Brexit discussion thread III

steddyeddy

123shooter wrote: »

Everybody/all countries break and bend agreements including Ireland. The difference is the EU has no clout or able to fine the UK like they can with other EU countries, and by the time they have all agreed to do something :rolleyes: then time has moved on.


Oh really? Have you asked them or have privileged knowledge? .... or is this just another assumption?

That mst be why the UK caved on the bill, citizen's rights and the border so.

123shooter

Don't question mod warnings on thread please.

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

Everybody/all countries break and bend agreements including Ireland. The difference is the EU has no clout or able to fine the UK like they can with other EU countries, and by the time they have all agreed to do something :rolleyes: then time has moved on.



Oh really? Have you asked them or have privileged knowledge? .... or is this just another assumption?

Here you go for a link on the Labour policies,

Labour's policies more popular than Corbyn, polls show

I doubt you will have many people that will say, nope we want higher energy prices or we don't want to spend on the NHS. They have a problem with Jeremy Corbyn.

Can you link to international agreements that countries have broken?

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

Here you go for a link on the Labour policies,

Labour's policies more popular than Corbyn, polls show

I doubt you will have many people that will say, nope we want higher energy prices or we don't want to spend on the NHS. They have a problem with Jeremy Corbyn.

Can you link to international agreements that countries have broken?

As I have already tried to explain..........polls mean nothing and of late have been incorrect.....regards elections for example.

I already gave a glaringly obvious example of a major international treaty which was broken and also by a European country.

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

Here you go for a link on the Labour policies,

Labour's policies more popular than Corbyn, polls show

I doubt you will have many people that will say, nope we want higher energy prices or we don't want to spend on the NHS. They have a problem with Jeremy Corbyn.

Can you link to international agreements that countries have broken?

You're completely wrong because Nazi Germany broke a treaty 80 years ago. So, from that, we must extrapolate that modern treaties agreed by the EU and Britain will be broken. Apparently.

123shooter

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You're completely wrong because Nazi Germany broke a treaty 80 years ago. So, from that, we must extrapolate that modern treaties agreed by the EU and Britain will be broken. Apparently.

No I havent said that. I said agreements can be broken at anytime when one party sees fit.

The are recent ones. For example I was reading the other day that the USA reckon that Russia has broken a major arms treaty on developing new kinds of nuclear weapons? I have no idea if it is true.

Also wasnt there something about Irelands vehicle import tax in the news recently?........http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/europes-highest-court-rules-against-11200033

Would this be a case of Ireland breaking a law or agreement they signed up to?

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

No I havent said that. I said agreements can be broken at anytime when one party sees fit.

The are recent ones. For example I was reading the other day that the USA reckon that Russia has broken a major arms treaty on developing new kinds of nuclear weapons? I have no idea if it is true.

Also wasnt there something about Irelands vehicle import tax in the news recently?........http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/europes-highest-court-rules-against-11200033

Would this be a case of Ireland breaking a law or agreement they signed up to?

So other than governments that are ruled by despots and who are considered hostile or at least a threat, no other examples.

Also, please consider that some in the UK have called for them to not pay the EU anything and to just leave. All we have seen from the adults in the UK government is that they will honor their commitments that they have made. The reason they have done this is because words matter from governments and if they break the agreements then there is no reason why any other countries cannot break agreements the UK also has. That is a 2-way street and the UK isn't the only one that can break agreements.

You are correct that an agreement can be broken. But the possibility of this happening is slight as there is too much on the line for the UK if they decide to go down that route.

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

So other than governments that are ruled by despots and who are considered hostile or at least a threat, no other examples.

Also, please consider that some in the UK have called for them to not pay the EU anything and to just leave. All we have seen from the adults in the UK government is that they will honor their commitments that they have made. The reason they have done this is because words matter from governments and if they break the agreements then there is no reason why any other countries cannot break agreements the UK also has. That is a 2-way street and the UK isn't the only one that can break agreements.

You are correct that an agreement can be broken. But the possibility of this happening is slight as there is too much on the line for the UK if they decide to go down that route.

