Brexit discussion thread III

First Up

Really Interested wrote: »

Again I agree it is speculation. But First Up has said that it is been talked about in EU as a very real possibility. I have asked to make clear in what situation it becomes a possibility.


I do not believe it is a possibility and am simply trying to get First Up to set out what situation must exist for the EU to impose a effective Customs Border between EU and ROI.

I simply asked First Up a question for clarity of his claim I really assume only he can answer that question.

I've explained it several times already but we'll try again:

All possibilities are being discussed against all the possibilities of how the UK and NI end up. It isn't an"effective customs border" but if the Irish border is not a secure frontier of the SM, consignments from Ireland cannot be assumed to be fully of EU origin or fully EU compliant. That means they will need to be checked in some fashion at some stage in the shipping process from Ireland to an EU destination. If a consignment is fully compliant, it sails on through. If not, it gets complicated.

This would mostly be a document check but that will cause some delay and opens the possibility of errors. Ways of doing this while minimising costs, delays or disruption are being explored as part of a worst case scenario.

This scenario only arises if the UK - EU frontier at the Irish border cannot be trusted. If the UK explains how it will implement the December commitment to the EU's satisfaction (and with the agreement of the UK parliament), it goes away as an issue. Similarly if we end up with a hard border, it goes away as an issue.

The key point is that the EU will not compromise on the integrity of the Single Market. All members of the SM are required to do their bit to ensure this is the case. If any EU border with a non-member or with a country not aligned with the EU is not properly managed, other measures will be needed. There is no room for fudge or compromise on that.

The EU knows that this is not a problem of Ireland's making and there is much sympathy for Ireland's situation. But that sympathy will not extend to turning a blind eye to UK goods (or UK imports) entering the EU via Ireland.

Skedaddle

This makes no sense. All EU countries on external EU borders have this issue and don’t have any such mess.

Also Ireland *is* the EU. Are you saying that Irish consumers should be denied rights to product safety and food safety standards, or that Irish agriculture or any other sector would have to put up with unfair competition from companies that operate to potentially much lower standards, in some kind of limbo non EU status all to facilitate our non-EU neigbours??

You’re completely ignoring the fact that Ireland is an integral part of the EU single market and the Euro zone. What you’re suggesting is that Ireland would leave the EU effectively.

I mean people have discussed digging a trench and floating NI off the coast too, but we all know that’s also a ludicrous, technically impossible and unacceptable option too.

People may have discussed all sorts of things, it doesn’t mean they’re scenarios that are ever likely to happen.

The realistic outcome is a customs border between the two jurisdictions. It's unpalatable, but that's what the UK wants to impose. Also, this notion the UK just won't enforce the border is absolute nonsense too. They're headed toward protectionism dressed up as something else and all the instincts over there are about closing borders.

Bare in mind that the UK discussed a border between Britian and Ireland long before Brexit when they were reacting to security risks a few years ago. The sentimentality disappears rather quickly when push comes to shove

baylah17

Skedaddle wrote: »

This makes no sense. All EU countries on external EU borders have this issue and don’t have any such mess.

Also Ireland *is* the EU. Are you saying that Irish consumers should be denied rights to product safety and food safety standards, or that Irish agriculture or any other sector would have to put up with unfair competition from companies that operate to potentially much lower standards, in some kind of limbo non EU status all to facilitate our non-EU neigbours??

You’re completely ignoring the fact that Ireland is an integral part of the EU single market and the Euro zone. What you’re suggesting is that Ireland would leave the EU effectively.

I mean people have discussed digging a tench and floating NI off the coast too, but we all know that’s also a ludicrous, technically impossible and unacceptable option too.

People may have discussed all sorts of things, it doesn’t mean they’re scenarios that are ever likely to happen.

As one only too well familiar with the EU external border between Croatia and BiH and Croatia and Montenegro I can assure you there can be delays of up to 7 hours at times due specifically to customs checks.

