Kirwin Action Group

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

So the onus is on the swimmers/drivers to ensure the local authority is carrying out its statutory remit? And if they don't they're at fault? Mind you don't fall off that high horse up there... :rolleyes:

No - they hold local authority to account through the Cllrs that are elected. Cllrs are held to account in elections every 5 years here.

Anyways back to the anti social behavior of "Rat Running".
For society to associate you with a "Rat" says it all really. If this behavior of driving via local roads to avoid traffic on National Roads was called "Mouse Moving" would it carry the same social stigma?

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

No - they hold local authority to account through the Cllrs that are elected. Cllrs are held to account in elections every 5 years here.

Anyways back to the anti social behavior of "Rat Running".
For society to associate you with a "Rat" says it all really. If this behavior of driving via local roads to avoid traffic on National Roads was called "Mouse Moving" would it carry the same social stigma?

Maybe I'm alone here, but I dont care if people say that I'm taking a rat run.
I know that I dont take the best roads to get where I want to go. What I take is the most efficient route available to me. I dont drive through fields, I drive on public roads.

Anyway, the main issue is not being discussed correctly here. The problem, in my eyes is the road network, and town planning.

I would continue to take the M6 all the way to Galway, if it wasn't blocked up for 2km every morning since the new motorway opened. This is either bad planning or bad infrastructure.

I wouldn't take rat runs from Knocknacarra to Westside if there was proper road infrastructure. There is not.

Improve the National Road infrastructure, and less people will drive on smaller roads. Until then, this is not something that will be avoided, and definitely should not be policed.

Returning to the original point of this thread, the Kirwan roundabout. The councilors say that they are using scientific data to improve traffic issues in the area. Good. That's what is needed to help improve infrastructure, and maybe get a few less people driving the rat runs.

xckjoo

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe I'm alone here, but I dont care if people say that I'm taking a rat run.
I know that I dont take the best roads to get where I want to go. What I take is the most efficient route available to me. I dont drive through fields, I drive on public roads.

Anyway, the main issue is not being discussed correctly here. The problem, in my eyes is the road network, and town planning.

I would continue to take the M6 all the way to Galway, if it wasn't blocked up for 2km every morning since the new motorway opened. This is either bad planning or bad infrastructure.

I wouldn't take rat runs from Knocknacarra to Westside if there was proper road infrastructure. There is not.

Improve the National Road infrastructure, and less people will drive on smaller roads. Until then, this is not something that will be avoided, and definitely should not be policed.

Returning to the original point of this thread, the Kirwan roundabout. The councilors say that they are using scientific data to improve traffic issues in the area. Good. That's what is needed to help improve infrastructure, and maybe get a few less people driving the rat runs.

Just do me a favor and drive extra carefully when you're on them. I live on road that could probably be described as a rat run and the behavior of some drives is unbelievable. Most people should never be given a drivers license

xckjoo

xckjoo wrote: »

Just do me a favor and drive extra carefully when you're on them. I live on road that could probably be described as a rat run and the behavior of some drives is unbelievable. Most people should never be given a drivers license

I'd seriously be interested to know what road you are speaking about?
There is a road I take in the morning, and I'm shocked by the speed by some of the people on it

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

What road are you referring too? "Upgrading" can be a double edge sword. So a local boreen road has been widened to facilitate this through traffic now?

I'll send you a PM - no need to encourage anyone who hasn't copped on to it to use the road!

But yes, the road was upgraded to cope better (still not fully) with through traffic. And having people use this road removed them from two troublesome intersections

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

No - they hold local authority to account through the Cllrs that are elected. Cllrs are held to account in elections every 5 years here.

Anyways back to the anti social behavior of "Rat Running".
For society to associate you with a "Rat" says it all really. If this behavior of driving via local roads to avoid traffic on National Roads was called "Mouse Moving" would it carry the same social stigma?

Anti-social behaviour! Now you're equating people using an alternative legal route with scumbags causing havoc in neighbourhoods? Forget the high horse, you might need a crane to get you down safely from that lofty perch you've created up there. :rolleyes:

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe I'm alone here, but I dont care if people say that I'm taking a rat run.

You "care" enough to respond to a boards.ie thread about it though?

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

Anti-social behaviour! Now you're equating people using an alternative legal route with scumbags causing havoc in neighbourhoods? Forget the high horse, you might need a crane to get you down safely from that lofty perch you've created up there. :rolleyes:

But I like the horse you gave me, such a noble and dignified creature.:D
Once again Zzippy you seem to think that I invented the term "Rat Running". I don't know if society would associate you with a "Scumbag" though?
I have not heard the term "Scumbag Rat Runners" ever.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

You "care" enough to respond to a boards.ie thread about it though?