Thats the point I am trying to make.

You and others..........are assuming it's a done deal on your opinion.............your opinion means didlysquat because you do not have the information as to what is what..............the people who made this 'deal' have a good chance of disappearing not because of their opposition party but because of people in their own party who do not agree with them and those forces will most probably mount an offensive soon to get rid of May.

All that has been really agreed is that Ireland can carry on as normal..........which to be honest would have probably happened anyway as UK people always regard Ireland as a friend. Probably every UK family is made up of Irish relatives and that is why Ireland would always be able to carry on.

The UK's problems have never been with Ireland but with the others and those agreements have yet to happen..........and be kept.

Jim2007

123shooter wrote: »

The difference is the EU has no clout or able to fine the UK like they can with other EU countries, and by the time they have all agreed to do something :rolleyes: then time has moved on.

Oh I think you'll find that they will have clout and lots of it. I expect you'll find that the trade agreement will fall under WTO and sanctions can be applied, approval of UK trade agreements at the WTO can be held up indefinitely and so on.

At the stage the EU has the mark of the UK and will take every step to protect itself.

Jim2007

123shooter wrote: »

If the UK walked away now then everybody gets hurt and some a lot worse than the UK.

At this stage everyone and his mother knows that that is not even remotely on the cards and that after is if is becoming obvious that a Canadian style deal with a few trimmings is all that is on offer.

Tell me how

123shooter wrote: »

You and others..........are assuming it's a done deal on your opinion.............your opinion means didlysquat because you do not have the information as to what is what..............the people who made this 'deal' have a good chance of disappearing not because of their opposition party but because of people in their own party who do not agree with them and those forces will most probably mount an offensive soon to get rid of May.

Even though this is difficult to interpret the point you are making here, opinions here are based on the general knowledge that once the UK government signs up to something, it is likely to be enforced. There will always be exceptional examples but generally speaking, countries follow through on their agreements.

123shooter wrote: »

The UK's problems have never been with Ireland but with the others and those agreements have yet to happen..........and be kept.

Michael Portillo would disagree with you.

Professor Moriarty

123shooter wrote: »

Thats the point I am trying to make.

You and others..........are assuming it's a done deal on your opinion.............your opinion means didlysquat because you do not have the information as to what is what..............the people who made this 'deal' have a good chance of disappearing not because of their opposition party but because of people in their own party who do not agree with them and those forces will most probably mount an offensive soon to get rid of May.

All that has been really agreed is that Ireland can carry on as normal..........which to be honest would have probably happened anyway as UK people always regard Ireland as a friend. Probably every UK family is made up of Irish relatives and that is why Ireland would always be able to carry on.

The UK's problems have never been with Ireland but with the others and those agreements have yet to happen..........and be kept.

Maybe you are young, but I'm afraid that's a very uninformed and naive point of view. Historically, including very recent decades, British people have had a negative stereotypical view of Ireland and Irish people.

Thargor

123shooter wrote: »

As I have already tried to explain..........polls mean nothing and of late have been incorrect.....regards elections for example.

Werent the polls shockingly accurate lately to the point that they were dismissed by the media right up until they came true? Brexit, May completely cocking up the snap election etc?

An Ciarraioch

The Observer reports tonight that the EU has been lobbied by trading partners (unnamed, but presumably Switzerland and Norway are among them), demanding that they should get preferential treatment to the UK. Meanwhile, some British Treasury officials think the transition period could last until 2024!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk

Sam Russell

Guardian saying trade talks will not start until Feb or March as UK Gov not united and the have not decided what they want - and have not actually discussed the desired end point.

Oh dear!

steddyeddy

Sam Russell wrote: »

Guardian saying trade talks will not start until Feb or March as UK Gov not united and the have not decided what they want - and have not actually discussed the desired end point.

Oh dear!

Can we finally dispel the myth that the EU will be rushing to do a trade deal with the UK?

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

Can we finally dispel the myth that the EU will be rushing to do a trade deal with the UK?

The urgency is all Britain's. T-May rushing to the EU at 4am in the morning to give the EU what it wants before Tusk was to speak later that day tells us all we need to know.

