Brexit discussion thread III

MBSnr

http://delano.lu/d/detail/news/brexit-talks-extremely-difficult-says-finmin/176484

Doesn't say much new, other than the fact that the UK is surely slowly going down the road of a customs union. What with the HoL knocking it back to the HoC, it's looking more like the Gov. will be forced down that road, faux protesting all the time to keep up appearances.

Thomas__.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

But then this raises more questions than it answers. Did she have no control over her own department that a decision she made was approved and put into action as soon as she left the office? So she is not racist, she is just incompetent.

I've read in Tim Shipman's book, Fall Out that May afforded vast amounts of power and control to her "chiefs", Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. This was probably what cost her the election. It stands to reason that they were allowed to run amok in the Home Office before she became PM. The Conservative party manifesto was written by Timothy and Ben Gumner with senior ministers like Jeremy Hunt having no input nor idea what was in store for their departments.

I don't know if she is racist. She might just think that the country is overpopulated. She even shoehorned her "tens of thousands" soundbyte in a speech gave before the referendum supporting Remain which resulted in her being sidelined. It's been Conservative party policy for some time so it's hardly anachronistic though why they just didn't cut EU migration back in 2010 and then actually try to work with the EU on some sort of compromise before this referendum is beyond me.

In my view, T. May is a racist and the worst and cruelest person that ever held offices as HS and PM. Wait until the hostile environment she created herself already when HS and continued to do so since she became PM will hit back on her. This doesn't stop with the recent Windrush scandal, it includes EU nationals living in the UK as well and by what is revealed since last week will certainly rather frighten EU nationals and make them leave the UK and I am not just referring to those on the cheap jobs I mean the high qualified staff as well. This is what she wants, to see them leave but as stupid as that woman is, she doesn't gives a damn about the consequences and those will be emense in regards of the NHS which was on the brink of collaps in December last year.

The reputation of the UK is already on a decline since the BrexitRef and it goes certainly further down in the light of the way how they treat foreign nationals and even those like the Windrush people who came to the UK decades ago as British Subjects and Citizens.

The Tory Party has gone extreme in order to compete with the UKIP and became more racist (or anti-migration) ever since.  

As for a compromise on migration with the EU, there were such negotiations when Cameron was PM and that before BrexitRef, but to no avail because free movement of EU citizens within the EU is one of the non-negotiable pillars of the EU. Other EU member states like Germany have introduced new legislation in order to curb abuse on their social benefits system by EU citizens from Eastern and South-Eastern EU countries who moved only for the sake of drawing social benefits. This seems to work by now but instead of adopting such legislation, the UK govt chosed to take the hard road and call for non-migration and that was the whole point the whole Brexit campaign was all about.

The hostile enivronment was set up by May as HS and it exacerbated during the BrexitRef campaign with UKIP and the Tories as well using the migration topic to get votes for leave. What happened in the wake of the BrexitRef result was going on for weeks and months and it was all over in the papers, even the Irish one. What did May against that when she took over from Cameron? Nothing but hot air and in fact, she didn't care for which I really assume that what was going was truely more up her street than to take action against it. This woman is inhumane and not just in regards of foreign nationals, but also towards her own people as they can die in hallways in hospitals which were overcrowded because the UK govt has done short cuts for that section over years. Now imagine as similar situation like that in last Winter and then having the EU nationals and others non-UK citizens who work there as nurses and medics left the country because of the hostile migration policy of this present government. The NHS will collaps not within a couple of days but probably within hours in one or two days.  

I am sorry to say that even when considering the comments of her opponents in the British media, there is still a certain percentage of British people who either are in full support of her or give their tacit approval by doing nothing and saying nothing against it. In some ways, they just let the ugly face of the sneaky and tricksy Brit rear his head.

J Mysterio

EdgeCase wrote: »

The concern I would have is that GDP and similar indicators are just crude measures of economic activity. You have to drill down into what that GDP is being generated by.

If it's just city trades, IP movements, etc it's as meaningless as Apple's accounting tweaks impacting GDP here. There's a lot of that goes on in the UK too due to the size of the financial sector and company HQs there. It's not entirely unlike Ireland in that regard, it's just bigger.

The danger is that Brexit will impact real, nuts and bolts businesses and many of them are core job creators and income producers.

I would caution against relying on the notion that you can easily sail through a 10% loss of GDP. It all depends which aspects of the economy are impacted.

Absolutely. The comparisons to 'Mad Max wasteland' are more true than false, and its not even funny. UK are in big trouble and refuse to see it. They are too proud.

MBSnr

Thomas__. wrote: »

I am sorry to say that even when considering the comments of her opponents in the British media, there is still a certain percentage of British people who either are in full support of her or give their tacit approval by doing nothing and saying nothing against it. In some ways, they just let the ugly face of the sneaky and tricksy Brit rear his head.

Yeap kind of it alright - saying nothing. From my experience it's a broad brush, generalisation thing that's instilled. How often have I read/heard similar to the below.

"We hate immigrants, but the Indian doctor who saved my wife's life is lovely".
"Send them all home... oh except Pawel. He's a great plumber".

However you could apply the above statements to Ireland and many other countries as well... Perhaps not on the same scale, but we certainly can't say the Brits are unique in this attitude.

As for sneaky and tricksy - It's the UK Gov. and politicians that are sneaky and tend to be the one's that try to pull a fast one. This trickles down somewhat to the more vocal, outspoken elements of society, but overall the vast amount of the UK general public aren't in the same vein as their Gov., which has managed to come across particularly badly in regards to Brexit (and their attitude to Ireland).

Zubeneschamali

J Mysterio wrote: »

Absolutely. The comparisons to 'Mad Max wasteland' are more true than false

https://twitter.com/greg_jon1/status/965866033759358976

Professor Moriarty

From an incident in Hull last Sunday:

"A Polish man was chased by a group of 20 men and beaten with a nailed plank of wood in a “racially aggravated assault” in Hull, police have said. Friends of the man, who has not been named, said they were chased by 20 men after being overheard speaking Polish."

And:

"The racist attack follows repeated warnings about a recent spike in violent crime on Orchard Park. Three people were stabbed in less than a month on the estate between February and March, including a 21-year-old woman who was killed.
The friend of the Polish victim attacked on Sunday said he was scared to leave his home and that it was not the first time the group had been racially abused. He said he had been trying to move out of Orchard Park for more than six months.
“This sort of thing happens nearly every day to Polish people here,” he told the Hull Daily Mail.
“I have been living here for five or six years, and to start with I didn’t have any problems. Then the gangs started to realise I was Polish, and I have had problems ever since. Everyone is worried about it now. It is definitely getting worse.”"