Nody

What he is saying Skedaddle is that if Ireland don't control their border properly there will be consequences; we've already had a discussion where people think the Irish border to NI "was impossible to control" and if that remains the stance then yes, Ireland fails in it's duties and will face the consequences of additional checks for doing so which would both include substandard products being sold and additional controls on goods leaving Ireland for EU.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

I've explained it several times already but we'll try again:

All possibilities are being discussed against all the possibilities of how the UK and NI end up. It isn't an"effective customs border" but if the Irish border is not a secure frontier of the SM, consignments from Ireland cannot be assumed to be fully of EU origin or fully EU compliant. That means they will need to be checked in some fashion at some stage in the shipping process from Ireland to an EU destination. If a consignment is fully compliant, it sails on through. If not, it gets complicated.

This would mostly be a document check but that will cause some delay and opens the possibility of errors. Ways of doing this while minimising costs, delays or disruption are being explored as part of a worst case scenario.

This scenario only arises if the UK - EU frontier at the Irish border cannot be trusted. If the UK explains how it will implement the December commitment to the EU's satisfaction (and with the agreement of the UK parliament), it goes away as an issue. Similarly if we end up with a hard border, it goes away as an issue.

The key point is that the EU will not compromise on the integrity of the Single Market. All members of the SM are required to do their bit to ensure this is the case. If any EU border with a non-member or with a country not aligned with the EU is not properly managed, other measures will be needed. There is no room for fudge or compromise on that.

The EU knows that this is not a problem of Ireland's making and there is much sympathy for Ireland's situation. But that sympathy will not extend to turning a blind eye to UK goods (or UK imports) entering the EU via Ireland.

In my opinion what you describe as a possibility is illegal under current EU law and would require either a treaty change or a decision from the European Court of Justice, to say it’s ok which based on my understating of their judgements would turn decades of jurisprudence on its head.

I really hope such talk is taking place with out lawyers because I believe and lawyer would have a fanny attack if this was seriously been considered.

Really Interested

Nody wrote: »

What he is saying Skedaddle is that if Ireland don't control their border properly there will be consequences; we've already had a discussion where people think the Irish border to NI "was impossible to control" and if that remains the stance then yes, Ireland fails in it's duties and will face the consequences of additional checks for doing so which would both include substandard products being sold and additional controls on goods leaving Ireland for EU.

Can you set out any legal basis for the claim that goods from Ireland can face extra checks because of the fact Ireland has a land border with third country.

Any examples where any EU country with such a land border faced such consequences? There are many countries with such borders.

Leroy42

That was quite the discussion but I think I understand the points the FirstUp is making.

Unless there is no border (UK remain within the CU) then it falls on Ireland to ensure that the border is effectively controlled. I think many people seem to be under the impression that since we have had an open border for solong, and sure aren't we all the same island, Ireland can do a "minimum amount will do" approach.

But unless we police it properly (in terms of regulations) then we are opening the entire ROI market (and thus the export to the rest of the EU) to standards below or different to the set EU standards and by that the EU would have to treat Ireland has failing in its responsibility to maintain the border.

I wonder what contingencies the government have set aside for this? It seems to me that nothing has been done. We will need, at the least, a significant increase in customs officers. Are we really going to be ready to place a complete and effective control customs process in place by March 19?

Skedaddle

It would result in Ireland being massively fined or, if it failed to implement EU external borders, ultimately being asked to leave.

We're also in a situation where we can't have our cake and eat it either and I think most of us are pretty realistic about this.

The UK has created an absolute mess and they're expecting us to clean it up for them and will blame Dublin and Brussels. That's fundamentally what this comes down to.

I suppose we could call the checkpoints after great Brexit leaders...

Zubeneschamali

First Up wrote: »

I have said everything clearly but if you tell me what is confusing you, I'll give it a go.

You have said, based on unnamed unofficial sources allegedly discussing contingencies in Brussels, that consideration is being given by the EU to having a customs border between the Republic and the rest of the EU.

Since this would be a) illegal and b) a dagger in the heart of the EU, people are confused as to why you would be talking unsupported nonsense like that while pretending to be an EU insider.

Really Interested

Leroy42 wrote: »

That was quite the discussion but I think I understand the points the FirstUp is making.

