Alt Coin Thread (Vertcoin, OMG, CVC, PAY etc).

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

Store of value!! - have you not seen the bitcoin price graph? It might be secure relative to other crypto currencies but is it as secure as FIAT? You really are talking through your a**e

Secure as in cannot be taken from you, so yes, it's much more secure than FIAT.

Want to take your wealth across borders with you? FIAT in any large amounts? Nah.
"Just transfer it!" and have to seek permission to do so, especially for large sums? Nah.
"Use gold to store value!" which can be repossessed, can be physically stolen, can be hard to move around & looks a bit suspicious lugging golden nugs around.

Yeah, cryptos are volatile - their caps are tiny, of course they're volatile.

So, just to round things off, let's recap with a list of people who are right and people or companies who are wrong about cryptos.

Right
kaymin (knows the most about cryptos, definite genius)
Warren Buffett (says he knows nothing about cryptos, just very modest)

Wrong
Bill Gates
Peter Thiel
Mark Zuckerberg (& the Winklevii)
Mark Cuban
Steve Wozniak
Pavel Durov
Microsoft
Intel
UBS
Scotiabank
Santander
Samsung
Rabobank
Reuters
JP Morgan
ING
Deloitte
Credit Suisse
Cisco
Accenture

kaymin

grindle wrote: »

Secure as in cannot be taken from you, so yes, it's much more secure than FIAT.

Want to take your wealth across borders with you? FIAT in any large amounts? Nah.
"Just transfer it!" and have to seek permission to do so, especially for large sums? Nah.
"Use gold to store value!" which can be repossessed, can be physically stolen, can be hard to move around & looks a bit suspicious lugging golden nugs around.

Yeah, cryptos are volatile - their caps are tiny, of course they're volatile.

So, just to round things off, let's recap with a list of people who are right and people or companies who are wrong about cryptos.

Right
kaymin (knows the most about cryptos, definite genius)
Warren Buffett (says he knows nothing about cryptos, just very modest)

Wrong
Bill Gates
Peter Thiel
Mark Zuckerberg (& the Winklevii)
Mark Cuban
Steve Wozniak
Pavel Durov
Microsoft
Intel
UBS
Scotiabank
Santander
Samsung
Rabobank
Reuters
JP Morgan
ING
Deloitte
Credit Suisse
Cisco
Accenture

Well you have yourself convinced. I'll be back after the crash.

Rumpy Pumpy

Companies such as Accenture, Deloitte and Microsoft are interested in blockchain, and how it can be applied to industries they try and sell software and services to. Not into hyping crypto coins. You can download the sourcecode from github this minute and create your own cryptocurrency.

Pisscoin - a novel approach to paying for and ordering pints in your local pub. Market cap: 1.8 billion.

Akrasia

grindle wrote: »

You're arguing that trading is an outright Pyramid scheme now. Right.

Depends on what you're trading. If you're trading currencies, you're trading something that has inertia, whole economies backing them up, assets, loan portfolios, contracts, property, goods, services, regulators and international laws etc.

If you're trading commodities, you have industrial demand, consumer demand and relatively predictable supply and demand curves for the commodity being traded. If the price of a commodity goes way higher than the value of that commodity to industry/consumers then you're in bubble territory. Even gold has industrial and commercial value as a raw material/consumable.

Then you have speculative asset bubbles. Where the basis of the price of anything being traded is based purely on speculation that the price is going to be higher in the future, then a crash is inevitable to bring the price back down to it's industrial/commercial value.

Crypto Currencies have zero intrinsic value, the value is entirely based on what other people think it is going to be worth tomorrow. You never see a product or service priced in cryptocurrency, the price is always x$ worth of whatever coin is traded in exchange. The Dollar is the unit of value, the coin is just a unit of exchange which is just a private way of exchanging actual real money. At the end of the day, the same private transaction can happen with BTC, or any other version of the same technology whether it trades at 1 dollar a coin, or a thousand dollars a coin

Sparks43

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Companies such as Accenture, Deloitte and Microsoft are interested in blockchain, and how it can be applied to industries they try and sell software and services to. Not into hyping crypto coins. You can download the sourcecode from github this minute and create your own cryptocurrency.

Pisscoin - a novel approach to paying for and ordering pints in your local pub. Market cap: 1.8 billion.

I'll take 5600 pisscoins please.

Rumpy Pumpy

Sparks43 wrote: »

I'll take 5600 pisscoins please.