Get your **** together Britain, we've got stuff to take care of.

MPFGLB

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Maybe you are young, but I'm afraid that's a very uninformed and naive point of view. Historically, including very recent decades, British people have had a negative stereotypical view of Ireland and Irish people.

Such blanket statements are not true today . You are mixing up the establishment including the press and government instituations with ordianry people
Most ordianry British people feel as highjacketed by their press and political forces as most people do...in fact its worse in UK because of the Murdoch press and the established class systems where the long term powers that be hold themseleves above all others , harp back to days of empire and have negative views on every Johnny foreigner

I live in uk and have for many years. Most British people I know and that includes people of all class have genuine affection for Irish people and have irish ancestery some where

Equating the British ruling classes with the British people is naive and mis informed

Tell me how

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Maybe you are young, but I'm afraid that's a very uninformed and naive point of view. Historically, including very recent decades, British people have had a negative stereotypical view of Ireland and Irish people.

I went to University in England and would dispute this view.

jobbridge4life

MPFGLB wrote: »

Such blanket statements are not true today . You are mixing up the establihment including the press and government instituations with ordianry people
Most ordianry British people feel as highjacketed by their press and political forces as most people do...in fact its worse in UK because of the Murdoch press and the established class systems where the long term powers that be hold themseleves above all others , harp back to days of empire and have negative views on every Johhny foreigner

I live in uk and have for many years. Most British people I know and that includes people of all class have genunine affection for Irish people and have irish ancestery some where

Equating the British ruling classes with the British people is naive and mis informed

...if that were true why did they vote for Brexit? Why did May, and the most disastrous British Government for decades still win the most seats? Why did most English people buy into the flagrant and obvious nonsense peddled to them about Brexit?

Why even now when they are humiliated daily do they still believe they are masters and the rest of us are pawns?

Jim2007

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Observer reports tonight that the EU has been lobbied by trading partners (unnamed, but presumably Switzerland and Norway are among them), demanding that they should get preferential treatment to the UK.

Unlikely since both Switzerland and Norway already have preferential deals that go further than anything the UK are likely to get without similar concessions to EU rules etc. More likely to be countries with existing trade deals such as Canada who expect the UK to get a similar deal plus say preferential treatment on visas for instance.

For example, the existing agreement on FOP with Switzerland givens preferences as follows: CH + All EU residents, Next EU non-residents and only after that comes all others such as Canada, the USA etc... If a new agreement put the UK in front of Canada and the US, neither would be happy politically - you can imagine the Donald not being happy with America Fourth!

blackcard

The Sunday Express is stating that after May's triumph, Brexiteers are demanding that the UK should now insist that it be given a Gold Plated trade deal or else threaten to pay nothing to the EU. The fact that the EU rushed to agree a deal after being spooked by the delay caused by Arlene showed that the UK now had the upper hand in negotiations.

If that was a triumph, what would failure look like?

Patser

blackcard wrote: »

The Sunday Express is stating that after May's triumph, Brexiteers are demanding that the UK should now insist that it be given a Gold Plated trade deal or else threaten to pay nothing to the EU. The fact that the EU rushed to agree a deal after being spooked by the delay caused by Arlene showed that the UK now had the upper hand in negotiations.

If that was a triumph, what would failure look like?

Was going to post about this too. I know the Express is pretty much a looney right outlier in terms of papers, but how you spin the week that May has had as a glorious victory to has put Europe on the run is beyond me.

She's been humiliated by Foster's veto, Davis' 'no plans' admission and has basically agreed to the softest of soft Brexits.

But the Express gets this:

Sam Russell

Patser wrote: »

Was going to post about this too. I know the Express is pretty much a looney right outlier in terms of papers, but how you spin the week that May has had as a glorious victory to has put Europe on the run is beyond me.

She's been humiliated by Foster's veto, Davis' 'no plans' admission and has basically agreed to the softest of soft Brexits.

But the Express gets this:

The last time Britain withdrew from Europe was at Dunkirk.