Unless there is no border (UK remain within the CU) then it falls on Ireland to ensure that the border is effectively controlled. I think many people seem to be under the impression that since we have had an open border for solong, and sure aren't we all the same island, Ireland can do a "minimum amount will do" approach.

But unless we police it properly (in terms of regulations) then we are opening the entire ROI market (and thus the export to the rest of the EU) to standards below or different to the set EU standards and by that the EU would have to treat Ireland has failing in its responsibility to maintain the border.

I wonder what contingencies the government have set aside for this? It seems to me that nothing has been done. We will need, at the least, a significant increase in customs officers. Are we really going to be ready to place a complete and effective control customs process in place by March 19?

If Ireland fails in its obligation to police external border then the usual outcome is daily fines in the millions. If someone can point out the power the EU has to impose different conditions on goods coming from ROI to EU I’m happy to hear of it.

Really Interested

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You have said, based on unnamed unofficial sources allegedly discussing contingencies in Brussels, that consideration is being given by the EU to having a customs border between the Republic and the rest of the EU.

Since this would be a) illegal and b) a dagger in the heart of the EU, people are confused as to why you would be talking unsupported nonsense like that while pretending to be an EU insider.

Nail firmly on the head.

Leroy42

Really Interested wrote: »

If Ireland fails in its obligation to police external border then the usual outcome is daily fines in the millions. If someone can point out the power the EU has to impose different conditions on goods coming from ROI to EU I’m happy to hear of it.

OK, so then the argument is that there is no ability for the EU to place additional controls on goods coming from Ireland even if they know we are open to UK unchecked imports (aside from fines that you mentioned).

But surely the EU would not take kindly to such a situation, which would enable the UK to simply skirt the EU controls and effectively mean they maintain access to the EU market without any of the current obligations. That would seem to be something very beneficial to the UK.

Skedaddle

There are other possibilities, which could include perhaps trade sanctions against the UK for actively undermining an EU member and encouraging / enabling large scale smuggling or the French deciding to give up any kind of security or customs enforcement at Calais into the UK.

There are lots of messy consequences to anything like that.

CelticRambler

First Up is talking about the hypothetical failure of a procdures arising from a hypothetical arrangement that will have to be put in place in the event of a hypothetical failure of a sovereign state to respect it's real committment to avoiding the hypothetical situation.

If the EU is thinking and/or talking about this, then it is almost certainly only as part of an exhaustive "what if" list of scenarios that have to be considered, so as to be able to decide where to draw the EU's own red lines.

As far as the Irish Border is concerned, yes, First Up's hypothetical situation would be a catastrophic injury to the fundamental principles of the EU - so the EU will decide (or have already decided) that it's not going to happen, and wait for the UK to cave in - either a UK-wide membership of the customs union, or special status for NI.

Skedaddle makes a good point in this respect:

Skedaddle wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that Irish political parties, notably FG, are a hell of a lot more plugged into the mainstream of centrist EU politics than anyone in the UK. They're very highly networked and far better positioned than the Tories who are essentially hostile outsiders to the EU political mainstream and seen as even inspiring the likes of Le Pen and the AfD.

Thanks to proportional representation and a lack of hard-core Left or Right in Irish politics, Irish politicians know what it means to govern by compromise, and how to achieve it. They fit in very well with their European counterparts, unlike either of two major parties in the UK who are used to steamrolling their way through parliament. I think we're seeing regular glimpses of the EU's annoyance in being forced to negotiate with playground bullies who have no idea how to act other than try to batter the opposition.

Really Interested

Leroy42 wrote: »

OK, so then the argument is that there is no ability for the EU to place additional controls on goods coming from Ireland even if they know we are open to UK unchecked imports (aside from fines that you mentioned).

But surely the EU would not take kindly to such a situation, which would enable the UK to simply skirt the EU controls and effectively mean they maintain access to the EU market without any of the current obligations. That would seem to be something very beneficial to the UK.

It is open for the EU to heavily fine Ireland. Based on what history do you think ROI is going to ignore border with NI and piss off the 26 and bring the integrity of the Customs Union into question?

The EU is it’s members it as a body must follow the rules as set out by its members the treaties and set out by its institutions. The claims made by First Up are in my opinion close to the kind made by some pro Brexit people before and post referendum.