Thomas__.

MBSnr wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

I am sorry to say that even when considering the comments of her opponents in the British media, there is still a certain percentage of British people who either are in full support of her or give their tacit approval by doing nothing and saying nothing against it. In some ways, they just let the ugly face of the sneaky and tricksy Brit rear his head.

Yeap kind of it alright - saying nothing. From my experience it's a broad brush, generalisation thing that's instilled. How often have I read/heard similar to the below.

"We hate immigrants, but the Indian doctor who saved my wife's life is lovely".
"Send them all home... oh except Pawel. He's a great plumber".

However you could apply the above statements to Ireland and many other countries as well... Perhaps not on the same scale, but we certainly can't say the Brits are unique in this attitude.

As for sneaky and tricksy - It's the UK Gov. and politicians that are sneaky and tend to be the one's that try to pull a fast one. This trickles down somewhat to the more vocal, outspoken elements of society, but overall the vast amount of the UK general public aren't in the same vein as their Gov., which has managed to come across particularly badly in regards to Brexit (and their attitude to Ireland).

It is exactly the way how it all started in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, the same lines but when they came for those they exceptionalists wanted to keep, they turned away and looked into the other direction so that they could later say they didn't know what was going on.

As for the sneaky and tricksy Brit, it isn't just the UK govt, it is some part of the administration (up to the higher ranks) and not to forget those percentage of UK voters who voted for the Tories and the DUP (in NI). Of course you can find such people like these in every other European Country. The difference is as for today, they don't sit in governments in Western EU member states. It is quite similar in Hungary and Poland in regards of the attitude, but with the difference that these two countries have less EU nationals from other EU member states living there than of their own citizens living in other EU member states. Less to say about the amount of Muslims residing in Poland and Hungary.

EdgeCase

MBSnr: It's pretty universal. The Simpsons even captured it with their episode where Springfield votes on Proposition 24 which was a proposal to deport all immigrants. It was based on the fact that Mayor Quimby needed to create a smoke screen and find a scapegoat to blame a $5 tax increase on. The tax was increased to pay for a populist move responding to a demand for expensive Bear Patrol, driven by anti-bear hysteria.

Anyway, it turns out that Homer doesn't realise Apu is an immigrant and suddenly changes his mind having been a diehard proponent of the proposal, having realised that he knows someone in the situation. Also it gets revealed Mo is actually an undocumented immigrant and nobody ever noticed.

In the end, the proposition passes by a 95% majority, despite what looks like a successful campaign against it, but the only person deported is Groundskeeper Willie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Nothing

Back in the 1990s that show was an amazingly accurate cultural mirror.

MBSnr

EdgeCase wrote: »

MBSnr: It's pretty universal. The Simpsons even captured it with their episode where Springfield votes on Proposition 24 which was a proposal to deport all immigrants. It was based on the fact that Mayor Quimby needed to create a smoke screen and find a scapegoat to blame a $5 tax increase on. The tax was increased to pay for a populist move responding to a demand for expensive Bear Patrol, driven by anti-bear hysteria.

Anyway, it turns out that Homer doesn't realise Apu is an immigrant and suddenly changes his mind having been a diehard proponent of the proposal, having realised that he knows someone in the situation. Also it gets revealed Mo is actually an undocumented immigrant and nobody ever noticed.

In the end, the proposition passes by a 95% majority, despite what looks like a successful campaign against it, but the only person deported is Groundskeeper Willie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Nothing

Back in the 1990s that show was an amazingly accurate cultural mirror.

Yeah - Must catch up on the 100s of missing episodes.. I might be able to predict the future afterwards

Enzokk

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've read in Tim Shipman's book, Fall Out that May afforded vast amounts of power and control to her "chiefs", Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. This was probably what cost her the election. It stands to reason that they were allowed to run amok in the Home Office before she became PM. The Conservative party manifesto was written by Timothy and Ben Gumner with senior ministers like Jeremy Hunt having no input nor idea what was in store for their departments.

I don't know if she is racist. She might just think that the country is overpopulated. She even shoehorned her "tens of thousands" soundbyte in a speech gave before the referendum supporting Remain which resulted in her being sidelined. It's been Conservative party policy for some time so it's hardly anachronistic though why they just didn't cut EU migration back in 2010 and then actually try to work with the EU on some sort of compromise before this referendum is beyond me.

Well if her style of management is to delegate decision making to others she has to take responsibility for those decisions. It was her decision to trust others but the ultimate responsibility lies with the Home Secretary. Did anyone get fired for those vans? If not it seems to me that she was comfortable with the decision that was made.

As to whether she is racist/xenophobic, she was the only one of the ministers right after the referendum to not want to guarantee EU citizens their rights. Why?

Theresa May single-handedly blocked a plan to immediately guarantee the future rights of the 3m EU citizens in the UK last summer, George Osborne has revealed.

The then-Home Secretary was the only member of the Cabinet to oppose David Cameron, who “wanted to reassure EU citizens they would be allowed to stay”, after Brexit.

Brexit: Theresa May blocked plan to guarantee rights of EU citizens in the UK immediately after referendum

James O'Brien made the analogy on the hostile environment for illegal immigrants. If as a shop keeper you set out a policy that makes a hostile environment for shoplifters, you will inconvenience your other shoppers in the process. That is what we are seeing now, and that is what we will see with Brexit and EU citizens. To kick out the illegal EU immigrants the policies put in place will be an inconvenience to legal EU citizens. In the process, as we see with the Windrush story, innocent EU migrants will be treated with the same threats to try and catch the few illegal ones.

Thomas__.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

From an incident in Hull last Sunday:

"A Polish man was chased by a group of 20 men and beaten with a nailed plank of wood in a “racially aggravated assault” in Hull, police have said. Friends of the man, who has not been named, said they were chased by 20 men after being overheard speaking Polish."

And:

"The racist attack follows repeated warnings about a recent spike in violent crime on Orchard Park. Three people were stabbed in less than a month on the estate between February and March, including a 21-year-old woman who was killed.
The friend of the Polish victim attacked on Sunday said he was scared to leave his home and that it was not the first time the group had been racially abused. He said he had been trying to move out of Orchard Park for more than six months.
“This sort of thing happens nearly every day to Polish people here,” he told the Hull Daily Mail.
“I have been living here for five or six years, and to start with I didn’t have any problems. Then the gangs started to realise I was Polish, and I have had problems ever since. Everyone is worried about it now. It is definitely getting worse.”"

