Brexit discussion thread III

FrancieBrady

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes but one swallow does not make a summer.

You would like if Irish TD's adopted a consistent sensible approach with national politics. Brexit so far is like we are behaving ourselves because A we know it's serious and B we don't want to embarrass ourselves in front of the Europeans.

I don't think it was that at all.
I think we approached it very assuredly and confidently.
Nothing to do with the old hat doffing inferiority.

Yeh, one swallow does not make a summer but it was a good feeling.

Jayop

I think it's purely because to a party they seem to have decided to take party politics out of it which is really admirable from all of them. Point scoring would be very tempting here and none of them have tried it as far as I can see so well done to all involved. Hopefully they keep it up.

Panrich

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think it was that at all.
I think we approached it very assuredly and confidently.
Nothing to do with the old hat doffing inferiority.

Yeh, one swallow does not make a summer but it was a good feeling.

I'm a proud Mayo man but I have to admit that changing Taoisigh in the last year was a good move. For all his poppy wearing, Leo has proven himself to be a very solid negotiator on our behalf. I now have great faith in both him and Coveney. Compared to May and Davis, they are proving adept on the international stage.

I have to mention the opposition parties here too.

Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein have both donned the green jersey and to their detriment if polls are to be believed. Both have taken one for the team, but the national interest means something to our politicians.

It's gratifying to see how our politicians behave in the national interest compared to the rudderless ****show across the water.

An Ciarraioch

Even the Daily Mail are surprisingly positive, according to the man who posts tomorrow's UK front pages every night:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hendopolis

FrancieBrady

Panrich wrote: »

I'm a proud Mayo man but I have to admit that changing Taoisigh in the last year was a good move. For all his poppy wearing, Leo has proven himself to be a very solid negotiator on our behalf. I now have great faith in both him and Coveney. Compared to May and Davis, they are proving adept on the international stage.

I have to mention the opposition parties here too.

Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein have both donned the green jersey and to their detriment if polls are to be believed. Both have taken one for the team, but the national interest means something to our politicians.

It's gratifying to see how our politicians behave in the national interest compared to the rudderless ****show across the water.

Not to detract but I think it was Coveney who led on this. He just seems very together and on top of the brief.
Agree on the team thing. I have no doubt there are tears and gnashing of teeth ahead but it was well handled and played. Particularly not responding to the baiting of the various DUP heads sent out to do just that.
It made them look particularly bad and revealed just who they are to quite a few people, i would imagine.

Professor Moriarty

selectamatic wrote: »

There has been some talk of it in the media alright it's quite coincidental really that such a deal should be completed during brexit.

Like the EU now, Japan for many years particularly during the 80's and 90's was seen as the bogeyman by the UK. Killing the home grown car industry among other manufacturing industries with superior and often cheaper alternatives. And similarly to nowadays the British media made sure to stick the boot in and stir up us VS them sentiment at every opportunity.



Germany is coming under pressure due their over reliance on diesel engineering during the last 10 years. Deals between German marques and Japanese marques are already afoot for the sharing of hybrid and electric technology so in effect this deal may not be too bad for the German car industry either as it may make such deals easier in the future.

Interestingly, it took four years to negotiate and won't come into effect until 2019. So, hypothetically speaking, if a country were to leave the EU in 2019 they might sustain serious damage to their trade with Japan while they were negotiating a brand new trade agreement.

Rjd2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Even the Daily Mail are surprisingly positive, according to the man who posts tomorrow's UK front pages every night:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hendopolis

The Express which is the thinking man's breitbart:pac: seems happy also. Wow.:eek:

Panrich

Panrich wrote: »

It's gratifying to see how our politicians behave in the national interest compared to the rudderless ****show across the water.

It seems a rare feeling for any country's citizens really. The EU had our backs, but the EU is 100x times our size, and Varadkar played the part and represented Ireland as a solid and trustworthy nation that was worth the effort.

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

That Japan deal is interesting, in that on paper it would seem to adversely effect one of Germany's biggest industries (auto) and benefit two of Ireland's (dairy, beef).