Leroy42

Thanks, I understand the discussion now. Got a bit lost in the back and forth yesterday.

Really Interested

Leroy42 wrote: »

OK, so then the argument is that there is no ability for the EU to place additional controls on goods coming from Ireland even if they know we are open to UK unchecked imports (aside from fines that you mentioned).

But surely the EU would not take kindly to such a situation, which would enable the UK to simply skirt the EU controls and effectively mean they maintain access to the EU market without any of the current obligations. That would seem to be something very beneficial to the UK.

It is open for the EU to heavily fine Ireland. Based on what history do you think ROI is going to ignore border with NI and piss off the 26 and bring the integrity of the Customs Union into question?

The EU is it’s members it as a body must follow the rules as set out by its members the treaties and set out by its institutions. The claims made by First Up are in my opinion close to the kind made by some pro Brexit people before and post referendum.

First Up

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You have said, based on unnamed unofficial sources allegedly discussing contingencies in Brussels, that consideration is being given by the EU to having a customs border between the Republic and the rest of the EU.

Since this would be a) illegal and b) a dagger in the heart of the EU, people are confused as to why you would be talking unsupported nonsense like that while pretending to be an EU insider.

I said nothing of the sort and neither (to my knowledge) has anyone in Brussels. Ireland is in the Single Market and retains all the benefits (and obligations) that go with it.

A check of documentation is not a customs border. The infrastructure is in place at all EU points of entry and the technology and systems for pre-shipment checks are already in daily use for other trade.

It would be a lot harder if we were talking about land border within the EU but we are not - we are talking about a land border outside the EU and sea/air borders within it.

This is a unique situation and if the UK crashes out, unique measures will be needed - and deployed.

listermint

First Up wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort and neither (to my knowledge) has anyone in Brussels. Ireland is in the Single Market and retains all the benefits (and obligations) that go with it.

A check of documentation is not a customs border. The infrastructure is in place at all EU points of entry and the technology and systems for pre-shipment checks are already in daily use for other trade.

It would be a lot harder if we were talking about land border within the EU but we are not - we are talking about a land border outside the EU and sea/air borders within it.

This is a unique situation and if the UK crashes out, unique measures will be needed - and deployed.

So there's no examples of this you can point to then.

You just made it up?

cantwbr1

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wonder what contingencies the government have set aside for this? It seems to me that nothing has been done. We will need, at the least, a significant increase in customs officers. Are we really going to be ready to place a complete and effective control customs process in place by March 19?

Based on the performance of the Irish Govt/Civil Service to date in the Brexit negotiations I think that this scenario is unlikely. They went about their business in preparation for Phase 1 quietly and effectively so I think that is reasonable to assume a similar approach to the doomsday scenario of Mar 19

Zubeneschamali

First Up wrote: »

A check of documentation is not a customs border.

Now you are contradicting yourself.

Your entire scare story is based on the idea that if we do not police the border with NI, that the EU will have to police a border with RoI, so clearly it is based on the idea that these checks ARE a customs border.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort and neither (to my knowledge) has anyone in Brussels. Ireland is in the Single Market and retains all the benefits (and obligations) that go with it.

A check of documentation is not a customs border. The infrastructure is in place at all EU points of entry and the technology and systems for pre-shipment checks are already in daily use for other trade.

It would be a lot harder if we were talking about land border within the EU but we are not - we are talking about a land border outside the EU and sea/air borders within it.

This is a unique situation and if the UK crashes out, unique measures will be needed - and deployed.

And it’s my opinion that any such checks would be illegal.

First Up

Really Interested wrote: »

It is open for the EU to heavily fine Ireland. Based on what history do you think ROI is going to ignore border with NI and piss off the 26 and bring the integrity of the Customs Union into question?

The EU is it’s members it as a body must follow the rules as set out by its members the treaties and set out by its institutions. The claims made by First Up are in my opinion close to the kind made by some pro Brexit people before and post referendum.

Trust me, the only thing I share with Brexit people is our membership of the human race. We don't even occupy the same planet.