5600 pisscoins is worth 42 bitcoins. Because I think it should be worth that. Even though if you have it in dollars or euros I’d rather that. I’ll throw in an additional 4500 pisscoins for doing that. Let me just magic them out of fresh air by putting a value against a variable in this code here.

HODL!

kaymin

kaymin wrote: »

Well you have yourself convinced. I'll be back after the crash.

Just like you were back after this crash? Where were you with your wisdom before the drop of the last 48 hours? Where were you with any opinion on cryptos before the last 48 hours?

Anti-crypto opinions are more than welcome in here, encouraged, because any person who is serious about investing their money anywhere will want to hear all sides of the story first.

However, you just seem intent on riling up some posters with jibes like 'You don't even know what you're doing', terms like 'self-delusion' and your repetition of 'It's just a ponzi'.

You appear out of the blue to gloat at people who have possibly lost a lot of money. You have no intention of having a proper, respectful debate, let alone being open to having your opinion changed.

Just admit that you are lounging in the schadenfreude and be done with it. That's fine.

rapul

stop looking for a fight Kaymin you have just come in here all mightier than thou and no one can be right only you, you clearly are set in your ways which is fair enough but stop giving grief just cause you probably missed the boat mate.

kaymin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just like you were back after this crash? Where were you with your wisdom before the drop of the last 48 hours? Where were you with any opinion on cryptos before the last 48 hours?

Anti-crypto opinions are more than welcome in here, encouraged, because any person who is serious about investing their money anywhere will want to hear all sides of the story first.

However, you just seem intent on riling up some posters with jibes like 'You don't even know what you're doing', terms like 'self-delusion' and your repetition of 'It's just a ponzi'.

You appear out of the blue to gloat at people who have possibly lost a lot of money. You have no intention of having a proper, respectful debate, let alone being open to having your opinion changed.

Just admit that you are lounging in the schadenfreude and be done with it. That's fine.

I wasn't on this thread but I've made my feelings known offline since the start of the current run-up. Yes I could have profited if I had a different view but that doesn't change my opinion of it.

The current slide is just the beginning - one of my first posts on this thread was to advise someone today to sell out since he was at breakeven and any further decreases would eat into his capital. This is not gloating - it is genuine advice. And it's advice I offer to friends that have invested as cryptos are going one direction long-term. I presume most people here are still in profit at current prices anyway. Anyway you do what you want - very few people on this thread are open to reason.

grindle

kaymin - you're not actually saying anything reasonable, just saying it's all a scam without reading anything about it, basing your view on a total lack of knowledge - why should anybody believe you? Describe it for us, in detail.
And learn what a pyramid scheme is.

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Ethereum is the Linux for finance? What does that even mean?

It's the largest open source initiative that isn't Linux based (Android and Linux having much larger communities of devs) and which aims to facilitate financial transactions. If you don't know that about Ethereum...
It's not just some BTC wannabe, it's a decentralised VM executing code beyond basic transactions.
Ethereum is, like most cryptos, in beta. I presume your company knows this and isn't thinking it's production ready for it's ultimate purposes right now?
Contracts -> automated & secured on-chain
Book-keeping between companies-> automated, secured on-chain
Advertising across the internet can become a paid-for (to the user, not AdSense), non-spammy experience.
Provably fair gambling is enabled and either played at home or installed into casinos where applicable.
The IoT is coming and as devices become connected you'll see more and more automation of transactions to do with those devices and valuable customer data being sent back to device manufacturers.
Distributed web-service platforms are currently built.
Distributed storage & data management centres are being built - database in the back, blockchain on top to serve the user and reduce cost of equipment & labour to business.
ID and biometrics verification? Microsoft and Accenture working on that right now! With Accenture's self-service passport kiosks in Dubai, Heathrow, Schiphol acting as testbeds - these have already resulted in less security personnel at the gates wasting their time staring at passports.

There are tons of things databases are more suitable for, but wherever you want to remove the reliance on trust in another company's word or want to remove as much risk from human fallibility as possibility, use the chain.

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Indeed it’s hard to see major benefits at the moment over plain old transactional systems such as a database.

Removal of a need for trust. Blockchains tend not to be edited without consensus, a database only needs somebody with elevated privileges before things can get messy.

kaymin wrote: »

Well you have yourself convinced. I'll be back after the crash.

You think there'll be a crash that completely eradicates the value of all cryptos?
That will have to be government sponsored & by force.
I'm stunned that - after having read nothing on the subject at all - you think you're more intelligent or in-the-know on the subject than the large swathes of blue chip companies pushing millions into this economy and developing the platform.