This is a similar victory.

Enzokk

David Davis was just on The Andrew Marr Show. He does speak in circles to not get himself tied down to a position and just seems shady, in my opinion. He didn't really confirm or deny anything without putting it in doubt a few seconds later.

He confirmed that they will leave the single market and customs union, but they will have rules that will lead to regulatory alignment. Now according to him that means having the same outcome, but getting there will be different. I am still unclear on how the UK will do that but that is for the UK government to sell to their public.

He also said that the Chancellor and PM are wrong and the amounts will not be paid in case of no deal. This go directly against the proclamations that the UK will pay what they agreed to, so that is a big contradiction.

He also said the UK doesn't publish their red lines in public. So I am not sure what the PM has been talking about and what Jacob Rees Mogg was asking about on Wednesday. Either he is obscuring the truth once again or the UK government doesn't know what the minister for leaving the EU is doing.

Then there is once again the border. The UK government is committed to keeping to the terms of the GFA which means a frictionless border. If there is no deal then a way will have to be found to keep the border without any border posts. How this will be done was not said. What he did say was that there is a different tax regimes between the UK and Ireland and there is no border so there should be no problem with this in future. Either he is not informed (a possibility) or he is trying to sound smart again. The reason there is no border is because both countries are in the SM and CU. A border isn't predicated on tax alignment. Idiot.

Professor Moriarty

MPFGLB wrote: »

Such blanket statements are not true today . You are mixing up the establihment including the press and government instituations with ordianry people
Most ordianry British people feel as highjacketed by their press and political forces as most people do...in fact its worse in UK because of the Murdoch press and the established class systems where the long term powers that be hold themseleves above all others , harp back to days of empire and have negative views on every Johhny foreigner

I live in uk and have for many years. Most British people I know and that includes people of all class have genunine affection for Irish people and have irish ancestery some where

Equating the British ruling classes with the British people is naive and mis informed

I didn't equate Little Englander elitists with with ordinary British people, that's a construction of your own making. And I too spent a lot of time in Britain and have good British friends.

However, let's be clear. Throughout history, until very recently, Irish people were very negatively portrayed and perceived by British (and especially English) people. Whether it's the Punch cartoons of Victorian times, the No Irish signs of the 1950s or the Thick Paddy jokes of the 70s and 80s, it has been a consistent and prevalent attitude. In the 80s in England, I personally experienced racism in the form of 'jokes' and threats and was detained under suspicion by police for no reason other than my Irish accent.

Just like the other poster, I assume that you are also young and therefore naive and misinformed. It's important to acknowledge that anti-Irish attitudes have faded recently but it is also important to remember how recently they prevailed.

Leroy42

There are clearly plenty of ministers within the UK government who do not see this deal as binding in any way, do not see the need to pay for previous commitments and that everything is basically still on the table.

There is also the major issue facing the EU that any 'Gold-plated deal' will be challenged or at least looked for to bring their deals into the same terms, by other nations outside the EU.

I hope the concessions given the UK as part of this phase are not indicative of the sort of positions that the EU are going to take during the trade talks as I think it is the wrong way to go.

The UK have to decide what they actually want, they can't have it all. To get the benefits of the EU then be in the EU, otherwise leave. The EU have been placating the UK ever since they joined.

Also, the UK seem to be using this threat of not paying as some sort of trump card. £50bn, in terms of the EU is nothing. Hell even many in the UK would deem £50bn as small beer in terms of the size of the economy.

But to unilaterally pull out from sovereign commitments, how do they think that is doing to play out across the rest of the nations they are going to have to negotiate with. Will we get to a point where the UK delegation has to pay for the water in the room as the other country are worried if they don't cave to their demands they will simply not pay. It is a pointless and arrogant position and, IMO, shows the UK for what it is trying to be.

To the UK really think that pulling out of any deal will not have major consequences? Even something like passporting rights for financial services. My bet would be that the EU would stop that straight away

Professor Moriarty

Patser wrote: »

Was going to post about this too. I know the Express is pretty much a looney right outlier in terms of papers, but how you spin the week that May has had as a glorious victory to has put Europe on the run is beyond me.