Thank God we've been pumping out Irish bars all over the world to get our name known before deals like this. I'm barely even joking.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Interestingly, it took four years to negotiate and won't come into effect until 2019. So, hypothetically speaking, if a country were to leave the EU in 2019 they might sustain serious damage to their trade with Japan while they were negotiating a brand new trade agreement.

I personally wouldn't fancy negotiating a trade agreement with a country like Japan after they've just secured a much bigger one. The fact that these agreements take so long, when they're mostly based on specific industries, should be a reminder that seven years for the Canada deal isn't a big outlier. Good luck to the UK starting from scratch around the world.

MPFGLB

So the Telegraph is not happy and says UK to stay in single market and customs union till at least 2021

So how is this a guarantee of a soft border ..I dont understand

What is to stop UK removing itself after 2021 ?

Where will NI/Irish alignment be then ?

The devil is in the detail

I think todays relief will metamorphosize soon into something that most wont want

Michael Gove is already saying UK can change the deal in the future :rolleyes:

Junkyard Tom

MPFGLB wrote: »

Michael Gove is already saying UK can change the deal in the future :rolleyes:

That odious little alienesque twerp was fully against the Good Friday Agreement and considered it a capitulation to the Provos.

Anyway, the Tories will be out of government in 2022, if not well before then, so won't be doing anything that might further erode their power, they've been taking a pasting in local elections in Britain and haven't even absorbed the UKIP vote.

blackcard

I think Varadkar and Coveney will be delighted to be called 'cynical, green, aggressive and partisan' by Sammy Wilson in a very aggressive tone I would expect both of them to be partisan and green. I would expect them to be firm. The people who have come across as cynical and aggressive are Arlene, Nigel and Sammy.
FF, SF, Lab and others deserve great credit for their unified support which strengthened Ireland's hand. So do the Civil Servants who must have worked hard in getting the total backing of the EU. When politiciand and civil servants mess up, they are rightly criticised. Today, they deserve a pat on the back. There is still a huge battle ahead. If somehow they could manage it so there would be no East West tariffs and maintain the common travel area, they will have done enormous good.

steddyeddy

blackcard wrote: »

I think Varadkar and Coveney will be delighted to be called 'cynical, green, aggressive and partisan' by Sammy Wilson in a very aggressive tone I would expect both of them to be partisan and green. I would expect them to be firm. The people who have come across as cynical and aggressive are Arlene, Nigel and Sammy.
FF, SF, Lab and others deserve great credit for their unified support which strengthened Ireland's hand. So do the Civil Servants who must have worked hard in getting the total backing of the EU. When politiciand and civil servants mess up, they are rightly criticised. Today, they deserve a pat on the back. There is still a huge battle ahead. If somehow they could manage it so there would be no East West tariffs and maintain the common travel area, they will have done enormous good.

The Sammy Wilson who supported the UDA's plan to wipe out Catholics from NI? He called their proposal "a valuable return to reality". The DUP are base politics and should be treated as such.

steddyeddy

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That odious little alienesque twerp was fully against the Good Friday Agreement and considered it a capitulation to the Provos.

Anyway, the Tories will be out of government in 2022, if not well before then, so won't be doing anything that might further erode their power, they've been taking a pasting in local elections in Britain and haven't even absorbed the UKIP vote.

In other words he favored continued violence. It's a pity he feels like that because the EU will be giving them orders on keeping the GFA strong.

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

In other words he favored continued violence. It's a pity he feels like that because the EU will be giving them orders on keeping the GFA strong.

If you read his anti peace process pamphlet he viewed the political arrangements in the GFA as more of a threat than the PIRA because they might spread to GB. If you haven't already read it check out Chapter 8 'The Soft Underbelly' .

Professor Moriarty

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If you read his anti peace process pamphlet he viewed the political arrangements in the GFA as more of a threat than the PIRA because they might spread to GB. If you haven't already read it check out Chapter 8 'The Soft Underbelly' .