Akrasia wrote: »

If you're trading commodities, you have industrial demand, consumer demand and relatively predictable supply and demand curves for the commodity being traded. If the price of a commodity goes way higher than the value of that commodity to industry/consumers then you're in bubble territory. Even gold has industrial and commercial value as a raw material/consumable.
...

Crypto Currencies have zero intrinsic value, the value is entirely based on what other people think it is going to be worth tomorrow. You never see a product or service priced in cryptocurrency, the price is always x$ worth of whatever coin is traded in exchange. The Dollar is the unit of value, the coin is just a unit of exchange which is just a private way of exchanging actual real money. At the end of the day, the same private transaction can happen with BTC, or any other version of the same technology whether it trades at 1 dollar a coin, or a thousand dollars a coin

Your second paragraph negates your first (because yet again, people who haven't read about them at all think every crypto is trying to be a replacement for FIAT) - many coins/tokens have an actual utility and yes, the price rises with demand. Bubbles can form. Pop. Grow back.
Most cryptos are an absolute bag of shíte.
Some are not.
Was the market in a bubble? Of course, the rise has been hilarious and many scams have taken place.
Are cryptos inherently worthless? No, just read about their utilities ffs.

kaymin

rapul wrote: »

stop looking for a fight Kaymin you have just come in here all mightier than thou and no one can be right only you, you clearly are set in your ways which is fair enough but stop giving grief just cause you probably missed the boat mate.

Lol - I wouldn't touch cryptos with a bargepole - that's the advise I gave someone that asked me about them when bitcoins were $3000. Was I wrong - well, I see zero value long-term so my case has yet to be proven.

It was other posters that inferred I didn't know anything about cryptos in the first place - I demonstrated they didn't know a pyramid scheme even when it was staring them in the face.

EagererBeaver

Lads, everyone's opinion is valid. You can't try and shout someone down just because they don't have the same view as you ffs. As for the "what are you even doing here" mentality, you don't have to have skin in the game to find the whole thing fascinating.

Also, see when you've been involved in crypto for a few weeks or months and start calling the likes of Warren Buffet or Jamie Dimon "crusty" or "bitter" or similar, you're not coming across as a hidden genius cypherpunk guru. You come across as an arrogant bellend.

grindle

EagererBeaver wrote: »

...everyone's opinion is valid.

Really?
Everybody has the right to one, not every one is right.

Akrasia

"grindle wrote:

Your second paragraph negates your first (because yet again, people who haven't read about them at all think every crypto is trying to be a replacement for FIAT) - many coins/tokens have an actual utility and yes, the price rises with demand. Bubbles can form. Pop. Grow back.
Most cryptos are an absolute bag of shíte.
Some are not.
Was the market in a bubble? Of course, the rise has been hilarious and many scams have taken place.
Are cryptos inherently worthless? No, just read about their utilities ffs.

You need to separate the utility of block chain as a technology from the value of crypto currency as a store of wealth. Crypto coins can be a unit of exchange but not a stable store of wealth because the utility declines as the price increases. I can see Etherium being turned into a successful financial services technology, but any market for etherium coins would be undercut by the cheaper competitors or even official 'forks' that would flood the market providing the same utility for much lower cost.

Its like investing in a company that floods the market with new stocks without compensating existing shareholders

kaymin

kaymin wrote: »

I wasn't on this thread but I've made my feelings known offline since the start of the current run-up. Yes I could have profited if I had a different view but that doesn't change my opinion of it.

The current slide is just the beginning - one of my first posts on this thread was to advise someone today to sell out since he was at breakeven and any further decreases would eat into his capital. This is not gloating - it is genuine advice. And it's advice I offer to friends that have invested as cryptos are going one direction long-term. I presume most people here are still in profit at current prices anyway. Anyway you do what you want - very few people on this thread are open to reason.

Fair enough, and that is an opinion I can debate - Is this slide just the beginning?

It's just that your posts stood out as deliberately trying to antagonise and wind people up. There are plenty of criticisms, and even meme material, to be legitimately mined from crypto. I didn't think you were doing that.

Anyway, I have no clue what is going to happen next to the market. Sure, this could be just the first decent correction in months, or it could be the burst of the first bubble.

I do know though that there is an absolute haaaape of shítcoins and shady projects out there at the moment which have rocketed to hundreds of millions in market cap in the last month. They got to that point on concepts, theories, dodgy white-papers and hype, rather than actual tech and real-world, problem-solving applications.