Wow, you really take quotes out of context. I'm done with replying to you. Enjoy your anger

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow, you really take quotes out of context. I'm done with replying to you. Enjoy your anger

Not angry at all, I am not doing the rat running. I strongly suspect its you who is angry, you know your own behaviour is been labelled in this manner but yet you still do it?
"
Maybe I'm alone here, but I dont care if people say that I'm taking a rat run.
I know that I dont take the best roads to get where I want to go. What I take is the most efficient route availableto me.
"

I was in town bright and early yesterday and parked in the Dyke Road car park.

I left town at about 1 pm and as there were cars queuing into town I turned right and went by Terryland park and the Menlo hotel.

I counted 75 cars queuing from the lights at the end of the Dyke Road back to almost the underpass at the bridge.

Totally anecdotally - Google maps seems to emphasise roads on a combination of their label (M,N,R,L) and the volume of traffic they get - the Coolough Road is given the same importance when you zoom out as the Monivea Road, old N18, old Dublin road, the Parkmore Road.

Edit: the Castlegar road isn't given any particular emphasis for reference - I think it is an indication of just how many people are using this road.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

I was in town bright and early yesterday and parked in the Dyke Road car park.

I left town at about 1 pm and as there were cars queuing into town I turned right and went by Terryland park and the Menlo hotel.

I counted 75 cars queuing from the lights at the end of the Dyke Road back to almost the underpass at the bridge.

Totally anecdotally - Google maps seems to emphasise roads on a combination of their label (M,N,R,L) and the volume of traffic they get - the Coolough Road is given the same importance when you zoom out as the Monivea Road, old N18, old Dublin road, the Parkmore Road.

Edit: the Castlegar road isn't given any particular emphasis for reference - I think it is an indication of just how many people are using this road.

A combination of extra people choosing to come in that way to avoid the Headford Rd traffic, which can be horrendous, and the light sequence is different on weekends - the green light coming from the Dyke road is far shorter than during the week, another indication that more people are using that road to commute. Obviously the city council recognise this and facilitate it with a longer green light on weekdays.

Unrealistic

I don't understand the tendency to jump to the most outlandish interpretation of statements in this thread.

So far we've had:
- A simple observation that heavy traffic through a residential area has undesirable effects gets mischaracterized as a call for gated communities. Completely ignoring all the various measures used worldwide to discourage through traffic through residential areas without actually restricting access.
- Describing a choice of route as rat running, using the dictionary definition of the term, is misrepresented as describing individuals as rats as a personal insult.
- Describing a behaviour as anti-social gets an extreme response ridiculing a connection to ASBO type criminal behaviour that was never made in the first place. Anti-social is a description that equally applies to activities such as cycling on pavements or parking in disabled spaces and not just scumbags causing havoc in neighbourhoods.

Then we have the verbal gymnastics that seems to be intended to try to prove that a classic example of rat running (leaving a main road, to drive perpendicular to where you actually want to go, on a much longer, much sh!ttier road, just to get you back to the main road again) isn't actually rat running.

We start with a response to my initial description of the practise of leaving the Headford Road, to avoid traffic by taking a substantially longer detour only to get back onto the Headford Road, as rat running.

Zzippy wrote: »

For those of us who drive according to the speed limit, it's a legitimate alternative route to avoid traffic. <snip>Calling it a rat run has connotations of rat runs in city housing estates with the implication that it should be closed to through traffic.

Then there is further discussion of what is a legitimate route.

Zzippy wrote: »

When I reach Ballindooley Cross, I can take the N84 into traffic, or the Menlo road into Woodquay, beside where I work. Both are legitimate routes, there is no law that says I must use a national road.

Zzippy wrote: »

There's no right or wrong about someone legitimately using a public road,

Zzippy wrote: »

Who decides who has legitimate business using a road? You? The council? <snip> If people find an alternative route that saves them time they will use it. If they are obeying speed limits they are doing nothing wrong.

Until we finally arrive at a declaration that all routes on a public road are 'legitimate'.

Zzippy wrote: »

If someone drives in a responsible manner and is considerate to other road users, including and especially pedestrians and cyclists, a public road which is not a cul de sac is a legitimate route to take.

So if use of 'legitimate routes' is not rat running, and all possible routes are 'legitimate routes', then ergo there is no such thing as rat running. QED.

Zzippy wrote: »

Calling it a village is a bit of a stretch, but in any case, it has the same legal protection as other urban areas in that the speed limit is 50kmh. Just because you call it a village does not confer upon it any protected status or restrictions on traffic volume.