That is exactly one of the examples I was referring to in general. The harassment of Polish people living in the UK started the time the BrexitRef result was announced and continued for days in a row across the whole of England in which there was a majority vote for leave. There are plenty of stories on this topic, interview videos on the BBC and elsewhere. Some people have downplayed this, but I always opposed that by saying that the Poles are just the first they have a go at, other nationalities will not be excluded when it suits the bigot thugs. Just like some Irish expat I met on another online-forum. That chap was a far-right supporter, anti-Muslim and in approval of the EDL and Britain First. He is probably still convinced that just because he's Irish he'll have nothing to fear from them. I often told him that he might be most certainly be proved wrong by the very people he sympathises with, but to no avail. When things get worse, and after a hard Brexit is what the UK is about to exit the EU with, they will get worse and the bigot racists will have a go at anybody that doesn't looks like a stereotype Brit. With a govt like this present one in charge, they certainly feel free to act as they please.

Professor Moriarty

Thomas__. wrote: »

That is exactly one of the examples I was referring to in general. The harassment of Polish people living in the UK started the time the BrexitRef result was announced and continued for days in a row across the whole of England in which there was a majority vote for leave. There are plenty of stories on this topic, interview videos on the BBC and elsewhere. Some people have downplayed this, but I always opposed that by saying that the Poles are just the first they have a go at, other nationalities will not be excluded when it suits the bigot thugs. Just like some Irish expat I met on another online-forum. That chap was a far-right supporter, anti-Muslim and in approval of the EDL and Britain First. He is probably still convinced that just because he's Irish he'll have nothing to fear from them. I often told him that he might be most certainly be proved wrong by the very people he sympathises with, but to no avail. When things get worse, and after a hard Brexit is what the UK is about to exit the EU with, they will get worse and the bigot racists will have a go at anybody that doesn't looks like a stereotype Brit. With a govt like this present one in charge, they certainly feel free to act as they please.

Yes they will. They'll turn anyone without an English/Scottish/Welsh accent. And the Irish will be in the firing line again - I experienced some severe racism in England in the late 80s/early 90s. It's not so long ago.

The Irish will be demonised for a hard Brexit if the Border Issue isn't solved. There have been some fresh shoots of anti-Irish sentiment recently, not least from the new UKIP leader last November when he tweeted:

UK threatened by Ireland. A tiny country that relies on UK for its existence. We should advise, we are free to revoke common travel area.

Which he followed up with:

Ireland is like the weakest kid in the playground sucking up to the EU bullies.

Thomas__.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

That is exactly one of the examples I was referring to in general. The harassment of Polish people living in the UK started the time the BrexitRef result was announced and continued for days in a row across the whole of England in which there was a majority vote for leave. There are plenty of stories on this topic, interview videos on the BBC and elsewhere. Some people have downplayed this, but I always opposed that by saying that the Poles are just the first they have a go at, other nationalities will not be excluded when it suits the bigot thugs. Just like some Irish expat I met on another online-forum. That chap was a far-right supporter, anti-Muslim and in approval of the EDL and Britain First. He is probably still convinced that just because he's Irish he'll have nothing to fear from them. I often told him that he might be most certainly be proved wrong by the very people he sympathises with, but to no avail. When things get worse, and after a hard Brexit is what the UK is about to exit the EU with, they will get worse and the bigot racists will have a go at anybody that doesn't looks like a stereotype Brit. With a govt like this present one in charge, they certainly feel free to act as they please.

Yes they will. They'll turn anyone without an English/Scottish/Welsh accent. And the Irish will be in the firing line again - I experienced some severe racism in England in the late 80s/early 90s. It's not so long ago.

The Irish will be demonised for a hard Brexit if the Border Issue isn't solved. There have been some fresh shoots of anti-Irish sentiment recently, not least from the new UKIP leader last November when he tweeted:

UK threatened by Ireland. A tiny country that relies on UK for its existence. We should advise, we are free to revoke common travel area.

Which he followed up with:

Ireland is like the weakest kid in the playground sucking up to the EU bullies.

Thanks for that. I think that even such statements from the horses mouth won't make people like that chap I have mentioned to wake up. Politically the UKIP is on constant decline in the UK as the Tories have take up all the kippers stand for and implement such policies under May. There won't be any UK candidates for the EU Parliament Elections from 23rd to 26th May 2019 as one can assume that with this present UK govt, the UK will formally be out of the EU by 31st March 2019. So there is no need and also no chance for the kippers to have any mandate anywhere except in local UK councils, if they are not all be voted out in the upcoming local elections on 3rd May this year. In fact, UKIP is almost finished but what they achieved by their Brexit campaign will certainly lead to the break up of the UK by another Scottish IndyRef2 which the Scottish govt will press to get in the light of a hard Brexit which is to be expected. Then the Kippers and the DUPpers have f*cked up their beloved UK and what will be left is some sort of that 'Little England' they are so fond of and a NI which will be cut off from subsidies they received all over the decades from London. If that really is all going to happen, and the chances are growing that it will happen, I can't other than say that they have well deserved that for they have brought it all onto themselves. I pity the others who were always against that because they will have to suffer the consequences as well.

The Irish border issue wouldn't be that big of a problem if it wasn't for the DUP and their stupid insisting on NI leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market in order to be on a 'equal fotting' with GB for the sake of 'remaining British'. I can only hope that many more people will realise who is in fact to blame for that in the first place if there will be a hard border in Ireland once again and the UK will crash out with no deal because of that, as Mr Tusk has just warned the UK once again because of the border issue. Still, the UK govt is doing nothing to come up with some solution on their side because the DUP is breathing down the neck of May and she's bending to Foster. That's probably what the DUP was always dreaming about, having the UK govt at their balls and the hands on the levers without being in govt themselves. That's all thanks to the folly of Mrs May's decision to hold a snap GE last year in which she lost the majority she took over from Cameron.

It is good to see that the Irish govt and the EU is standing firm against those bullies and one will see whether the DUP will prevail in the end or not. Better hope that they won't for the sake of peace in Ireland.

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

Yeah - Must catch up on the 100s of missing episodes.. I might be able to predict the future afterwards

Stop at season 10.

EdgeCase

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes they will. They'll turn anyone without an English/Scottish/Welsh accent. And the Irish will be in the firing line again - I experienced some severe racism in England in the late 80s/early 90s. It's not so long ago.