She's been humiliated by Foster's veto, Davis' 'no plans' admission and has basically agreed to the softest of soft Brexits.

But the Express gets this:

"We've got the EU over a barrel". The Tory press at it's finest. It's also interesting to note how the deluded and divisive drumbeat continues with the "Now Get Us A Gold-Plated Trade Deal" headline. That is simply impossible for a variety of reasons that have been described many times on this thread. But still the illusion is peddled as fact. Anyone who reads these papers and believes what they are told deserves what they get as a result.

murphaph

Starmer came closer than ever to saying FoM will continue.

That's the labour front bench getting more and more behind a really soft Brexit.

A viable alternative is being slowly presented to the UK electorate should the Tory hard right bring their own government down (the DUP definitely won't)

Professor Moriarty

murphaph wrote: »

Starmer came closer than ever to saying FoM will continue.

That's the labour front bench getting more and more behind a really soft Brexit.

A viable alternative is being slowly presented to the UK electorate should the Tory hard right bring their own government down (the DUP definitely won't)

Hopefully! Perhaps some green shoots of reality.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Starmer came closer than ever to saying FoM will continue.

That's the labour front bench getting more and more behind a really soft Brexit.

A viable alternative is being slowly presented to the UK electorate should the Tory hard right bring their own government down (the DUP definitely won't)

Unfortunately Starmer is only a single voice on that front bench. Labour's honest position is clear as mud on this whole debacle.

We have Gardiner, Corbyn and McDonnell all contradicting Starmer and each other on a regular basis. They are the real leaders of Labour Policy remember.

Labour have thus far appeared to entertain a policy of "talk through all sides of your mouth, someone will listen. If we get pinned to a position, we're dead to rights".

It's genuinely outrageous that the UK Parliament, with a strong strong majority of support for 'reluctant leave*', is heading towards such a brash 'hard exit'.

*or even remain.

Sierra Oscar

Brexit border pledge a 'statement of intent' - Davis

Britain's Brexit minister David Davis has described the UK government's pledge to prevent any return to a hard border with Ireland after Britain leaves the EU as "a statement of intent" rather than a legally binding move.

...

"This was a statement of intent more than anything else," he said.

"It was much more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing," he told the BBC's Andrew Marr show.

Not exactly encouraging comments from Davis, although it's not surprising.

They would have said anything to progress the talks to Phase 2.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately Starmer is only a single voice on that front bench. Labour's honest position is clear as mud on this whole debacle.

We have Gardiner, Corbyn and McDonnell all contradicting Starmer and each other on a regular basis. They are the real leaders of Labour Policy remember.

Labour have thus far appeared to entertain a policy of "talk through all sides of your mouth, someone will listen. If we get pinned to a position, we're dead to rights".

It's genuinely outrageous that the UK Parliament, with a strong strong majority of support for 'reluctant leave*', is heading towards such a brash 'hard exit'.

*or even remain.

Good point. However, whatever about it's current dysfunction, I'd rather a Labour government than a Tory government every time.

Blair had his faults, but he's not looking too bad compared to the current crop.

A country that recognises its obligations
that guarantees its word
that respects its promises
a genuine actor

hmm

Sam Russell

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Brexit border pledge a 'statement of intent' - Davis




Not exactly encouraging comments from Davis, although it's not surprising.

They would have said anything to progress the talks to Phase 2.

The move to trade talks has not happened yet - best keep quiet, Mr Davis, remember what happened on Monday when Varadkar and Coveney spoke too soon.

Samaris

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Brexit border pledge a 'statement of intent' - Davis




Not exactly encouraging comments from Davis, although it's not surprising.

They would have said anything to progress the talks to Phase 2.

It is jaw-dropping that they just say that though. It's like they don't think anyone else can read English.

Professor Moriarty

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Brexit border pledge a 'statement of intent' - Davis




Not exactly encouraging comments from Davis, although it's not surprising.

They would have said anything to progress the talks to Phase 2.