Yes, the UK had hoped to "Trojanise" (as the phrase used in Brussels) Ireland - thinking that the GFA and CTA would get primacy in the negotiations and could thereby be used as leverage for a free trade deal. That was knocked firmly on the head some time back and Ireland took its turn wielding the EU's hammer.

The UK didn't really have a Plan B and this has put the cat among the pigeons in Whitehall, with the Brexiteers wanting to flounce off in patriotic outrage.

But the border issue hasn't gone away and it is fully recognised in Brussels as a complication. The "Blue Skies" discussion includes the feasibility of free movement in Ireland but no back door through Ireland for the UK. This is a perfectly legitimate thing to explore and it is not being discussed as a threat or punishment to Ireland. But it does also allow for circumstances in which a relaxed Irish border would be abused.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

Trust me, the only thing I share with Brexit people is our membership of the human race. We don't even occupy the same planet.

Yes, the UK had hoped to "Trojanise" (as the phrase used in Brussels) Ireland - thinking that the GFA and CTA would get primacy in the negotiations and could thereby be used as leverage for a free trade deal. That was knocked firmly on the head some time back and Ireland took its turn wielding the EU's hammer.

The UK didn't really have a Plan B and this has put the cat among the pigeons in Whitehall, with the Brexiteers wanting to flounce off in patriotic outrage.

But the border issue hasn't gone away and it is fully recognised in Brussels as a complication. The "Blue Skies" discussion includes the feasibility of free movement in Ireland but no back door through Ireland for the UK. This is a perfectly legitimate thing to explore and it is not being discussed as a threat or punishment to Ireland. But it does also allow for circumstances in which a relaxed Irish border would be abused.

I agree with most of what you say I just think any checks of goods leaving Ireland would in my opinion be illegal. It very well may have been raised but it would be illegal.

CelticRambler

listermint wrote: »

So there's no examples of this you can point to then.

You just made it up?

While not wishing to defend First Up's position, I've cited one example above, regarding the movement of cattle. A staunchly loyalist beef farmer in Antrim cannot just pop over to Dumfries and buy a bullock, load it on a trailer, bring it across the Irish Sea and drive unchecked off the ferry. Even though the origin and destination are two points within the UKofGBandNI, EU rules allow for the creation of barriers to free movement if there's a good reason (see here to see just how many hoops our NI farmer friend has to jump through to bring in that bullock)

When it comes to disease control, there are very good reasons. Extending that to cover everything that might be produced in the Republic is an entirely different story.

On the other hand, this is just one of many "them and us" arrangements that undermine the DUP's staunch opposition to NI having special status, where "Great Britain" is already treated as a separate territory to Northern Ireland.

Skedaddle

They're basically trying to use Irish nationalism against the EU and against Irish interests. They really have no idea what Irish nationalism is about and are rather naively thinking it's just the same as English nationalism and will fall into line. They've also a highly selective memory about history and Anglo-Irish relations and tend to think Ireland is some kind of utterly dependent little possession that has been a bit naughty and secretly yearns for mother England.

Also this is largely fake friendliness - you can be damn sure that if we did leave the EU and join them in their flight of fantasy that as soon as Ireland was a competitor or any kind of obstacle, they'd jettison us or throw us under the first bus.

I'm not being anti English, rather I'm being crritical of right-wing jingoism in the UK that's currently running the place.

You're looking at an aspect of self serving mostly English (rather than British) nationalism that really doesn't see us as anything other than a tool to achieve an objective.

Zubeneschamali

Really Interested wrote: »

It very well may have been raised but it would be illegal.

Likewise, I would not be surprised if the idea was floated in a brainstorming session or simply around the water cooler as an emergency measure when someone says "everything is on the table".

Say the UK crashes out in March 2019 with no agreements in place and no possibility to secure our border in time (short of machine-gunning trucks trying to cross), a Flying Squad of customs officials hunting British goods might be imagined, and the ferries would be an obvious choke point.

But any such regime would have to be designed so that the free movement of goods from RoI to other EU nations is unaffected or it would be illegal.