Scottish accents can get you in trouble too.

https://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/crime/mum-to-be-jailed-for-race-hate-attack-on-scottish-woman-1-6658314

There have been incidents of people being told to "go home" on public transport in due to their Scottish accents and if you want too see the level of political debate that's going the term "poison dwarf" being used to refer to the Scottish First minister.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-candidate-apologises-for-calling-nicola-sturgeon-a-poison-dwarf-1-4421311

ancapailldorcha

Enzokk wrote: »

Well if her style of management is to delegate decision making to others she has to take responsibility for those decisions. It was her decision to trust others but the ultimate responsibility lies with the Home Secretary. Did anyone get fired for those vans? If not it seems to me that she was comfortable with the decision that was made.

I'm not defending her, just trying to shed a bit of light on how it happened. Ultimately, she's the boss so the buck stops with her.

Enzokk wrote: »

As to whether she is racist/xenophobic, she was the only one of the ministers right after the referendum to not want to guarantee EU citizens their rights. Why?

Same reason a lot of people voted to Leave, ie they didn't want them there to begin with.

Enzokk wrote: »

Brexit: Theresa May blocked plan to guarantee rights of EU citizens in the UK immediately after referendum

James O'Brien made the analogy on the hostile environment for illegal immigrants. If as a shop keeper you set out a policy that makes a hostile environment for shoplifters, you will inconvenience your other shoppers in the process. That is what we are seeing now, and that is what we will see with Brexit and EU citizens. To kick out the illegal EU immigrants the policies put in place will be an inconvenience to legal EU citizens. In the process, as we see with the Windrush story, innocent EU migrants will be treated with the same threats to try and catch the few illegal ones.

Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

Do not forget the Daily Express readers, or the Telegraph readers - they are just as rabid when it comes to immigrants.

Rjd2

flutered wrote: »

the new party when and if it launches, will not be allowed to get traction

Its an interesting debate. Corbyn's white walkers have already started the attacks "why they don't give that money to the NHS instead" and obviously the tories are hardly going to stand by idly. I think it would need a very charismatic leader and at the moment not sure who. People like Chuka and Saubry should not be leading any sort of party whatsoever in 2018. I'd warn them to keep Tony Blair away from the party also as he's such an easy target atm.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do not forget the Daily Express readers, or the Telegraph readers - they are just as rabid when it comes to immigrants.

The Express is basically Breitbart tbh. The Telegraph tbf isn't as hostile to immigrants, its still a relatively centre right newspaper.

Rjd2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

Tbf plenty on the right of the party thought it was dumb, Mogg criticised that stance a bit and pretty sure even Farage thought it was unfair.

Enzokk

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not defending her, just trying to shed a bit of light on how it happened. Ultimately, she's the boss so the buck stops with her.



Same reason a lot of people voted to Leave, ie they didn't want them there to begin with.



Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

I hope my reply didn't come across as asking you for answers or defending her. I was more asking a general question on the interesting information you provided. I was wondering out loud why she shouldn't be held responsible and if there really is any evidence that would indicate that she isn't racist.

I can see how she is a very capable politician. She doesn't take any responsibility and she hides away when there is trouble only to resurface when it seems safe to do so.

Thomas__.

Enzokk wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not defending her, just trying to shed a bit of light on how it happened. Ultimately, she's the boss so the buck stops with her.



Same reason a lot of people voted to Leave, ie they didn't want them there to begin with.



Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

I hope my reply didn't come across as asking you for answers or defending her. I was more asking a general question on the interesting information you provided. I was wondering out loud why she shouldn't be held responsible and if there really is any evidence that would indicate that she isn't racist.

I can see how she is a very capable politician. She doesn't take any responsibility and she hides away when there is trouble only to resurface when it seems safe to do so.

I don't see that sort of behaviour as attributes to a capable politician in a positive light. It is exactly that what brings more people to become frustrated by politics and politicians, turning away from it and not going to vote anymore. Such 'two-faced' characters like she is one of many are the types which many people are fed up with, only serving their own interests and that is above all to remain in power no matter what.

Apart from the tabloids and the diehard Tories, there is an increase in opinions by readers on a UK media outlet that call for her resign. Not the first time, it goes on for a considerable time since she became PM and that is due to her failings in many ways, in Brexit, the NHS crisis, the recent Windrush scandal and above all the perceived lack of leadership on her own as leader of the Tory Party and as PM. In fact, she appears like a puppet haning on the strings others, much propably her own enemies from within her own party, are pulling the strings.

I don't know what sort of proof some people yet need to realise of what mindset May really is and frankly, the way the Windrush People are treated in the past eight years (one should really consider that time frame) which came legally to the UK as British subjects and are in fact British citizens, it is more than obvious that this is blatant racism. The way she handles this matter and more over the way she set up the way to have them treated that bad is for me more than enough proof of her racist mindset. She apologised to them but she didn't really mean it. She has no sense of humanity herself and that was proved by the way she handled the recent NHS crisis.

May is in many ways worse than Thatcher, in very many ways.

Thomas__.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

Well if her style of management is to delegate decision making to others she has to take responsibility for those decisions. It was her decision to trust others but the ultimate responsibility lies with the Home Secretary. Did anyone get fired for those vans? If not it seems to me that she was comfortable with the decision that was made.

I'm not defending her, just trying to shed a bit of light on how it happened. Ultimately, she's the boss so the buck stops with her.

Enzokk wrote: »

As to whether she is racist/xenophobic, she was the only one of the ministers right after the referendum to not want to guarantee EU citizens their rights. Why?

Same reason a lot of people voted to Leave, ie they didn't want them there to begin with.

Enzokk wrote: »

Brexit: Theresa May blocked plan to guarantee rights of EU citizens in the UK immediately after referendum

James O'Brien made the analogy on the hostile environment for illegal immigrants. If as a shop keeper you set out a policy that makes a hostile environment for shoplifters, you will inconvenience your other shoppers in the process. That is what we are seeing now, and that is what we will see with Brexit and EU citizens. To kick out the illegal EU immigrants the policies put in place will be an inconvenience to legal EU citizens. In the process, as we see with the Windrush story, innocent EU migrants will be treated with the same threats to try and catch the few illegal ones.

Of course. It's an absurd, petty, ill-conceived and malevolent policy designed to sate the right wing of the Conservative party and Daily Mail readers.