I bought some of them like a clueless eejit just because of hype in my first week of trading cryptos. I got rid of them, with profit, as soon as I did a bit of research beyond a 'This coin will moon in 2018' headline.

So far this dip/crash has gotten rid of Bitconnect. (condolences to anyone who lost money there) You want to call something a genuine Ponzi and I'll agree? Bitconnect was it.

I'd be hopeful that if this is a crash, it will be a case of the 'cream always rises to the top'. Where it will filter out the Bitconnects and many of these shít-coins/companies. Where the real businesses with sought-after tech will survive and grow.

I could be wrong, but this dip really shouldn't be a problem for crypto investors who believe in the companies and the tech behind the coins they are holding. It shouldn't be a problem for those who have been planning on holding the coins for longer than a wet week.

You believe that this is the beginning of the end. That's fine and debatable. Whatever happens the coins' value, I honestly can't say, but quite a few of these companies and their tech are here to stay IMO.

Maybe I should be looking to invest in the companies themselves rather than their coins in that case, but I don't know how to do that right now.

EagererBeaver

grindle wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

...everyone's opinion is valid.

Really?
Everybody has the right to one, not every one is right.

For now, yes. Nobody has any facts to back anything up with. Everything is speculation at this stage.

Shouting someone down because you disagree with them is moronic.

Pussyhands

What a massacre. I'm down 55% on my investment. I've told myself I've lost the money now so I'll leave it in. At this moment in time I am feeling like an idiot for believing the hype. I was the dumb money people said would enter the market. The smart money cashed out.

I hope it'll come back but not feeling great.

rapul

Pussyhands wrote: »

What a massacre. I'm down 55% on my investment. I've told myself I've lost the money now so I'll leave it in. At this moment in time I am feeling like an idiot for believing the hype. I was the dumb money people said would enter the market. The smart money cashed out.

I hope it'll come back but not feeling great.

im sorry for your loss mate, hold on in there it will get better. talk to someone about this if your feeling down, pm myself even

grindle

EagererBeaver wrote: »

For now, yes. Nobody has any facts to back anything up with. Everything is speculation at this stage.

Shouting someone down because you disagree with them is moronic.

I'm not shouting anybody down - I'm providing detail in my posts and there are facts about projects available - not about prices, that's truly pie in the sky stuff, but info about the actual projects - while they're just reiterating "pyramid pyramid pyramid" without researching anything at all about what they're saying or even looking up the definition of the term.
Which I'll leave here in case they scan the thread again

A pyramid scheme (commonly known as pyramid scams) is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services.

Please, kaymin, please... commit to memory.

Akrasia wrote: »

You need to separate the utility of block chain as a technology from the value of crypto currency as a store of wealth. Crypto coins can be a unit of exchange but not a stable store of wealth because the utility declines as the price increases. I can see Etherium being turned into a successful financial services technology, but any market for etherium coins would be undercut by the cheaper competitors or even official 'forks' that would flood the market providing the same utility for much lower cost.

Its like investing in a company that floods the market with new stocks without compensating existing shareholders

You don't need a whole one to transact so the utility doesn't decline with price & once Raiden, Plasma & sharding are implemented the fees will be miniscule... and the coin has 18 decimal places - the idea that ETH's cap will reach such heights that the value of that last decimal will outgrow usefulness in the economy is unrealistic as it would need to go past hundreds of quadrillions of dollars.
I'm not that bullish.
In any case, cheaper competitors are going to have to out-compete the ETH devs - good luck to them! This is what Cardano and EOS want to do.
Cardano maybe has a chance (yet is phenomenally overvalued)
EOS is helmed by a guy who typically drops his projects when bored, couldn't trust it.
If they choose to privately fork they don't get the updates or the most important part - security. Their funds and contracts are best secured on a massively distributed and verified ledger that has the most eyes on the code.

kaymin

Deleted User wrote: »

You believe that this is the beginning of the end. That's fine and debatable. Whatever happens the coins' value, I honestly can't say, but quite a few of these companies and their tech are here to stay IMO.

Maybe I should be looking to invest in the companies themselves rather than their coins in that case, but I don't know how to do that right now.