And there was Leo thinking that Britain's commitment to no hard border were "cast iron and politically bullet-proof". The old phrase 'perfidious Albion' springs to mind.

EDit

David Davis is a high-grade idiot. Based on his gaffs this week, the guy should be sacked (but almost certainly won’t). He’s also got that kind of “England establishment” arrogance about him that I personally detest

Water John

I wouldn't worry too much about the contradictions in LB ATM. It's the contradictions in the Cabinet are what's important.

Note that Lord Kerr (I think), the guy who wrote Art 50 said the odds of having a deal done in 2 years was, zero.

The EU aren't giving the UK much time to draw its breath. Piling on the pressure again, once the first doc is signed.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much about the contradictions in LB ATM. It's the contradictions in the Cabinet are what's important.

Note that Lord Kerr (I think), the guy who wrote Art 50 said the odds of having a deal done in 2 years was, zero.

The EU aren't giving the UK much time to draw its breath. Piling on the pressure again, once the first doc is signed.

This is a minority government, on a thin thin bed of support, seeing problem after problem.

A strong opposition party would have already beaten them into an election.

That's not possible if the opposition party is not offering a realistic, available alternative to the government.

Labour should be utterly punishing this Tory ****show.

murphaph

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Brexit border pledge a 'statement of intent' - Davis




Not exactly encouraging comments from Davis, although it's not surprising.

They would have said anything to progress the talks to Phase 2.

AFAIK there's a specific Irish strand to the trade talks. I suspect if our EU partners believe the wool has been pulled over our eyes by the UK government that a trade deal will be held back by the EU.

Does Davis not think anyone outside the UK notes his statements made on British television?!

Personally I believe he is saying this to placate those in his own party but that he knows deep down we are heading for a soft Brexit.

Water John

Finding your self in Govn't, usually creates a dynamic that cannot the very accurately judged in opposition. Lb at least, by having these voices, are flexible. The reality and responsiblity of office has a binding effect, which is easier to accomplish with people who are not totally dogmatic. Even Corbyn is not totally dogmatic, yet has a very definite, world view.

joeysoap

Either Davis is one of the greatest wind up merchants or one of the greatest idiots around at present.

I know which one I think ........but he did get re-elected ......and he is the Brexit minister.

You couldn’t make it up.

ancapailldorcha

joeysoap wrote: »

Either Davis is one of the greatest wind up merchants or one of the greatest idiots around at present.

I know which one I think ........but he did get re-elected ......and he is the Brexit minister.

You couldn’t make it up.

Mod: This isn't constructive. Please read the charter before posting again.

MPFGLB

jobbridge4life wrote: »

...if that were true why did they vote for Brexit? Why did May, and the most disastrous British Government for decades still win the most seats? Why did most English people buy into the flagrant and obvious nonsense peddled to them about Brexit?

Why even now when they are humiliated daily do they still believe they are masters and the rest of us are pawns?

Most British people do not vote Brexit
72% turned out to vote

53% of 72% voted leave ie 37% voted Brexit (63% did nto vote for Brexit)

Why this 37% voted Brexit is as varied as ther are people including wanting money for the NHS, not liking the EU cos of the lies that have been pedaled by politicans, wanting to curtail immigration, not understanding the issues , wanting to go back in time with UK, feeling they would do better outside EU with trade , etc


I am sure none or very many were voting against Ireland ?

brexit is a great example of how the few dictate for the many by lying and shifting the goal posts and because very few fully understand the issues or care till its too late

ancapailldorcha

If people don't bother voting then they're electing to have others decide for them. I recall reading once that Manchester Central had a turnout of 12% in a recent election. If those who didn't vote have a problem with how things have been handled then they are to blame. EU citizens just have to try to live with or see what options are available outside the UK.

MPFGLB

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I didn't equate Little Englander elitists with with ordinary British people, that's a construction of your own making. And I too spent a lot of time in Britain and have good British friends.