Very interesting insight into a troglodyte mindset. So much bizarre reactionary drivel to choose from. I like this one, though. It's kind of cute in a pathetic way.

"Creating new rights to eradicate “disablism” would mean that institutions such as the police, fire service or army would no longer be able to discriminate in favour of the able-bodied. Campaigners against sex discrimination have already ensured that the fire service cannot discriminate against women. The price, however, of this equality, has been that those in danger are forced to depend on firefighters who lack the physical strength to discharge their duties."

Sexism and disablism dressed up as 'common sense'. And sure what would experts know anyway? Classic elitist Tory modus operandi.

Junkyard Tom

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Sexism and disablism dressed up as 'common sense'. And sure what would experts know anyway? Classic elitist Tory modus operandi.

Gove bemoans 'the equality agenda' which is, in essence, an understanding that people are not equal and do not all run the race from the start line.

On Question Time last night some privately educated Tory son of a Baron was moaning 'I wish we'd just stop talking about class'.

In other words 'I don't want to hear that I've been born into privilege by some ingrate pleb'.

An Claidheamh

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Gove bemoans 'the equality agenda' which is, in essence, an understanding that people are not equal and do not all run the race from the start line.

On Question Time last night some privately educated Tory son of a Baron was moaning 'I wish we'd just stop talking about class'.

In other words 'I don't want to hear that I've been born into privilege by some ingrate pleb'.

That politician is the same clown who thought
"Enda Kelly" was the "t-shirt of Northern Ireland" .

So much for British private education.

An Claidheamh

steddyeddy wrote: »

From the Telegraph today. Well if we're annoying people of Telegraph/Sun reading caliber then we're doing something right.

"would have spelt a financial disaster for the Republic’s economy."

I was thinking 'Could this man elaborate on this. Surely, it is the North's that would collapse?'

But guess what I googled him.
John Coulter, the author is an out and out nutter.

http://thepensivequill.am/2015/05/what-loyalism-means-to-me-dr-john.html

'Dr John Coulter has been a life-long member of the Ulster Unionist Party. He is chairman of the radical Right-wing Unionist think-tank, the Revolutionary Unionist Convention, which wants loyalism to embrace the concept of One Faith, One Party, One Commonwealth.'

Even for the Telegraph, he's odd.

Samaris

An Claidheamh wrote: »

"would have spelt a financial disaster for the Republic’s economy."

I was thinking 'Could this man elaborate on this. Surely, it is the North's that would collapse?'

But guess what I googled him.
John Coulter, the author is an out and out nutter.

http://thepensivequill.am/2015/05/what-loyalism-means-to-me-dr-john.html

'Dr John Coulter has been a life-long member of the Ulster Unionist Party. He is chairman of the radical Right-wing Unionist think-tank, the Revolutionary Unionist Convention, which wants loyalism to embrace the concept of One Faith, One Party, One Commonwealth.'

Even for the Telegraph, he's odd.

Well, a hard border would have been disasterous for the economy of the Republic as well as NI. Probably more so to NI as at least ROI knows what it's doing and exists in objective reality. NI, given it is relying on the current lot in Westminster not not allow it collapse, is in a worse political position for preparations.

Although I don't disagree on yer man being a nut. This whole daft business brought all the nuts out of hiding.

steddyeddy

I think it's fair to say that Irish (rep) politicians came across as far more sensible, educated and capable in all this. These qualities combinded with the backing of the EU meant we were a competent force in the negotiations.

Professor Moriarty

An Claidheamh wrote: »

"would have spelt a financial disaster for the Republic’s economy."

I was thinking 'Could this man elaborate on this. Surely, it is the North's that would collapse?'

But guess what I googled him.
John Coulter, the author is an out and out nutter.

http://thepensivequill.am/2015/05/what-loyalism-means-to-me-dr-john.html

'Dr John Coulter has been a life-long member of the Ulster Unionist Party. He is chairman of the radical Right-wing Unionist think-tank, the Revolutionary Unionist Convention, which wants loyalism to embrace the concept of One Faith, One Party, One Commonwealth.'

