Church and School

Steviesol

Hi,

Kids are in primary school, not baptised, not religious, the school intend on going to local church next week, and should you not want your kids to go you need as parents to mind them during the mass. I wonder has anyone else experience with this. Surely it is up to the school to mind the kids regardless of their religious beliefs.

Thanks in advance.

bee06

Depends on the school. If it’s one with a religious ethos then fair enough. You are choosing for them to not participate in a school activity. If it’s an Educate Together (which I assume it’s not) then it would be ridiculous.

Ficheall

I'm trying to remember what happened to kids in our school who didn't come on the school tour to the farm, or the box-making factory, or whatever.. Hmm..

dotsman

bee06 wrote: »

If it’s one with a religious ethos then fair enough.

That's only "fair enough" if they don't receive state funding and pay huge reparations for the countless children they have destroyed since the foundation of the state.

Ten of Swords

Well I guess any parents that are against 'religious indoctrination' by schools now have a chance to show the school that they are willing to take action to back up their stance by minding their child during this field trip.

My money would be on "can't be arsed - let them go to the mass" every time.

evolving_doors

Steviesol wrote: »

Hi,

Kids are in primary school, not baptised, not religious, the school intend on going to local church next week, and should you not want your kids to go you need as parents to mind them during the mass. I wonder has anyone else experience with this. Surely it is up to the school to mind the kids regardless of their religious beliefs.

Thanks in advance.

There's a lot of ambiguity in this presentation at the mo.

Maybe clear up before pot shots begin.

Is the church visit DURING school hours?

Can the kid go but not participate in the ceremony practice .... But still be under the supervision of the teacher?

Are the school refusing to let your child go if they're not of the school religion?

But yes... I'd agree if it's DURING school hours then they have a duty of care. Like if there were some kids playing a match DURING school hours do the other kids have to go home?

But during religious ceremonies in our school everyone is expected to attend. Fine if students aren't participating but as long as they don't mess there's no big deal... But the school don't want to set a precedent by letting them abstain themselves to a supervised room, half the kids would end up not going just for the sake of being different/rebelling etc.
In the end kids of different religions or none might just stay home that day. Not possible for everyone though.

McTigs

Ficheall wrote: »

I'm trying to remember what happened to kids in our school who didn't come on the school tour to the farm, or the box-making factory, or whatever.. Hmm..

ludacris analogy......you are comparing farming and box making with religious indoctrination? Seriously?

SEPT 23 1989

Sure what harm would it do them

Ipso

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Sure what harm would it do them

What harm would it do to have the parents take their own children at the weekend?

freshpopcorn

I know lots of school's who have no issue with unbaptised kids/etc/colouring in during religion. However when the school has a Christmas mass/etc on in the local church and the parents don't want to them to attend the only option generally is for the kids to be brought home. The other teachers/sna's are generally busy minding their own class!

Steviesol

Yes they can go to the church if they like . It is during school hours. I am just curious how they can force parents to come and mind the kids if parents don't want them to go to church.

eviltwin

Steviesol wrote: »

Yes they can go to the church if they like . It is during school hours. I am just curious how they can force parents to come and mind the kids if parents don't want them to go to church.

They probably don't have staff available to mind them.

wirelessdude01

Steviesol wrote:

Yes they can go to the church if they like . It is during school hours. I am just curious how they can force parents to come and mind the kids if parents don't want them to go to church.

Ever think that maybe the school doesn't have the resources to mind kids while the rest are gone off site?

byhookorbycrook

Schools don't have "spare" staff to stay in school -and due to child protection issues, it would mean 2 teachers have to stay with the children. In most cases, parents choose to let the child go to the rehershals but not participate.

freshpopcorn

Steviesol wrote: »

Yes they can go to the church if they like . It is during school hours. I am just curious how they can force parents to come and mind the kids if parents don't want them to go to church.

I think part of school might be you've to attend school activities at times. If you could opt out of activities because a parent doesn't want a child to attend The school would never do anything.

Oldtree

Steviesol wrote: »

Hi,

Kids are in primary school, not baptised, not religious, the school intend on going to local church next week, and should you not want your kids to go you need as parents to mind them during the mass. I wonder has anyone else experience with this. Surely it is up to the school to mind the kids regardless of their religious beliefs.

Thanks in advance.

Is the whole school going?

If not they shouldn't have a problem with your kids staying behind in the school in another class.

If the whole school is going, then unless they are prepared to leave a teacher behind to supervise you will may well have to do the supervision.

My kids school was always accommadating and considerate, and this was never an issue.