Really Interested

CelticRambler wrote: »

While not wishing to defend First Up's position, I've cited one example above, regarding the movement of cattle. A staunchly loyalist beef farmer in Antrim cannot just pop over to Dumfries and buy a bullock, load it on a trailer, bring it across the Irish Sea and drive unchecked off the ferry. Even though the origin and destination are two points within the UKofGBandNI, EU rules allow for the creation of barriers to free movement if there's a good reason (see here to see just how many hoops our NI farmer friend has to jump through to bring in that bullock)

When it comes to disease control, there are very good reasons. Extending that to cover everything that might be produced in the Republic is an entirely different story.

On the other hand, this is just one of many "them and us" arrangements that undermine the DUP's staunch opposition to NI having special status, where "Great Britain" is already treated as a separate territory to Northern Ireland.

The UK government has had exclusion orders on people travelling from NI to Mainland UK, while on the face of breach of free movement as its a internal to the state as such is not a EU issue.

In effect ROI could have restrictions on movement between Cork and Kerry but not Donegal and Derry.

Skedaddle

Really Interested wrote: »

The UK government has had exclusion orders on people travelling from NI to Mainland UK, while on the face of breach of free movement as its a internal to the state as such is not a EU issue.

That's because it's effectively a legal / policing issue applying to one individual much like a barring order, being electronically tagged or any other range of sanctions. It's not something that applies generally to a whole population, region or class of people. It's part of a criminal justice process.

Really Interested

Skedaddle wrote: »

That's because it's effectively a legal / policing issue applying to one individual much like a barring order, being electronically tagged or any other range of sanctions. It's not something that applies generally to a whole population, region or class of people. It's part of a criminal justice process.

Yes but UK can not willy billy say ROI resident not allowed to travel to say Wales. Even if it was just one person of course the UK can invoke very narrow exceptions under EU law but when internal to UK the state can say we don’t like you.

The point is internal to the UK EU rules usually do not apply.

CelticRambler

Really Interested wrote: »

The UK government has had exclusion orders on people travelling from NI to Mainland UK, while on the face of breach of free movement as its a internal to the state as such is not a EU issue.

In effect ROI could have restrictions on movement between Cork and Kerry but not Donegal and Derry.

Those are specific to individual, identifiable people, in much the same way as certain known soccer hooligans are banned from travelling to away games. If the Irish government tried to ban everyone from Kerry travelling to Dublin ... :rolleyes: ... ... :pac:

Well, if they did, any Kerryman could take a case against the government for a breach of their human rights.

When it comes to the cattle-ban, it applies to every British cow, born or unborn, with similar barriers being imposed on the importation of continental livestock, so on the face of it, it's anti-European protectionism. But it's not: there are good reasons of biosecurity, and a blanket approach is justified.

Once again: the point is not who does what with a piece of beef, it's that there are "legitimate" barriers already in place for certain types of trade and mechanisms for monitoring compliance, and that there is already a recognition by the UK-Westminster that NI is not part of Great Britain.

When it is pointed out to the Brexiteer numbskulls that borders work both ways. They can't dismiss the Irish border with the argument "if you want it, you can pay for it" because, first of all, they're the ones who want to control immigration; and secondly, if they allow Irish traders to freely cross the border and sell EU products in the UK, they must allow the rest of the world do the same.

Really Interested

CelticRambler wrote: »

Those are specific to individual, identifiable people, in much the same way as certain known soccer hooligans are banned from travelling to away games. If the Irish government tried to ban everyone from Kerry travelling to Dublin ... :rolleyes: ... ... :pac:

Well, if they did, any Kerryman could take a case against the government for a breach of their human rights.

When it comes to the cattle-ban, it applies to every British cow, born or unborn, with similar barriers being imposed on the importation of continental livestock, so on the face of it, it's anti-European protectionism. But it's not: there are good reasons of biosecurity, and a blanket approach is justified.

Once again: the point is not who does what with a piece of beef, it's that there are "legitimate" barriers already in place for certain types of trade and mechanisms for monitoring compliance, and that there is already a recognition by the UK-Westminster that NI is not part of Great Britain.