Even for the Telegraph, he's odd.

I dunno. He has some very insightful and helpful points to make. Consider this:

"As a Revolutionary Unionist, I recognise that the Occupied Twenty-Six Counties (known as the Republic) has failed as a political and financial experiment. It is time for these 26 Southern counties to resume their rightful place in a new Union within the Commonwealth of nations."

John continues in the same vein, espousing an island wide conversion to evangelicalism leading to a United Ireland governed by biblical principles.

Good man John.

red sean

Where's Michael Martin?
A week ago, he and Michael McGrath couldn't get themselves on RTE often enough about the Fitzgerald issue.
And yesterday, not a sight of either on the RTE news.

devnull

Gove is now telling voters that if they do not like a Soft Brexit, then they will have their chance via a general election to reverse it and get a hard Brexit instead so it seems already there are ructions in the camp.

I mean seriously how does he think that is going to work? It suggests that he is going to make sure that the next leader of the Tory party is going to be hard brexiteer and suggests if there is a new election anytime soon he is going to force May out?

Have to laugh at Tory internal politics.

Water John

It won't be his worry as, the Tories won't be in Govn't.

LeinsterDub

red sean wrote: »

Where's Michael Martin?
A week ago, he and Michael McGrath couldn't get themselves on RTE often enough about the Fitzgerald issue.
And yesterday, not a sight of either on the RTE news.

Not much news in him coming out and saying we agree with the government's position more or less 100%

Leroy42

Water John wrote: »

It won't be his worry as, the Tories won't be in Govn't.

But what is does point to is, I believe, a fundamental flaw in the approach of the EU to Brexit.

They seem to be of the view that negotiating with the UK will lead to a UK that is happy with the relationship. The last 40 years has shown that no matter no you do with the UK, there will be a sizeable chunk of the political class that will deem it insufficient and an afront to the UK.

I think that the allowances that were given in yesterdays deal will come back to haunt the EU. The transition period is of far more worth to the UK than the EU and after that period is anybody really thinking that the UK will stick the regulatory equivalence (or whatever wording they used).

It will go one of two ways. 1) The UK does great meaning that other countries will look to leave on the same deal or 2) the UK does badly in which case it will blamed on the EU deal and they will look to break that as well.

One thing that will not happen, but seems to be the overall aim of the EU, is that the UK will come back. So the EU and Ireland, so cop on to the inevitability and look on the UK as a competitor and act accordingly, because the UK look on the EU in that way.

recedite

Leroy42 wrote: »

So the EU and Ireland, so cop on to the inevitability and look on the UK as a competitor and act accordingly

But that is not reconcilable with our stance that there can be no border between RoI and NI, and we want the maximum cooperation there.

The UK stance is equally illogical.

I am now going to pick up a metal coathanger and stick it into a live electrical socket. I expect not to get an electric shock because I won't be touching the socket myself, I'll only be touching the metal coathanger.

Leroy42

The EU position is that there should be no border between NI and RoI. That is there wish. However, it can only be achieved if the UK place the same value on it. If the UK deem it not worth the price then there will be a hard border.

Ireland and the EU stance hasn't changed only the UK one. And that is the point The UK have shown, through the vote itself, that it values leaving the EU above all else. The border issue should have stopped brexit even before the vote, the fact it didn't showed that the U are not overly concerned if they have to bring it in.

It was the EU that forced them to face up to the reality. And yet today people like Gove are coming out saying that the people will stay have a say at the end (so could still be a no deal and thus hard border).

The EU need to come to the conclusion that the No.1 priority to brexiteers is to leave the EU, at whatever that cost might be. If they are so willing to accept falling growth numbers, massive payouts, possible job losses etc etc, why do you think they are overly concerned about state of a portion of the union on a different island.

A hard brexit is coming, it is simply a matter of when it will eventually happen.

jimmycrackcorm

Blowfish wrote: »

To me that was the DUP saying that though they're happy enough with it as there'll be no regulatory difference between the NI and UK, over the past few days they had the hardcore Tory Brexiteers on to them saying that they didn't want regulatory alignment at all. It was a warning that May is going to have to face down a chunk of her own party at some point.