Just to clarify - I don't know whether this dip is the beginning of the end. I know the vested interests will be battling to keep the prices high. Regardless, I have a strong conviction where it will be in the long-run - trying to predict when the calamitous fall will occur is a fools game. Usually its retail investors left holding the bag.

cravings

i put money in in early june.. even split in euros between bitcoin and ethereum. for the next couple of months.. portfolio value went down and down.. was worth 50% of what i put in after a couple of months. slowly, bitcoin came back up to what i bought it for. and then went up and up and up. ethereum only broke even for me in november or something. and has then gone up and up too. now, looking at the yearly chart, you can barely see where they halved in value during the summer.

but yeah for a while there i was shaking my head and wondering what have i done.. but in my case, holding worked out. i'm not at this long. but things happen fast. never know what's next.

no one wants to lose what they've put in, but hopefully you didn't put in money that will get you in trouble if you lose it.

august12

Pussyhands wrote:

What a massacre. I'm down 55% on my investment. I've told myself I've lost the money now so I'll leave it in. At this moment in time I am feeling like an idiot for believing the hype. I was the dumb money people said would enter the market. The smart money cashed out.

Take pleasure in knowing a lot of people are in the same boat as you, a lot of us are sinking with you, especially the newbie investors, me included, I am holding through all this madness, if I come out the other side, I think I will begin to cash out until I have recovered my initial investment and then start trading on my profits, hopefully I will last that long.

Autochange

kaymin wrote: »

Fair enough if you want to ridicule me for expressing an opinion but you should heed the advice of Warren Buffet, one of the best investors that ever lived:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/10/buffett-says-cyrptocurrencies-will-almost-certainly-end-badly.html

Well, Warren Buffet doesn't understand crypto currencies - he even admitted he doesn't understand it. That's just his modesty talking.

Can you not go onto the Bank of Ireland or AIB forums and spread your wisdom there. This page is for those interested in crypto currency not those you want to criticize everything about it.

kaymin

Autochange wrote: »

Can you not go onto the Bank of Ireland or AIB forums and spread your wisdom there. This page is for those interested in crypto currency not those you want to criticize everything about it.

Some on this thread are interested in it being more than an echo chamber, so no I won't.

EagererBeaver

Autochange wrote: »

kaymin wrote: »

Fair enough if you want to ridicule me for expressing an opinion but you should heed the advice of Warren Buffet, one of the best investors that ever lived:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/10/buffett-says-cyrptocurrencies-will-almost-certainly-end-badly.html

Well, Warren Buffet doesn't understand crypto currencies - he even admitted he doesn't understand it. That's just his modesty talking.

Can you not go onto the Bank of Ireland or AIB forums and spread your wisdom there. This page is for those interested in crypto currency not those you want to criticize everything about it.

This is the type of arrogant attitude that pisses me off. To be interested in crypto you don't have to be convinced of its future success.

Personally, I'd much prefer to hear all opinions when it comes to something I invest in rather than just a shower of spanners shouting "moon" and "lambo" all the time. Wouldn't you?

Sparks43

Btc has came back to just under 11k. Maybe just maybe it might stabilise

Still squeaky bum time though

Akrasia

Pussyhands wrote: »

What a massacre. I'm down 55% on my investment. I've told myself I've lost the money now so I'll leave it in. At this moment in time I am feeling like an idiot for believing the hype. I was the dumb money people said would enter the market. The smart money cashed out.

I hope it'll come back but not feeling great.

Sunk cost fallacy. You should only hold the coins if you think the price will recover, otherwise you should cash them in. You could always buy back in when you think they have reached a fair value and might recover your losses that way

grindle

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Personally, I'd much prefer to hear all opinions when it comes to something I invest in rather than just a shower of spanners shouting "moon" and "lambo" all the time. Wouldn't you?

I think we'd all appreciate a sceptic's thoughts - kaymin hasn't provided any.
If we're taking notes, that's not noteworthy.

Where's the dissenting discussion in "I think X."

"Can you outline the reason you think X?"

"Nah. Just thinking it is enough for me, don't want to read."

lostboy75

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Personally, I'd much prefer to hear all opinions when it comes to something I invest in rather than just a shower of spanners shouting "moon" and "lambo" all the time. Wouldn't you?

I agree, I would welcome that aspect as well. but saying pyramid, pyramid pyramid, over and over again isn't much of an opinion. And doesn't add much to the conversation.

kaymin

lostboy75 wrote: »

I agree, I would welcome that aspect as well. but saying pyramid, pyramid pyramid, over and over again isn't much of an opinion. And doesn't add much to the conversation.

Ultimately the value of anything is the present value of the future cash flows it will generate. Companies and economies generate underlying positive cash flows - this is what supports the value of a company and an economy's currency. Crypto currencies generate no underlying cash flows and therefore have zero value.