As I know that you're following up the UK media and that you've relatives of yourself in the UK from which you might probably get first hand informations, I wonder how you can still speculate about her real motives. It all has been cristal clear and the more she does wrong the more in emerges what sort of a character she really is.

Leroy42

This paragraph, to me at least, sums up the UK approach to Brexit.

The government wants the EU’s “geographical indications” system to keep protecting British foods such as Stilton and Cornish pasties from imitation after Brexit – but has been unable to secure an agreement with Brussels on the issue because it is not committing to protecting EU products in return.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-regional-specialities-eu-protect-trade-deal-europe-cheese-food-drink-wine-a8312171.html

They want to keep what they have, based on rules EU designed, but are not willing to give the same in return.

Thomas__.

Leroy42 wrote: »

This paragraph, to me at least, sums up the UK approach to Brexit.

The government wants the EU’s “geographical indications” system to keep protecting British foods such as Stilton and Cornish pasties from imitation after Brexit – but has been unable to secure an agreement with Brussels on the issue because it is not committing to protecting EU products in return.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-regional-specialities-eu-protect-trade-deal-europe-cheese-food-drink-wine-a8312171.html

They want to keep what they have, based on rules EU designed, but are not willing to give the same in return.

I'm not surprised as they keep on going with their cherry picking.

Sam Russell

Thomas__. wrote: »

She apologised to them but she didn't really mean it.

There is a lot of apologies floating about at the moment, like the Magdalene women, but it did not extend to those who were trapped in the Magdalene system but not actually in the laundries themselves, but worked in them as unpaid slave.

I have long help the view that apologies mean nothing unless wrapped up in a £5 note. No money as compo, then no apology - if it costs them nothing to apologise, then that is the value of the apology.

ancapailldorcha

Enzokk wrote: »

I hope my reply didn't come across as asking you for answers or defending her. I was more asking a general question on the interesting information you provided. I was wondering out loud why she shouldn't be held responsible and if there really is any evidence that would indicate that she isn't racist.

I can see how she is a very capable politician. She doesn't take any responsibility and she hides away when there is trouble only to resurface when it seems safe to do so.

Ah right.

She has a reputation as being a very capable administrator and operator. It's when she has to engage with the nonsense of Politics like interviews and such that she falls apart. In fairness, no politician will ever accept responsibility for any mistakes or wrongdoing, especially in this day and age. I'm an EU migrant so it's not like I'm a Conservative voter or anything by the way.

Ultimately though people voted Tory and by virtue/failure of FPTP they got in. I'm disappointed that the Lib Dems let so much of this slide though.

EdgeCase

Leroy42 wrote: »

This paragraph, to me at least, sums up the UK approach to Brexit.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-regional-specialities-eu-protect-trade-deal-europe-cheese-food-drink-wine-a8312171.html

They want to keep what they have, based on rules EU designed, but are not willing to give the same in return.

How in the name of ... do they think that's a reasonable negotiating position?
I would be personally rather annoyed if the EU were to allow itself to ridden over like that. It's absolute nonsense.

The sheer arrogance is mind boggling. Who do they think they are?!

Nody

EdgeCase wrote: »

How in the name of ... do they think that's a reasonable negotiating position?
I would be personally rather annoyed if the EU were to allow itself to ridden over like that. It's absolute nonsense.

The sheer arrogance is mind boggling. Who do they think they are?!

They are simply applying the Sovjet (and Putin) style of negotiation; what is ours is ours; everything else is up for negotiation. Honestly though I think they simply think they can use it as leverage when in practice it's a binary decision (either both support it or neither will) and both will look at enforcing "their" rules in their country. The problem for UK is that USA, Canada etc. are not happy with such geographical rules and will push for exclusions in any FTA and UK no longer as EU to back them up in those discussions. Hence I'd expect to see some of them at least ending up being sacrificed for FTAs. Not bigger once such as Cornish pasty or Scottish Whiskey but several of the less well known once I could see being excluded or small printed away.

Enzokk

Thomas__. wrote: »

I don't see that sort of behaviour as attributes to a capable politician in a positive light. It is exactly that what brings more people to become frustrated by politics and politicians, turning away from it and not going to vote anymore. Such 'two-faced' characters like she is one of many are the types which many people are fed up with, only serving their own interests and that is above all to remain in power no matter what.

Apart from the tabloids and the diehard Tories, there is an increase in opinions by readers on a UK media outlet that call for her resign. Not the first time, it goes on for a considerable time since she became PM and that is due to her failings in many ways, in Brexit, the NHS crisis, the recent Windrush scandal and above all the perceived lack of leadership on her own as leader of the Tory Party and as PM. In fact, she appears like a puppet haning on the strings others, much propably her own enemies from within her own party, are pulling the strings.

I don't know what sort of proof some people yet need to realise of what mindset May really is and frankly, the way the Windrush People are treated in the past eight years (one should really consider that time frame) which came legally to the UK as British subjects and are in fact British citizens, it is more than obvious that this is blatant racism. The way she handles this matter and more over the way she set up the way to have them treated that bad is for me more than enough proof of her racist mindset. She apologised to them but she didn't really mean it. She has no sense of humanity herself and that was proved by the way she handled the recent NHS crisis.

May is in many ways worse than Thatcher, in very many ways.

I didn't mean it in a positive way. What I meant was she was skilled at playing the politics game and has risen to the top. The history books will judge her in the future but right now she is arguably vying for the spot as the worst PM with David Cameron. That is not someone who is capable in a positive light, that is someone that plays the game to rise to the top but is found out when the pressure is on.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ah right.

She has a reputation as being a very capable administrator and operator. It's when she has to engage with the nonsense of Politics like interviews and such that she falls apart. In fairness, no politician will ever accept responsibility for any mistakes or wrongdoing, especially in this day and age. I'm an EU migrant so it's not like I'm a Conservative voter or anything by the way.

Ultimately though people voted Tory and by virtue/failure of FPTP they got in. I'm disappointed that the Lib Dems let so much of this slide though.

She seemed to do quite well in the clip in this Question Time episode from 2004 though.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/986977664731942912

I wish politicians would follow their own rhetoric sometimes.

ArmaniJeanss

Telegraph leading with a big story that EU/UK negotiations have hit a huge stumbling block with the UKs 3 border proposals being rejected.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/04/19/exclusive-eu-rejects-theresa-mays-brexit-irish-border-solution/


The EU has comprehensively rejected British proposals for avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland in a move which will cast serious doubt on the UK’s ability to leave the customs union, The Telegraph has learned.
Senior EU diplomatic sources said that Mrs May’s plan for avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland was subjected to a “systematic and forensic annihilation” this week at a meeting between senior EU officials and Olly Robbins, the UK’s lead Brexit negotiator.