Steviesol

Yes the whole school are going

kenmc

School shouldn't be wasting valuable teaching hours promoting bloody fantasy sky fairies. If parents want to fill the kids heads with nonsense do so in their own time.

Zebra3

I thought the idea of schools was to educate children not fill their heads with utter nonsense.

evolving_doors

Steviesol wrote: »

Yes they can go to the church if they like . It is during school hours. I am just curious how they can force parents to come and mind the kids if parents don't want them to go to church.

So you don't want then to go to the church.
Ok.... so what do you want the school to do with them?
When your kids started school first what did the school tell you would happen? Did you ask?

gifted

evolving_doors wrote: »

So you don't want then to go to the church.
Ok.... so what do you want the school to do with them?
When your kids started school first what did the school tell you would happen? Did you ask?

Mind them of course...that's what schools are there for according to the OP ...duh...

Ficheall

McTigs wrote: »

ludacris analogy......you are comparing farming and box making with religious indoctrination? Seriously?

I was wondering what happened children who couldn't go on the trips for whatever reason - that is, the children who weren't going where the teacher was going. I'm sure it happened, but I can't remember. I see here the whole school is going, so it's probably more complicated.

We did have masses in school that everyone attended. I, and most of the other students, went along, behaved, and were bored for an hour, and managed not to come out with a burning desire to go to mass again.
Doesn't seem to have done much harm. The ability to sit quietly and politely listen to whatever ****e someone is spouting is a valuable life skill.

evolving_doors

gifted wrote: »

Mind them of course...that's what schools are there for according to the OP ...duh...

Duh!
Whole school activity takes precedence... maintaining ethos is top trumps too I'm afraid!

If all the school went to Dublin zoo or farm and the OP had a conscientious objection to caged animals or pro vegan.... should they expect the school to cancel... or leave a teacher behind to supervise?

Not saying I agree but it's just the way it is.
But hey if the parent kicks up a fuss then maybe the school might back down.

But legally... nope.

The_Valeyard

I should play a drinking game with this thread, usual posters out already


1 shot, use of word 'indoctrination'

2 swigs of beer use of words sky fairy

Steviesol

evolving_doors wrote: »

So you don't want then to go to the church.
Ok.... so what do you want the school to do with them?
When your kids started school first what did the school tell you would happen? Did you ask?

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

Ficheall

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

Did they not offer you the option of letting your kids go with them?

evolving_doors

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

You don't have to.
Let yer kids observe from an anthropological point of view.

Akrasia

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Ever think that maybe the school doesn't have the resources to mind kids while the rest are gone off site?

ever think that the school should be educating children instead of performing religious rituals?
School is for learning, if the parents want their kids to be religious, the churches are open after school and at weekends.

bee06

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

Did you ask what would happen when the rest of the kids were doing their communion and confirmation prep? I would assume it’s going to be a huge issue at that stage.

Fr_Dougal

Parents being asked to mind their own kids...whatever next...

Akrasia

evolving_doors wrote: »

You don't have to.
Let yer kids observe from an anthropological point of view.

They can just sit there looking at the stations of the cross, watching a series of pictures of a half naked man getting tortured and crucified.

I let my 8 year old kid watch Alien and my wife thought it was too violent, but every church has scenes of torture and execution displayed on all 4 walls.

Akrasia

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Parents being asked to mind their own kids...whatever next...

Parents being asked to pass on their own religious values to their kids instead of getting schools to do it during school time?

Steviesol

I seem to have upset some people

MadDog76

Schools aren't child-minding services .......... the kids aren't being forced to go to Mass and we still have complainers, some people are never happy ffs!

freshpopcorn

My advice is be careful how you deal with this matter with the school and be careful not to make a massive fuss out of it. You don't want to become known as the awkward parent. For yourself or your child.

MadDog76

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

Because they're your kids!

farmerwifelet

If you send your children to a Catholic school then yes you should expect Catholic teaching to happen there and yes it involves trips to the local church. If the school doesn't have the resources to mind your children back at the school during said trips then either let the children go and observe or mind them yourself its that easy.

I think it is funny that people are shocked that Catholic schools have a Catholic ethos and that this might involve a trip to the church. If I sent my child to a Jewish school then i would presume a trip to a synagogue would probably happen at some stage.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I remember there were about 3 J Witnesses in our school, they stayed in the office with the secretary.

The COI and Methodist students would attend. The school mass's were ecumenical services, with clergy from their churches participating. It was nice, just a celebration of the school and its students. I wasn't anyone religious at the time but still always enjoyed them.

byhookorbycrook

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

Sooooooo, you want the school to babysit- your objection seems a lot less valid now.