However, let's be clear. Throughout history, until very recently, Irish people were very negatively portrayed and perceived by British (and especially English) people. Whether it's the Punch cartoons of Victorian times, the No Irish signs of the 1950s or the Thick Paddy jokes of the 70s and 80s, it has been a consistent and prevalent attitude. In the 80s in England, I personally experienced racism in the form of 'jokes' and threats and was detained under suspicion by police for no reason other than my Irish accent.

Just like the other poster, I assume that you are also young and therefore naive and misinformed. It's important to acknowledge that anti-Irish attitudes have faded recently but it is also important to remember how recently they prevailed.

Firstly here is what you said

Maybe you are young, but I'm afraid that's a very uninformed and naive point of view. Historically, including very recent decades, British people have had a negative stereotypical view of Ireland and Irish people

Secondly Will you stop assuming and being insulting in your attitude

You can not agree with me but to try and diminish my view as that from 'young and naive' is pretensious and insulting

If you want to go on with the age old chip on the shoulde and putdown anyone who disgaress with you as young and naive so be it....
I for one think that is rubbish

Professor Moriarty

MPFGLB wrote: »

Firstly here is what you said



Secondly Will you stop assuming and being insulting in your attitude

You can not agree with me but to try and dimish my view as that from 'young and naive' is pretensious and insulting

If you want to go on with the age old chip on the shoulde and putdown anyone who disgaress with you as young and naive so be it....
I for one think that is rubbish

With respect, your initial response to me was patronising. If you give it, you should expect to receive it in return.

Right. So Punch magazine's cartoons didn't exist in Victorian times?. 'No Irish' signs didn't exist in the 50s? Insulting Irish jokes on TV and throughout British society in the 70s and 80s didn't exist? There are many more examples of anti-Irish sentiment throughout history and right up to the 90s.

Anti-Irish sentiment never existed at all. Is that what you are saying?

123shooter

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I didn't equate Little Englander elitists with with ordinary British people, that's a construction of your own making. And I too spent a lot of time in Britain and have good British friends.

However, let's be clear. Throughout history, until very recently, Irish people were very negatively portrayed and perceived by British (and especially English) people. Whether it's the Punch cartoons of Victorian times, the No Irish signs of the 1950s or the Thick Paddy jokes of the 70s and 80s, it has been a consistent and prevalent attitude. In the 80s in England, I personally experienced racism in the form of 'jokes' and threats and was detained under suspicion by police for no reason other than my Irish accent.

Just like the other poster, I assume that you are also young and therefore naive and misinformed. It's important to acknowledge that anti-Irish attitudes have faded recently but it is also important to remember how recently they prevailed.

I too spent a lot of time in the UK in the past and lets get things clear also on the things you have highlighted.

No Irish signs......I never saw any (but not around in the 1950's) but Irish people around the world are stereotyped as drinking and fighting.

Thick Paddy Jokes ......... Well again some of the Irish were not subject to great education at that time and again with Irish comedians highlighting this fact and exaggerated these facts in every part of their act all of the time throughout the 60's. 70's and 80's. Irish comedians like Spike Milligan, Frank Carson, Dave Allen, Jimmy Cricket. The list is almost endless.

There was a time for over 25 years were Irish people were also known for letting bombs of in the UK and killing lots of people. So the police will of course stop and detain Irish speaking (accent) people.

All of this was not the fault of the normal UK person and if they formed a bad opinion of Irish people it certainly never stopped them letting ..............Irish people enter the UK, ...............work in the UK, ............prosper in the UK .........and ...............inter marry in the UK.

In fact you could say the average British Joe in all has been very welcoming to Irish people and certainly wouldn't think that because they have chosen to leave the EU, that they think the Irish must be punished, whereas in this thread?

I wonder. :rolleyes:

123shooter

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If people don't bother voting then they're electing to have others decide for them. I recall reading once that Manchester Central had a turnout of 12% in a recent election. If those who didn't vote have a problem with how things have been handled then they are to blame. EU citizens just have to try to live with or see what options are available outside the UK.

But what choice do you have if you do not agree with any of the peoples policies.

Where I you given the choice for .........none of theses lot and I want change?

Probably will never be given that choice ever by anyone........I wonder why.