“It was a detailed and forensic rebuttal,” added the source who was directly briefed on the meeting in Brussels on Wednesday. “It was made clear that none of the UK’s customs options will work. None of them.”



...continues behind paywall.

Econ_

Who would have ever guessed?

Professor Moriarty

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Telegraph leading with a big story that EU/UK negotiations have hit a huge stumbling block with the UKs 3 border proposals being rejected.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/04/19/exclusive-eu-rejects-theresa-mays-brexit-irish-border-solution/


The EU has comprehensively rejected British proposals for avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland in a move which will cast serious doubt on the UK’s ability to leave the customs union, The Telegraph has learned.
Senior EU diplomatic sources said that Mrs May’s plan for avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland was subjected to a “systematic and forensic annihilation” this week at a meeting between senior EU officials and Olly Robbins, the UK’s lead Brexit negotiator.

“It was a detailed and forensic rebuttal,” added the source who was directly briefed on the meeting in Brussels on Wednesday. “It was made clear that none of the UK’s customs options will work. None of them.”



...continues behind paywall.

The headline points to the UK staying in the Customs Union:

Exclusive: EU rejects Theresa May's Brexit Irish border solution as doubts grow over whether UK can leave customs union


Asa Bennett, an ardent Brexiteer, floated the same thought last week in The Telegraph. Despite the constant drumbeat of Brexity rhetoric, it might be that the Tories, via their rag, are quietly beginning to soften the Leavers up so that they can wrap their heads around the idea.

Capt'n Midnight

This should clear up any confusion about what Brexit was for and how future immigration policy will go.

The UK has a more "welcoming" attitude to immigrants than any country in the EU, Michael Gove has claimed.

And he hit back at claims the voters who backed Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum were motivated by what he called "darker feelings" about immigration and had led to an increase in racism.
...
"The British people have a robust and pragmatic and liberal approach. They want to welcome people here who want to work."

Capt'n Midnight

Anthracite wrote: »

I presume the invisible border IT project they are working on is on-budget and will be delivered within the year?

Yeah, about that ...

Compare it to the pre-existing customs upgrade which was in progress before Brexit, It's going badly, and it wasn't due till after Brexit. And the new volumes are way higher than panned. Moving the deadline of a big software project forward while you still don't have a clear of how the requirements have changed is a recipe for disaster.

Throwing extra resources at IT megaprojects is like expecting nine women to deliver a baby in a month.

And that upgrade is just for the normal declared stuff at ferry ports. 400 border crossings with deprived areas on both sides , people with dual nationality too, and they are proposing what is more or less a honesty system in places where Cash for Ash / Burn to Earn is a thing.

Hurrache

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Telegraph leading with a big story that EU/UK negotiations have hit a huge stumbling block with the UKs 3 border proposals being rejected.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/04/19/exclusive-eu-rejects-theresa-mays-brexit-irish-border-solution/.

Screen grab of the story here
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/987088741914333190?s=19

fash

Article available in full here:
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph/20180420/281543701520989
Stand out quotes from the article:
"The EU's Northern Ireland gamble is more proof that it is not a liberal trading bloc but an authoritarian political project... It is revealing that an EU Ambassador he would like to know how to open up a business in Ireland after Brexit because under the British plan, he would be rolling in cash. That is rather the point. The British have sought to build a future that is light on rules and enriched both sides. Its perspective is pro-business. The EU by contrast is motivated by politics. It wants to humiliate us, to bind us to its regulations in perpetuity"

I would note that the ambassador's joke to open a business was "because it is going to be a great business if there are no customs controls".
It would appear that the journalist is in favour of criminal activity and believes encouraging that is precisely the point of Brexit/ their suggested solution to NI.

Enzokk

Fascinating how the same story from the same reporter for me reads differently depending where you read it. From the twitter link from Gavan Reilly the story reads about how the proposals from the UK cannot work for the EU on the border. They have been rebutted and the reasons given why and the UK must come back with proposals that can work. The joke by the ambassador is to show why it cannot work, because NI will both be inside and outside the EU customs union and with both a border and no border in Ireland to the UK it would be easy to make money by transporting goods without tariffs.

Then you have the pressreader link by fash from the same reporter. Here there is more detail that Michel Barnier has suspended trade talks I would assume due to the border issue. But there is more personal comment as well it seems from the reporter in this story. The same joke is there but now we have a comment on it,

It is revealing that an EU ambassador joked he would like to know how to set up a business in Ireland after Brexit because, under the British plan, he would be rolling in cash. That is rather the point. The UK has sought through talks to build a future that is light on rules and enriches both sides. Its perspective is pro-business. The EU, by contrast, is motivated by politics. It wants to humiliate us, to bind us to its regulations in perpetuity.

So just in case we thought the Telegraph was seeing the light we see that it is in fact not so. The EU has shattered the dreams of Brexit UK that would have enriched both sides. This would have been done with light rules, which still leaves so many questions but when you just read it without thinking it actually makes sense. Why is the EU being unreasonable here when it is in their interest? With just a few rules (is this more or less than right now though, its not clear) both countries can be happy apparently.

The writer continues,

In which case, the Remainer case continues, is there really any point to leaving the EU at all? This is the endgame for the EU – to make the process of leaving so expensive, so complicated and so diluted that Britain declares to the world that it was wrong even to try and, please, “can we stay put?” This would, of course, be a reversal of the democratic verdict of the 2016 referendum and nothing less than a national humiliation.

Theresa May has to tell the EU that Northern Ireland is not a pawn in its game. She must stand up to the EU and make it clear that Britain seeks a border that is as open as possible, that helps sustain the peace process and which upholds the territorial integrity of the UK. She must come up with a solution, not a fudge.

Three highlighted areas, firstly the EU's endgame is to get the best deal possible. If the UK wants to have its own trade deals then the EU will work to get the best deal possible within those parameters. Following that is the emotive phrase, national humiliation. Is it any wonder we see people sticking to a opinion that seems so unreasonable? If they move from wanting Brexit they will be humiliated. Not only themselves personally but everyone else, including the queen will have this over their heads for the rest of their lives. They will not be able to look another person in the eye due to the humiliation.

The third highlighted paragraph says it all really. NI is not a pawn to be used, the threats that the GFA can be discarded as it's not the same I suppose, but in any case the PM should now tell the EU the UK wants the following.