Why is it "a bit of a stretch" to call Menlo a village? The city council has designated it as a village and has afforded it multiple specific protections on this basis. What would you think it is if it isn't a village?

Unrealistic

Zzippy wrote: »

The solution to increased traffic volumes is to provide alternatives such as better infrastructure, better traffic management, integrated public transport that works, better facilities for cycling, etc. to encourage them to use arterial routes or alternative modes of transport, and traffic management to discourage bad driving on "local" roads.

I agree entirely with this but the experience of other comparable cities who have dealt with this successfully is that a carrot and stick approach is required. And part of "better traffic management" includes preventing the use of local access roads as through routes. In the Netherlands, for example, in inner city areas that means designating the main roads for through traffic and everything else is a self enclosed zone with only one way in and out for cars (but any number of ways in and out for pedestrians, bicycles, buses, emergency vehicles etc.). In less built up areas, which may be comparable to the Menlo situation, they don't prevent anyone from driving into an area but make it less attractive to use them as through routes. For example, they sometimes have raised bollards of the type used on Shop Street which lower automatically whenever a car approaches but will only permit one car through every 45 seconds. People who need to get to somewhere only accessible on that road will wait 45 seconds but people for whom it was only convenient as a time saving detour won't put up with that delay and will stick to main routes.

At the end of the day Galway has an unsustainable reliance on cars. We have 70%+ of journeys taken in cars and, of those journeys, for 90%+ the only adult in the car is the driver. Plenty of people have made the observation that a limited reduction in car journeys, like during school holidays, makes for a completely different driving experience in the city. Even the closure of one school (St. Enda's) for one day earlier this term had people commenting about how smoothly the traffic was moving from the Knocknacarra direction. There are many European cities, including those with a sub 100,000 population, who have achieved statistics where cars make up only 20 something percent of the total journeys. If we were only to get half way from where we are now towards that kind of level it would make a huge difference. But it's a chicken and egg situation. People aren't going to want to switch to other modes of transport unless it is more attractive. My own personal experience of working in another European country in a city with a reasonable public transport system was that it was traffic becoming unbearable that got me out of my car and onto public transport. A car was a nicer place to sit if I was getting home in 30 minutes but not so attractive when it started to take me more than a hour to do a route I could do in 40 minutes on public transport. But it was improvements in access for pedestrians (widened pavements, easier crossings) that made me realise that walking the same distance in 50 minutes was an even more attractive option. It took ten minutes longer but the journey was a pleasure rather than a stress generator so I arrived at work in a productive frame of mind.

If we look at the Menlo situation, in a short space of time it has gone from a pattern where cycling to secondary school was the norm to today where no one does. There are only three or four hardy souls who cycle that road on a daily basis as a work commute even though you can be in town in 15 minutes. Walking it means taking your life in your hand, even though it is only 40 minutes from Eyre Square, so pretty much no one does it. There are no buses beyond Crestwood except for a school bus once a day but even that is not very practical as the only way to get home is to leave school on the dot in the afternoon. No allowance for after school football or whatever. But you pay a fixed cost even if you can't use the return trip three afternoons a week. So many parents just say "stuff it" and opt out of the bus altogether. Ironically at the time when cycling was popular the route was being shared with the trucks from two quarries and a concrete works but it was still considered safer than it is now. There were protests against the traffic of those businesses too but I think there was also a consciousness among the owners of those businesses that they were part of that community and didn't need the aggravation that would come with having their drivers behave irresponsibly on the road or, even worse, being responsible for an injury or death. That is in contrast with the 'couldn't give a damn' attitude exhibited by many of the hundreds of drivers who speed through there today.

If the Menlo road reverted to local traffic only it could become attractive to cycle there again. The most distant secondary schools are on 25 minutes away by bike (St. Enda's & Salerno). All the of the main employment centres, including Parkmore, are within a 30 minute cycle. Each of those bicycles could take a car off the Headford Road or Bothar na dTreabh and help the whole city to move more smoothly. The potential is there. Dublin is already at a stage where more people commute to the city centre by bicycle than do so on the Luas. The Dutch experience was that once they removed through traffic from residential areas and restricted it to the main arteries they didn't even have to provide cycle lanes or any other infrastructure in those areas. The reduced traffic volumes was enough for people to feel safe cycling and walking.