When it is pointed out to the Brexiteer numbskulls that borders work both ways. They can't dismiss the Irish border with the argument "if you want it, you can pay for it" because, first of all, they're the ones who want to control immigration; and secondly, if they allow Irish traders to freely cross the border and sell EU products in the UK, they must allow the rest of the world do the same.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/brexit-could-boost-live-cattle-export-trade-to-uk-34874145.html

In 2010 95,000 head went from ROI to NI plenty of head going to mainland UK. My understanding is once the cow complied with EU regs in traceability then it can move.

Really Interested

CelticRambler wrote: »

Those are specific to individual, identifiable people, in much the same way as certain known soccer hooligans are banned from travelling to away games. If the Irish government tried to ban everyone from Kerry travelling to Dublin ... :rolleyes: ... ... :pac:

Well, if they did, any Kerryman could take a case against the government for a breach of their human rights.

When it comes to the cattle-ban, it applies to every British cow, born or unborn, with similar barriers being imposed on the importation of continental livestock, so on the face of it, it's anti-European protectionism. But it's not: there are good reasons of biosecurity, and a blanket approach is justified.

Once again: the point is not who does what with a piece of beef, it's that there are "legitimate" barriers already in place for certain types of trade and mechanisms for monitoring compliance, and that there is already a recognition by the UK-Westminster that NI is not part of Great Britain.

When it is pointed out to the Brexiteer numbskulls that borders work both ways. They can't dismiss the Irish border with the argument "if you want it, you can pay for it" because, first of all, they're the ones who want to control immigration; and secondly, if they allow Irish traders to freely cross the border and sell EU products in the UK, they must allow the rest of the world do the same.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/brexit-could-boost-live-cattle-export-trade-to-uk-34874145.html

In 2010 95,000 head went from ROI to NI plenty of head going to mainland UK. My understanding is once the cow complied with EU regs in traceability then it can move.

Really Interested

Really Interested wrote: »

Yes but UK can not willy billy say ROI resident not allowed to travel to say Wales. Even if it was just one person of course the UK can invoke very narrow exceptions under EU law but when internal to UK the state can say we don’t like you.

The point is internal to the UK EU rules usually do not apply.

which is how the Scottish Parliament managed to get away with excluding Non Scottish Brits from free university places.

First Up

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But any such regime would have to be designed so that the free movement of goods from RoI to other EU nations is unaffected or it would be illegal.

Its gone a bit further than the water cooler but so have lots of things.

But the fundamental point remains that if Ireland cannot guarantee that the goods are of Irish or EU origin/compliant, 'a verification process is quite in order.

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

Its gone a bit further than the water cooler but so have lots of things.

But the fundamental point remains that if Ireland cannot guarantee that the goods are of Irish or EU origin/compliant, 'a verification process is quite in order.

How does Poland handle such a situation?

Nate

Really Interested

Aegir wrote: »

which is how the Scottish Parliament managed to get away with excluding Non Scottish Brits from free university places.

Exactly but ROI or Irish passport carrying NI residents did get advantage.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

Its gone a bit further than the water cooler but so have lots of things.

But the fundamental point remains that if Ireland cannot guarantee that the goods are of Irish or EU origin/compliant, 'a verification process is quite in order.

Again can you point to any document to support your claim. Or situation in the past where it happened.

In the 1960’s the USA discussed a false flag event when the President was advised he pointed out it was illegal, just because it’s been discussed does not mean it’s possible which is my point.

First Up

Really Interested wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Its gone a bit further than the water cooler but so have lots of things.

But the fundamental point remains that if Ireland cannot guarantee that the goods are of Irish or EU origin/compliant, 'a verification process is quite in order.

Again can you point to any document to support your claim. Or situation in the past where it happened.

In the 1960’s the USA discussed a false flag event when the President was advised he pointed out it was illegal, just because it’s been discussed does not mean it’s possible which is my point.

Lets wait to see how Brexit develops but you can rest assured that the EU will have drafts covering all eventualities.

First Up

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Its gone a bit further than the water cooler but so have lots of things.

But the fundamental point remains that if Ireland cannot guarantee that the goods are of Irish or EU origin/compliant, 'a verification process is quite in order.

How does Poland handle such a situation?