Estrellita

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't remember ever discussing Christmas Mass with the school. I did let them know we are a non religious family. Ideally I would like the school to mind them and take care of them until school is over. I don't see why I should have to come and take them out for an hour.

The school is not a child minding service. If you've put your child or children into a Catholic school, then Catholic education is part of the curriculum. While non-religious families are welcome to apply for places in a Catholic school, it doesn't mean the school is responsible for minding children that come from families that do not wish to partake in the religious activities.

If children attend an educate together then they are made aware of other religions, but are asked to make arrangements in their own time to practice their own faith if they have one. This seems to be more in line with your own beliefs, or lack of in this case.

Your attitude towards the school is very off colour in my view. Your children are not the schools problem during religious classes or practices if you've chosen to enroll them in a school that follows a particular faith.

I'm not open to the discussion about why religion shouldn't be practiced in schools. The solution to that is more educate together schools as far as I'm concerned. None of which is my problem or concern.

You never answered another posters question about their school, is it an educate together? Why do you feel you're not responsible for your children during the religious parts of the curriculum?

byhookorbycrook

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I remember there were about 3 J Witnesses in our school, they stayed in the office with the secretary.

The COI and Methodist students would attend. The school mass's were ecumenical services, with clergy from their churches participating. It was nice, just a celebration of the school and its students. I wasn't anyone religious at the time but still always enjoyed them.

With child protection laws, you need two adults and in fairness to the secretary in any school, they have enough to be doing, bar baby sitting.

Candamir

MadDog76 wrote: »

Schools aren't child-minding services .......... the kids aren't being forced to go to Mass and we still have complainers, some people are never happy ffs!

Schools are educational services however. If only they were allowed to concentrate their resources on education. Ffs.

Ficheall

Candamir wrote: »

Schools are educational services however. If only they were allowed to concentrate their resources on education. Ffs.

How do you define education, then?

byhookorbycrook

Candamir wrote: »

Schools are educational services however. If only they were allowed to concentrate their resources on education. Ffs.

Schools are not "services."

MadDog76

Candamir wrote: »

Schools are educational services however. If only they were allowed to concentrate their resources on education. Ffs.

Catholic schools have a Catholic Ethos with the buildings and/or land owned by the Catholic Church which they donate to the State free of charge yet they allow (and they aren't obliged legally or morally to allow) non-religious children/families enroll in their Catholic school without any obligation whatsoever to participate in anything associated with religion and what do they ask in return?
For parents to mind their own children when the need arises ...........

splinter65

Steviesol wrote: »

Hi,

Kids are in primary school, not baptised, not religious, the school intend on going to local church next week, and should you not want your kids to go you need as parents to mind them during the mass. I wonder has anyone else experience with this. Surely it is up to the school to mind the kids regardless of their religious beliefs.

Thanks in advance.

If you don’t want your child to participate in a school activity then you have to take them away while the activity is ongoing.
What else would you expect?

Candamir

Ficheall wrote: »

How do you define education, then?

Ah here. I’m not going to start defining education! FWIW, I absolutely think religion should be taught in schools. But all religions, or at least the major world religions, as they are at second level. What goes on st primary school is not religious education in that sense.

Btw, I’m speaking as a parent who’s kids went to a non denominational school for a time, and who prepared them for first holy communion by taking them to church and Sunday school outside of school time.

Candamir

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Schools are not "services."

I was mirroring the language in the post I quoted.I thought that would be obvious. Sorry I should have pointed that out to make it clearer for you.

(Although Goal no.3 of the DE&S is to “help those providing education services to continually improve”, so maybe they do consider schools as service providers)

splinter65

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I should play a drinking game with this thread, usual posters out already


1 shot, use of word 'indoctrination'

2 swigs of beer use of words sky fairy

Down a pint in one gulp, spaghetti monster in the sky

byhookorbycrook

Candamir wrote: »

Ah here. I’m not going to start defining education! FWIW, I absolutely think religion should be taught in schools. But all religions, or at least the major world religions, as they are at second level. What goes on st primary school is not religious education in that sense.

Btw, I’m speaking as a parent who’s kids went to a non denominational school for a time, and who prepared them for first holy communion by taking them to church and Sunday school outside of school time.

There are no non-denom primary schools in Ireland. ET and many Gaelscoileanna are multi-denom.

Candamir

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There are no non-denom primary schools in Ireland. ET and many Gaelscoileanna are multi-denom.

Yes I’m aware of that. It wasn’t in Ireland. It as in another predominantly Catholic country.