The quickest and most effective way to improve Galway traffic is through measures like these. A recognition that it's about getting people from A to B, not about getting cars from A to B, and the focus should be getting people to choose more effective methods of getting from A to B. That means more public transport, more frequent and reliable public transport, cheaper public transport (one French city Galway gets compared with even runs its for free to encourage maximum use) and encouraging people to walk and cycle.

what_traffic

Unrealistic wrote: »

Ironically at the time when cycling was popular the route was being shared with the trucks from two quarries and a concrete works but it was still considered safer than it is now. There were protests against the traffic of those businesses too but I think there was also a consciousness among the owners of those businesses that they were part of that community and didn't need the aggravation that would come with having their drivers behave irresponsibly on the road or, even worse, being responsible for an injury or death. That is in contrast with the 'couldn't give a damn' attitude exhibited by many of the hundreds of drivers who speed through there today.

That is really interesting observation.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

A combination of extra people choosing to come in that way to avoid the Headford Rd traffic, which can be horrendous, and the light sequence is different on weekends - the green light coming from the Dyke road is far shorter than during the week, another indication that more people are using that road to commute. Obviously the city council recognise this and facilitate it with a longer green light on weekdays.

Hmmm interesting. I suspect you are 100% on the money here Zzippy. It is very odd that they would funnel so much Car traffic into the very heart of the City at Woodquay at such a small traffic junction, but knowing Galway City Council Roads Engineers it would not surprise me at all.

Zzippy

Unrealistic wrote: »

The quickest and most effective way to improve Galway traffic is through measures like these. A recognition that it's about getting people from A to B, not about getting cars from A to B, and the focus should be getting people to choose more effective methods of getting from A to B. That means more public transport, more frequent and reliable public transport, cheaper public transport (one French city Galway gets compared with even runs its for free to encourage maximum use) and encouraging people to walk and cycle.

As I said numerous times earlier in the thread, looking at why people are using the road and providing alternatives is the answer, not attacking those using the road and a blanket ban on through traffic. If the options are to sit in traffic on the Headford Road for 30-40 mins (or worse at times) or to take the Menlo road and be in Woodquay in 15 mins, it's a no-brainer, and no amount of trying to shame people that they are not taking the "right" route is going to change that.

xckjoo

Zzippy wrote: »

As I said numerous times earlier in the thread, looking at why people are using the road and providing alternatives is the answer, not attacking those using the road and a blanket ban on through traffic. If the options are to sit in traffic on the Headford Road for 30-40 mins (or worse at times) or to take the Menlo road and be in Woodquay in 15 mins, it's a no-brainer, and no amount of trying to shame people that they are not taking the "right" route is going to change that.

I kinda agree. No point in trying to deal with it one-on-one as even if some people did change their behavior, a proportion of them won't care and they probably overlap with the proportion of people that'll drive like a demon through the area. Better to disincentivise the use of the road through improving infrastructure on the main road and adding traffic calming to the other routes. If it's going to take 25 mins on Headford Road or 20 mins on Menlo road with some annoyances and lower priority for junctions, then you're probably going to stay on the Headford Road.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

As I said numerous times earlier in the thread, looking at why people are using the road and providing alternatives is the answer, not attacking those using the road and a blanket ban on through traffic. If the options are to sit in traffic on the Headford Road for 30-40 mins (or worse at times) or to take the Menlo road and be in Woodquay in 15 mins, it's a no-brainer, and no amount of trying to shame people that they are not taking the "right" route is going to change that.

The alternative is already there! It is called the National Road. The fundamental problem is the sheer volume of Private Car Traffic travelling into Galway City. It is horribly inefficient mode of transporting people when majority of occupancy is 1 person per car. The headline of this article illustrates the problem
More than 450,000 car journeys into Galway City each week
http://connachttribune.ie/450000-car-journeys-galway-city-week/

Until that is addressed, then the only solution for the Rat Running will be creating penalty's for those who in engage in it.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

The alternative is already there! It is called the National Road. The fundamental problem is the sheer volume of Private Car Traffic travelling into Galway City. It is horribly inefficient mode of transporting people when majority of occupancy is 1 person per car. The headline of this article illustrates the problem
More than 450,000 car journeys into Galway City each week
http://connachttribune.ie/450000-car-journeys-galway-city-week/

Until that is addressed, then the only solution for the Rat Running will be creating penalty's for those who in engage in it.

And the Menlo road is an alternative for people who do not want to sit in traffic. There is no legal obligation to use a national route, and no mechanism in law to enforce penalties for people legally using a public road, so your continued bleating about rat runners is an exercise in futility. Focus on why people are avoiding the Headford Road and you may be some way to a solution. Typical whinger, all about problems and not about solutions.