Open Border,
Retains the GFA
No borders between the UK nations
Still allows UKs own trade deals
It cannot be a fudge.

This is what the proposals were that the EU shot down. They were trying to have all that cake and eat it. It seems that it is beyond the comprehension of the journalist to see this.

Peregrinus

Thanks, fash, and thanks, Enzokk. The link to the full article is useful, and reading the full article casts a very different light than reading just the extracts that I have seen so far. And Enzokk's analysis of the article is brilliant.

Couple of thoughts from me:

1. It's very striking that the article so openly blends reportage of an exclusive story, and editorial comment on its implications - and that in a page 1 lead. In the good old days a newspaper with pretensions to quality like the Telegraph was careful to distinguish factual news reportage from the opinions of a columnist, or even the opinions of the editor. Mixing them like this is extraordinary.

2. Although the article fulminates against the EU, I think it's actually an attempt to undermine the British government's position.

3. The British government's position, as I see it, is that the fleshing out, and writing into the Withdrawal Agreement, of the UK's backstop commitment of "full regulatory alignment" in NI is acutely embarassing to them, and highlights the contraditions inherent in their own red lines. Therefore, they have said that "no UK government could accept this". But, rather than propose a version of the backstop that they think a UK government could accept, they have preferred to focus attention on measures which will avoid having the backstop apply at all.

4. These are (a) a super duper trade deal, or (b) magical border technology, but they have to be a deal, or technology, which the EU is satisfied with. It's widely believed that the UK will be unable to propose either a deal or functional technology that will satisfy the EU.

5. Even if that's true, though, the super deal/magic technology are still politically useful. So long as the UK government talking about these, they can maintain that there is no need/will be no need for the backstop, and therefore they don't have to engage with the details of the backstop.

6. They can, thefefore, continue to maintain that they will not agree with the EU-proposed backstop until, true to form, at the last possible minute they cave and accept it. This will be in about September of this year. Then they move to saying that, even though they have accepted that it will be in the Withdrawal Agreement, this doesn't matter because they don't accept that the backstop will ever actually come into effect because, before it is due to do so (in January 2021, on the current timetable), the UK and the EU will have reached agreement on the deal/the technology which make a backstop unnecessary.

7. They can keep up this line until January 2021. Or so they hope, anyway.

8. Except that they can't keep it up if, at some point before that, they stop talking to the EU about the deal/the technology. At that point they have to accept that the backstop is now the only show in town.

9. In short, the UK government doesn't really care whether the talks about the deal/the technology are, or can be, successful. All it cares about is that the talks keep going.

10. The Telegraph article is an attempt to sabotage talks on this point, by emphasising that the EU is never going to agree to the UK's proposals. If the talks stop before September of this year, the UK government can't sign up to a withdrawal agreement with the backstop in it, and still claim that it doesn't matter because the backstop will never take effect. So they'll be forced either to agree that the backstop will take effect, which may provoke a rebellion from the DUP or ultra-Brexiter backbenchers or both, or to reject the Withdrawal Agreement and aim for a no-deal Brexit, which will provoke a rebellion from everybody who is not actually certifiably insane. Either is likely to bring down May.

Thomas__.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

I hope my reply didn't come across as asking you for answers or defending her. I was more asking a general question on the interesting information you provided. I was wondering out loud why she shouldn't be held responsible and if there really is any evidence that would indicate that she isn't racist.

I can see how she is a very capable politician. She doesn't take any responsibility and she hides away when there is trouble only to resurface when it seems safe to do so.

Ah right.

She has a reputation as being a very capable administrator and operator. It's when she has to engage with the nonsense of Politics like interviews and such that she falls apart. In fairness, no politician will ever accept responsibility for any mistakes or wrongdoing, especially in this day and age. I'm an EU migrant so it's not like I'm a Conservative voter or anything by the way.

Ultimately though people voted Tory and by virtue/failure of FPTP they got in. I'm disappointed that the Lib Dems let so much of this slide though.

Me too, as the LibDems would be the only real alternative in this current situation where the govt and Labour as the bigger opposition party are both pro-Brexit. Pity that many voters still punish the LibDems for their commitment as junior coalition partner in Camerons govt.

Thomas__.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

This paragraph, to me at least, sums up the UK approach to Brexit.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-regional-specialities-eu-protect-trade-deal-europe-cheese-food-drink-wine-a8312171.html

They want to keep what they have, based on rules EU designed, but are not willing to give the same in return.

How in the name of ... do they think that's a reasonable negotiating position?
I would be personally rather annoyed if the EU were to allow itself to ridden over like that. It's absolute nonsense.

The sheer arrogance is mind boggling. Who do they think they are?!

The many deluded Brexiteers still think that they have an Empire. Hence the arrogance of them. The cluelessness and the stupidity they performed and still perform in their Brexit negotiations contrasts that but also proves their delusions.

Thomas__.

Enzokk wrote: »

I didn't mean it in a positive way. What I meant was she was skilled at playing the politics game and has risen to the top. The history books will judge her in the future but right now she is arguably vying for the spot as the worst PM with David Cameron. That is not someone who is capable in a positive light, that is someone that plays the game to rise to the top but is found out when the pressure is on.

That's quite right and I take your point as I agree with you on what you said. Still politicians like her are all over the place these days and concluding from your post, they are the product of their parties and the system they keep therefore there are no visionaries and decent politicians to vote for cos such people don't make it to the top. Democracy and politics suffer from this because it leaves the voters less or no real alternatives to vote for and what presents itself as an alternative are people from the extreme edges of the political spectrum. The polarisation in politics that took hold in recent years and exacerbates on emotional topics that dominate the daily debates (such like Brexit, Immigration, radical Islamism and the terrorism that comes from it) makes it even harder for the moderate ones to not just get heard and listened to it even deprives them of votes necessary to overcome this current polarisation.

Politicians like May are no good to improve anything, they just make things worse. Weak opposition leaders like Corbyn contribute to that because they represent no real alternative to the others as well, they are just the smaller evil to choose from.

Thomas__.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

This should clear up any confusion about what Brexit was for and how  future immigration policy will go.

The UK has a more "welcoming" attitude to immigrants than any country in the EU, Michael Gove has claimed.

And he hit back at claims the voters who backed Brexit in the 2016 EU referendum were motivated by what he called "darker feelings" about immigration and had led to an increase in racism.
...
"The British people have a robust and pragmatic and liberal approach. They want to welcome people here who want to work."