Michael Gove coming out today saying that the next G.E. Will be an opportunity for the British people to decide on what has been agreed.

As I said in an earlier post it will become an opportunity for the Tories to unshackle the DUP by having the electorate decide that mainland UK don't want regulatory convergence and NI will have to.

The DUP will find itself in a very lonely place. What happened on Monday sounds F fabre been a very clear sign to them as to their place in all of this.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Michael Gove coming out today saying that the next G.E. Will be an opportunity for the British people to decide on what has been agreed.

As I said in an earlier post it will become an opportunity for the Tories to unshackle the DUP by having the electorate decide that mainland UK don't want regulatory convergence and NI will have to.

The DUP will find itself in a very lonely place. What happened on Monday sounds F fabre been a very clear sign to them as to their place in all of this.

Makes sense.
You could see a GE called in January. Imagine the campaign of desperation in the north. It would be very dirty.

First Up

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Michael Gove coming out today saying that the next G.E. Will be an opportunity for the British people to decide on what has been agreed.

As I said in an earlier post it will become an opportunity for the Tories to unshackle the DUP by having the electorate decide that mainland UK don't want regulatory convergence and NI will have to.

The DUP will find itself in a very lonely place. What happened on Monday sounds F fabre been a very clear sign to them as to their place in all of this.

Gove is talking through his hat. The UK's exit terms will be agreed between the EU and whatever government is in office at Westminster. That will be the deal.

The UK electorate can subsequently throw that government out but they don't get to throw out the deal.

Water John

With the present polls, Tories are in no rush, for an election. They will cling on, as long as possible.
The next Govn't anyway, no matter what hue, won't renege on agreements. That generally is the way. Otherwise there would be no continuity in Governance.

Gove can be as deluded as he likes. What was agreed to has all the signs of a very soft Brexit. UK outside the door and making rules that mirror the ones being designed by EU, but having no direct input.
Follow the intent of the agreement and tell me how you get your chlorinated chicken into the UK?

123shooter

Water John wrote: »

With the present polls, Tories are in no rush, for an election. They will cling on, as long as possible.
The next Govn't anyway, no matter what hue, won't renege on agreements. That generally is the way. Otherwise there would be no continuity in Governance.

Gove can be as deluded as he likes. What was agreed to has all the signs of a very soft Brexit. UK outside the door and making rules that mirror the ones being designed by EU, but having no direct input.
Follow the intent of the agreement and tell me how you get your chlorinated chicken into the UK?

I doubt very much that Labour would win an election. Just because you think that they are unpopular because they have different values to you does not mean that everybody will rush to vote for the other side.

So you thinking is flawed there.

red sean

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Michael Gove coming out today saying that the next G.E. Will be an opportunity for the British people to decide on what has been agreed.

As I said in an earlier post it will become an opportunity for the Tories to unshackle the DUP by having the electorate decide that mainland UK don't want regulatory convergence and NI will have to.

The DUP will find itself in a very lonely place. What happened on Monday sounds F fabre been a very clear sign to them as to their place in all of this.

So will the Tories I reckon.

123shooter

Leroy42 wrote: »

It was the EU that forced them to face up to the reality.

If that were true then they wouldn't leave would they:)

And with all the waffle whatever agreements are made now can easily be ripped up and ignored tomorrow.........1 year.........10 years time.

After WW1 Germany signed a treaty saying they wouldn't rearm themselves..........less than 20 years later they had the largest most advanced army, navy and airforce in the whole world and most of this was was built up undercover and had been going on for donkeys years.

So agreements only last as long as someone wants to change them.:)

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Makes sense.
You could see a GE called in January. Imagine the campaign of desperation in the north. It would be very dirty.

The DUP already went against the majority voters in the North by backing leave. They also came out quite badly in UK politics in general.

An Ciarraioch

steddyeddy wrote: »

The DUP already went against the majority voters in the North by backing leave. They also came out quite badly in UK politics in general.