WallyGUFC

what_traffic wrote: »

The alternative is already there! It is called the National Road. The fundamental problem is the sheer volume of Private Car Traffic travelling into Galway City. It is horribly inefficient mode of transporting people when majority of occupancy is 1 person per car. The headline of this article illustrates the problem
More than 450,000 car journeys into Galway City each week
http://connachttribune.ie/450000-car-journeys-galway-city-week/

Until that is addressed, then the only solution for the Rat Running will be creating penalty's for those who in engage in it.

Most people who make those journeys have no viable alternative way of getting into town at the times they need to be there (rubbish bus service, no park & ride, etc.) You can't punish people for driving on a public road unless of course they're breaking driving laws.

Mrs OBumble

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Most people who make those journeys have no viable alternative way of getting into town at the times they need to be there (rubbish bus service, no park & ride, etc.) You can't punish people for driving on a public road unless of course they're breaking driving laws.

Indeed. This is particularly true for the Headford Rd direction.

I'd see it as the first priority for a P&R with bus-lanes, because the existing road is wide enough to take them already. Done well it could make a big difference.

what_traffic

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Most people who make those journeys have no viable alternative way of getting into town at the times they need to be there (rubbish bus service, no park & ride, etc.) You can't punish people for driving on a public road unless of course they're breaking driving laws.

Then we should change the laws and bring in the services like Park and Ride and reliable Regional Bus services.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

And the Menlo road is an alternative for people who do not want to sit in CAR traffic. There is no legal obligation to use a national route, and no mechanism in law to enforce penalties for people legally using a public road, so your continued bleating about rat runners is an exercise in futility. Focus on why people are avoiding the Headford Road and you may be some way to a solution. Typical whinger, all about problems and not about solutions.

Not yet, one can only live in hope that the rat runners will eventually be curtailed. So lets build P & R and have a decent regional bus service - will that curtail the rat running that "people" like you engage in Zzippy? Very much doubt it based on other location in the City. Ross Hill comes to mind.

J.pilkington

what_traffic wrote: »

Not yet, one can only live in hope that the rat runners will eventually be curtailed. So lets build P & R and have a decent regional bus service - will that curtail the rat running?

Expand on P&R please. Massive investment in that road would be required to facilitate a bus lane / cycle lane, however you are anti road investment right? Do you think people using this route will exchange their cars for a bus only for the bus to trundle along the curragh line in the same queue of cars and drop people off at a location which will likely involve transferring another bus.

You clearly haven’t a clue about the route and are just using it as another opportunity to soap box without actually putting forward any workable proposals other than crushing cars and the “rats” driving them (as you called them).

what_traffic

J.pilkington wrote: »

Expand on P&R please. Massive investment in that road would be required to facilitate a bus lane / cycle lane, however you are anti road investment right?

No I wont. What are taking about anti road investment?

what_traffic

J.pilkington wrote: »

You clearly haven’t a clue about the route and are just using it as another opportunity to soap box without actually putting forward any workable proposals other than crushing cars and the “rats” driving them (as you called them).

This thread is about the Kirwin Action Group.
You are the one soap boxing here. Rat running is a term widely used by the general public for this type of behavior, I did not invent it.

tobdom

what_traffic wrote: »

This thread is about the Kirwin Action Group.
You are the one soap boxing here. Rat running is a term widely used by the general public for this type of behavior, I did not invent it.

It's about the Kirwan Aciton Group indeed, who's current focus I believe is opposing the proposed changes to the Kirwan roundabout junction, due to apparent 'rat running' fears..... the same rat running that is occurring in the current as-is situation, which has instigated so much 'debate' on this thread.

The proposed changes to the Kirwan roundabout junction have been arrived at through various studies etc. (and ultimately voted on as the best option) in an effort to improve the traffic flow/throughput and improve the overall traffic situation, thus (hopefully) decreasing the desire for some commuters to use alternative routes into the city and stick to the main N-road artery...... So why are these changes opposed by the KAG? Why would the rat running get worse as a result of these changes?

I assume the KAG are very actively lobbying their local representatives & council officals and attempting to engage in meaningful & constructive discussions about the overall issue and any alternative solutions that they believe to be better options?........

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

Very much doubt it based on other location in the City. Ross Hill comes to mind.

Where's the P&R alternative for this route? The only one I know is Oranmore train station - but they trains are not frequent enough to be really effective.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

Not yet, one can only live in hope that the rat runners will eventually be curtailed. So lets build P & R and have a decent regional bus service - will that curtail the rat running that "people" like you engage in Zzippy? Very much doubt it based on other location in the City. Ross Hill comes to mind.

Ross Hill? Are you talking about the woefully inadequate train service from Oranmore? If we're going to provide real alternatives to get people out of cars and onto public transport it needs to be quicker, cheaper and more efficient than sitting in traffic. The train service is none of those things.