The current reality in the UK proves Mr Gove being either a liar or someone who's cut off from reality in his own country and from the doings of his government. Otherwise there would not be such an harassment towards EU nationals and the Windrush scandal had never happened.

Peregrinus

Michael Gove wrote:

"The British people have a robust and pragmatic and liberal approach. They want to welcome people here who want to work."

". . . which is why the EU's free movement of labour is wholly unnacceptable to us." :rolleyes:

ancapailldorcha

Thomas__. wrote: »

The current reality in the UK proves Mr Gove being either a liar or someone who's cut off from reality in his own country and from the doings of his government. Otherwise there would not be such an harassment towards EU nationals and the Windrush scandal had never happened.

I would argue that the UK is by and large a very welcoming country. Remeber that well below half of people vote for the Tories. The dysfunctional voting system is what keeps them in while punishing anyone with fresh ideas.

Gove is one of the less privileged of his party so hearing him come out with this sort of nonsense is bemusing to say the least. While the Lib Dems must share some of the responsibility for the 2014 Act, they wouldn't have introduced it were they in government alone. It was very much a sop to the Tory right and immigration skeptics in Tory heartlands along with a feeble, incompetent and petty attempt to push the "tens of thousands" dogma.

Thomas__.

Thomas__. wrote: »

The many deluded Brexiteers still think that they have an Empire. Hence the arrogance of them. The cluelessness and the stupidity they performed and still perform in their Brexit negotiations contrasts that but also proves their delusions.

It will be quite amusing if Charles is not confirmed as head of the commonwealth after the Queen.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43833029

Peregrinus

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It will be quite amusing if Charles is not confirmed as head of the commonwealth after the Queen.

He will be. "Head of the Commonwealth" is a title with no powers or functions attached. The Commonwealth as an organisation can function perfectly well without a "Head". The only point of having a "Head" is to give the British monarch a role in the Commonwealth; the title was introduced when India became a republic, and for the first time the Commonwealth included a member which did not have the British monarch as head of state. Being "Head" of the Commonwealth gives the Queen a connection to each member state which doesn't depend on her being Queen of it.

If the British monarch isn't the Head of the Commonwealth, there is literally no point at all to having a Head. So the choice isn't so much "should it be the British monarch or someone else?" but "should the Commonwealth have a head or not?"

Thomas__.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

The current reality in the UK proves Mr Gove being either a liar or someone who's cut off from reality in his own country and from the doings of his government. Otherwise there would not be such an harassment towards EU nationals and the Windrush scandal had never happened.

I would argue that the UK is by and large a very welcoming country. Remeber that well below half of people vote for the Tories. The dysfunctional voting system is what keeps them in while punishing anyone with fresh ideas.

Gove is one of the less privileged of his party so hearing him come out with this sort of nonsense is bemusing to say the least. While the Lib Dems must share some of the responsibility for the 2014 Act, they wouldn't have introduced it were they in government alone. It was very much a sop to the Tory right and immigration skeptics in Tory heartlands along with a feeble, incompetent and petty attempt to push the "tens of thousands" dogma.

There is the official 'face' and there is the private one. It always depends on who one meets. There are plenty of stories to this. I even have one of my own from my late Grandmother who came to Northern England around the late 1940s and had to start form nothing there, learning the language and integrating into the English society. I remember her telling me that what she very often heard was 'bloody foreigners' and 'where are you from' (cos she always spoke English with an accent). As I said, this is a matter where individuality and individuals come in, what the government policy is makes the decisive reputation to the world. How the govt handles abuse towards foreign nationals by their 'natives' adds to it.

Recent examples are rather deterring foreign nationals (including EU nationals) to go to the UK for work and that applies for all sorts of employees with lesser and higher qualifications. Not less of those EU nationals already settled in the UK are seriously considering and also preparing to leave the UK because the uncertainty regarding their residence status continues and is not answered yet by the UK govt and it appears that the UK govt with this present PM has no much interest to take the uncertainty away from those people, rather playing with it and reckoning with them leaving the UK rather than remaining.

I am aware of the other roughly 50% of Britons who don't vote Tory and some days it is hard for me to bear that in mind when I see what this present UK govt is doing and ignoring.

There are some interesting new articles in the Guardian to that topic if you're interested in reading them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/19/civil-servants-union-boss-dave-penman-hits-back-at-rudd-windrush-blame

https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2018/apr/19/ministers-home-office-officials-created-windrush-scandal

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/19/theresa-may-was-not-opposed-to-go-home-vans-official-accounts-suggest

I know about the comments from those Britons on the Guardian who are opposing all that and this govt, but they can do nothing but just write against this govt cos for the time being there is no snap GE in sight to vote the Tories out of power.

One has to look at both sides to get the bigger picture, but as hard as I try to keep the balance, my high regards for the UK are already Fading away with this Brexit madness and these hostilities non-Britons have to face in the past couple of years which has grown worse since BrexitRef. This UK which emerges since the BrexitRef is not the UK I once valued, certainly not and if it will lead to the break up of it, with Scotland going independent, frankly, I would just say good for the Scots to rid themselves of this nasty and hostile environment the Tories have created and are still persuing.

52% of the UK population has gone insane with their Brexit obsession and they might have to learn it the hard way how utterly wrong they are. I still pity the other 48% who are against Brexit and still stand for this world open and welcoming UK, but it appears that they are incapable to reverse the course the UK is on.

Thomas__.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

The many deluded Brexiteers still think that they have an Empire. Hence the arrogance of them. The cluelessness and the stupidity they performed and still perform in their Brexit negotiations contrasts that but also proves their delusions.

It will be quite amusing if Charles is not confirmed as head of the commonwealth after the Queen.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43833029

That of course would make me chuckle.

Leroy42

Tony Connolly was on RTE 1 this morning and he basically rubbished the Telegraph story on the basis that no new proposal had been submitted and therefore there was nothing to forensically dismiss.

He stated that ideas had been put forward in the meetings, mainly in line with what had previously been proposed by the UK (and rejected) and he wondering why the Telegraph was running a story like this.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

Tony Connolly was on RTE 1 this morning and he basically rubbished the Telegraph story on the basis that no new proposal had been submitted and therefore there was nothing to forensically dismiss.

He stated that ideas had been put forward in the meetings, mainly in line with what had previously been proposed by the UK (and rejected) and he wondering why the Telegraph was running a story like this.

As I say above, I think they are trying to undermine May.