Nate

Poland's external borders are well monitored. There is some flexibility given to the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad but mostly it just allows for people to move in and out.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

Lets wait to see how Brexit develops but you can rest assured that the EU will have drafts covering all eventualities.

That’s what I find interesting on whole sheds of issue EU has identified plans. The only place I have heard of your claim is from you on this thread.

First Up

Really Interested wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Lets wait to see how Brexit develops but you can rest assured that the EU will have drafts covering all eventualities.

That’s what I find interesting on whole sheds of issue EU has identified plans. The only place I have heard of your claim is from you on this thread.

My claim about what? That the EU is contingency planning for all possible scenarios?

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

Poland's external borders are well monitored. There is some flexibility given to the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad but mostly it just allows for people to move in and out.

So the two possible out comes are No border at all (the UK remains SM and CU compliant), or a Border like Poland's

There is no middle ground.

The Decision to be made is the UKs to make, are they going to sign a treaty to remain compliant. If not, its a hard border.

Nate

First Up

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Poland's external borders are well monitored. There is some flexibility given to the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad but mostly it just allows for people to move in and out.

So the two possible out comes are No border at all (the UK remains SM and CU compliant), or a Border like Poland's

There is no middle ground.

The Decision to be made is the UKs to make, are they going to sign a treaty to remain compliant. If not, its a hard border.

Nate

As are Slovakia's, Croatia's.....

Local trade is given some leeway but nothing else.

There is plenty of expertise available from the EU to member states with external borders. These boys (and girls) are wise to every scam and stunt. A "hard" Irish border would be the same.

Rjd2

The trade minister chatting with Andrew Neil the other day.

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/961282397194072064

Nothing to be worried about whatsoever.:P

CelticRambler

Really Interested wrote: »

My understanding is once the cow complied with EU regs in traceability then it can move.

Yes. There's no ban, but there are checks and controls which is what First Up was saying.

To a certain extent, it's the same as the French reinstating check-points on the German border a couple of years ago - if you can make a reasonable case for imposing a (temporary) barrier, then the EU will tolerate a certain level of damage to the Four Pillars, but excluding the people and products of a whole country because of the belligerence of a different, adjacent rouge state is not reasonable.

That's why progress on the "Irish Border question" was one of the three conditions to be met in moving to Phase 2, and they UK told to come up with a workable solution or accept regulatory alignment. The last thing the EU wants or needs is for anyone or anything coming from Ireland to be subject to so many controls that people start asking "what's the point of being in the EU any more?"

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

As are Slovakia's, Croatia's.....

Local trade is given some leeway but nothing else.

There is plenty of expertise available from the EU to member states with external borders. These boys (and girls) are wise to every scam and stunt. A "hard" Irish border would be the same.

I would expect it to be.

Nate

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

My claim about what? That the EU is contingency planning for all possible scenarios?

That as part of that plan they are looking at illegal solutions.

First Up

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yes. There's no ban, but there are checks and controls which is what First Up was saying.

To a certain extent, it's the same as the French reinstating check-points on the German border a couple of years ago - if you can make a reasonable case for imposing a (temporary) barrier, then the EU will tolerate a certain level of damage to the Four Pillars, but excluding the people and products of a whole country because of the belligerence of a different, adjacent rouge state is not reasonable.

That's why progress on the "Irish Border question" was one of the three conditions to be met in moving to Phase 2, and they UK told to come up with a workable solution or accept regulatory alignment. The last thing the EU wants or needs is for anyone or anything coming from Ireland to be subject to so many controls that people start asking "what's the point of being in the EU any more?"

Germany was able to put a ban on Spanish cucumbers a few years ago when they were suspected of carrying E Coli. It can be done.

Confirming the origin of consignments from Ireland is not a barrier, or a control. It is simply ensuring that the correct rules are applied.

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

Germany was able to put a ban on Spanish cucumbers a few years ago when they were suspected of carrying E Coli. It can be done.

Confirming the origin of consignments from Ireland is not a barrier, or a control. It is simply ensuring that the correct rules are applied.

Yes that is within the public health exception. But can you point at what exception that the EU can impose checks on all goods from ROI.