That said, how many seats would they actually lose? The nationalist vote seems too evenly split to win back South Belfast, Alliance actually lost votes in East Belfast, despite that effectively being a two-horse race, and the UUP appears too weak elsewhere.

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

If that were true then they wouldn't leave would they:)

And with all the waffle whatever agreements are made now can easily be ripped up and ignored tomorrow.........1 year.........10 years time.

After WW1 Germany signed a treaty saying they wouldn't rearm themselves..........less than 20 years later they had the largest most advanced army, navy and airforce in the whole world and most of this was was built up undercover and had been going on for donkeys years.

So agreements only last as long as someone wants to change them.:)

Until the UK can leave the EU without any need to participate in EU institutions to keep the economy and normal life ticking along, the EU will have leverage that will force the UK to keep their word. Its all about who has the power over the other party. Unfortunately, as we have seen with the negotiations right now, the EU has all the power and the UK will compromise all the way.

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

Until the UK can leave the EU without any need to participate in EU institutions to keep the economy and normal life ticking along, the EU will have leverage that will force the UK to keep their word. Its all about who has the power over the other party. Unfortunately, as we have seen with the negotiations right now, the EU has all the power and the UK will compromise all the way.

Don't be so naive. Do you not think Germany was not trading with Britain, USA or anybody else back then?

If the UK walked away now then everybody gets hurt and some a lot worse than the UK.

Germany invaded it's neighbors. Didn't deter them that they would suffer economically did it?

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

Don't be so naive. Do you not think Germany was not trading with Britain, USA or anybody else back then?

If the UK walked away now then everybody gets hurt and some a lot worse than the UK.

Germany invaded it's neighbors. Didn't deter them that they would suffer economically did it?

What does Germany in the 1930's have to do with the UK leaving the EU in 2017? Now your question on why the UK would keep to the agreement is an interesting question, you really are on the losing side when you need to invoke Nazi Germany to try and make your point.

The UK can always go back on the agreement that they have with the EU, but what guarantee would any other country (China, Japan, Canada, Brazil, the USA) that they UK want to trade with have that they will keep to the terms of their agreements? Would you trust someone that sold a car that is broken to someone you know? Do you think the UK has more influence in the world right now than the EU?

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

What does Germany in the 1930's have to do with the UK leaving the EU in 2017? Now your question on why the UK would keep to the agreement is an interesting question, you really are on the losing side when you need to invoke Nazi Germany to try and make your point.

The UK can always go back on the agreement that they have with the EU, but what guarantee would any other country (China, Japan, Canada, Brazil, the USA) that they UK want to trade with have that they will keep to the terms of their agreements? Would you trust someone that sold a car that is broken to someone you know? Do you think the UK has more influence in the world right now than the EU?

I am not trying to like Nazi's with anybody.

I am merely giving an example that............an agreement will only last until one of the parties decides for whatever reason to break it.............just like they do every day........and I just gave you a blazingly clear example that's all.

I am not on any side.........I am not the one who is paranoid about Brexit............To me it's just like the weather...........Some people go on about something they can do sod all about.

I just pointed out a couple of peoples errors in the thinking that's all.

Professor Moriarty

123shooter wrote: »

I doubt very much that Labour would win an election. Just because you think that they are unpopular because they have different values to you does not mean that everybody will rush to vote for the other side.

So you thinking is flawed there.

That's a nonsensical point. As an aside, Labour have led the Tories in almost every poll since the GE.

123shooter

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's a nonsensical point. As an aside, Labour have led the Tories in almost every poll since the GE.

And polls are always correct aren't they? Especially of late.

Professor Moriarty

123shooter wrote: »

And polls are always correct aren't they? Especially of late.

Just an indication that's all. Usually, they're fairly accurate though.

An Ciarraioch

123shooter wrote: »

And polls are always correct aren't they? Especially of late.

46% of UK respondents believe the UK will be better off post-Brexit, and that was before a deal!

46% also claim that control over migration is more important than an FTA with the EU, so yes, hard to credit some polls:

https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/939503444213321731

https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/939504235573661696

123shooter

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

46% of UK respondents believe the UK will be better off post-Brexit, and that was before a deal!

46% also claim that control over migration is more important than an FTA with the EU, so yes, hard to credit some polls:

https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/939503444213321731

https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/939504235573661696

If you had a poll asking should Dustin the Turkey be the EU president.......a certain percentage would vote yes..........Means nowt until the votes are counted and then you 'should' do as they voted for......But you know???

Tell me how

I think the fact that Labour are leading the conservatives in the Polls right now says more about the state of the tories than any sign of strength from Labour.

Jeremy Corbyn was a dead duck last year when challeneged by his fellow MP's. It took grass root support marches and infinitely forgettable challengers to get him through that. And that was just 12 months after being elected party leader.

Before that saw the also forgettable Ed Milliband and this was telling given the narrow split in the vote between him and his brother at the time of his election to the head of the party.

Diane Abbott, shadow home secretary disappeared from the campaign trail during the election earlier this year after a series of controversial comments.

I wouldn't differentiate too much between them and some parties in Leinster House who I suspect talk a better fight than if they found themselves in charge.

The fact that the UK is so weak with both the government and the alternative is cause for serious concern from objective observers over there. I have a number of friends living there and one who is a business owner is close to refusing to talk about it, he is so disillusioned about what he sees in all directions. Of course, he is enlightened through being an Irish man who is now living there.

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

I am not trying to like Nazi's with anybody.

I am merely giving an example that............an agreement will only last until one of the parties decides for whatever reason to break it.............just like they do every day........and I just gave you a blazingly clear example that's all.

I am not on any side.........I am not the one who is paranoid about Brexit............To me it's just like the weather...........Some people go on about something they can do sod all about.

I just pointed out a couple of peoples errors in the thinking that's all.

Sure, but why would other countries trust the UK to adhere to agreements if they don't keep to their agreement with the EU? Keeping to the agreed terms is not just about doing the right thing, its about building trust for other countries as well.

Tell me how wrote: »

I think the fact that Labour are leading the conservatives in the Polls right now says more about the state of the tories than any sign of strength from Labour.

Jeremy Corbyn was a dead duck last year when challeneged by his fellow MP's. It took grass root support marches and infinitely forgettable challengers to get him through that. And that was just 12 months after being elected party leader.

Before that saw the also forgettable Ed Milliband and this was telling given the narrow split in the vote between him and his brother at the time of his election to the head of the party.

Diane Abbott, shadow home secretary disappeared from the campaign trail during the election earlier this year after a series of controversial comments.

I wouldn't differentiate too much between them and some parties in Leinster House who I suspect talk a better fight than if they found themselves in charge.

The fact that the UK is so weak with both the government and the alternative is cause for serious concern from objective observers over there. I have a number of friends living there and one who is a business owner is close to refusing to talk about it, he is so disillusioned about what he sees in all directions. Of course, he is enlightened through being an Irish man who is now living there.

I think most people in the UK would agree with the policies that Jeremy Corbyn is proposing, but they have a dislike for the person. They would rather be represented by an Private School educated elite that looks good in front of the camera than someone who talks with a funny accent and looks a little funny. I mean how else do you explain them voting for the Conservatives in 2015 and voting for more austerity?

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

Sure, but why would other countries trust the UK to adhere to agreements if they don't keep to their agreement with the EU? Keeping to the agreed terms is not just about doing the right thing, its about building trust for other countries as well.

Everybody/all countries break and bend agreements including Ireland. The difference is the EU has no clout or able to fine the UK like they can with other EU countries, and by the time they have all agreed to do something :rolleyes: then time has moved on.

I think most people in the UK would agree with the policies that Jeremy Corbyn is proposing,

Oh really? Have you asked them or have privileged knowledge? .... or is this just another assumption?

ancapailldorcha

123shooter wrote: »

And polls are always correct aren't they? Especially of late.

Stop posting like this. Final warning.