Church and School

evolving_doors

Steviesol wrote: »

I seem to have upset some people

ceadaoin.

Steviesol wrote: »

Hi,

Kids are in primary school, not baptised, not religious, the school intend on going to local church next week, and should you not want your kids to go you need as parents to mind them during the mass. I wonder has anyone else experience with this. Surely it is up to the school to mind the kids regardless of their religious beliefs.

Thanks in advance.

A school isn't a childminding service. If you don't want your child to participate in a particular trip then it's up to you to take care of them.

My daughter goes to a small school and there isnt a bus for field trips. I don't tell the teacher it's up to them to sort out transport for my child. I drive her myself and go on the trip and don't complain about it! It's called taking responsibility for your children

evolving_doors

ceadaoin. wrote: »

A school isn't a childminding service. If you don't want your child to participate in a particular trip then it's up to you to take care of them.

My daughter goes to a small school and there isnt a bus for field trips. I don't tell the teacher it's up to them to sort out transport for my child. I drive her myself and go on the trip and don't complain about it! It's called taking responsibility for your children

I suppose the op hadn't thought about the issues until now. And in fairness most parents just trey to get through the day first before borrowing worries from the future.

We know the schools are state funded.
We know the curriculum is set by the state in the interests of all citizens.
.... But yet there's a trade off.
Educate our citizens and we'll provide you with souls.
Can the citizens choose where to be educated?. Not always.

So can/should the op expect to have a totally secular education for their child?
Yes... But as long as the child blocks their ears and averts their gaze during the religious ceremonies they'll get it.
Does that time spent on religion take away from other subjects?

Mrs OBumble

OP, what would you do if you vegetarian, and the school was going on a visit to a dairy farm?

Tell the kids to not believe the stories about the benefits of drinking cows milk? Or occupy your kids some other way that day yourself?

Akrasia

Ficheall wrote: »

How do you define education, then?

Education is a lot of things. Preparation for religious ceremonies it is not.

Even the catholic church considers this faith formation rather than education. And even if the rc church are patrons of a school, the state pays for the education of each child. The state shouldn't be paying for faith formation

Btw, the RC church are patrons of lots of schools without ever having owned the land or buildings, for example, the new 6 million euro Ennis National school had a 300k contribution from the board of management. So they get given a 6 million euro asset for 300k, and most of that money was fundraised by the community, meanwhile, the old school is being sold for development for an awful lot more than the contribution they made to the cost of the new school

Steviesol

Okay, I only asked if anyone had any experience with this and schools. To be perfectly honest I am quite scared of the Catholic Church.

My query was can the school carry on with this business of, "it's the church or nothing". I thought we had moved on from that, and hopefully we will.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Steviesol wrote: »

Okay, I only asked if anyone had any experience with this and schools. To be perfectly honest I am quite scared of the Catholic Church.

My query was can the school carry on with this business of, "it's the church or nothing". I thought we had moved on from that, and hopefully we will.

Who, specifically, do you expect to be available to mind your child?

Steviesol

Alice Eager Wiretap wrote: »

Who, specifically, do you expect to be available to mind your child?

The School ? That's what they get paid for

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Steviesol wrote: »

The School ? That's what they get paid for

I ask who specifically? The 'school' is elsewhere and engaged in another activity. Who has the gift of bi-location ?
They are not paid to give one to one care for your child.

Steviesol

Alice Eager Wiretap wrote: »

I ask who specifically? The 'school' is elsewhere and engaged in another activity. Who has the gift of bi-location ?
They are not paid to give one to one care for your child.

I don't need to know the intircitities as to how the school manage man power.

I send my kids to school in good faith, might not be their faith but none the less, I feel they should do what they are paid for.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't need to know the intircitities as to how the school manage man power.

I send my kids to school in good faith, might not be their faith but none the less, I feel they should do what they are paid for.

They will if you send you child along with the rest of the school.

Your sense of entitlement has grown from the OP.

Ficheall

Steviesol wrote: »

To be perfectly honest I am quite scared of the Catholic Church.

Thank god (no pun intended) this opportunity to complain about it arose then, eh?

Steviesol

Ficheall wrote: »

Thank god (no pun intended) this opportunity to complain about it arose then, eh?

This is not a complaint, it is a query.

splinter65

Steviesol wrote: »

The School ? That's what they get paid for

Stevie your gas. If the school were going to the Zoo and you as a family are firmly anti-animal captivity then your kids wouldn’t be going.
would you be demanding that some staff are assigned to mind your children in the school?

kenmc

Alice Eager Wiretap wrote: »

They will if you send you child along with the rest of the school.

Your sense of entitlement has grown from the OP.

Alternative scenario so. Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist family living somewhere with no access to a multi-denom school or one of their faith end up with no option but a catholic school. Parents with work commitments can't take the kids home while the rest of the school goes to the catholic church for some school mass or whatever, as they (reasonably) expect their kids to be in school and educated during school term and hours. What's the solution?

jimmycrackcorm

farmerwifelet wrote:

I think it is funny that people are shocked that Catholic schools have a Catholic ethos and that this might involve a trip to the church. If I sent my child to a Jewish school then i would presume a trip to a synagogue would probably happen at some stage.

Most of us Irish grew up in the Catholism of mass, rosaries etc and yet it's dying these days.

Which makes me think it's bizarre how parents these days are worked up about their kids having any exposure to it.

end of the road

Estrellita wrote: »

The school is not a child minding service. If you've put your child or children into a Catholic school, then Catholic education is part of the curriculum. While non-religious families are welcome to apply for places in a Catholic school, it doesn't mean the school is responsible for minding children that come from families that do not wish to partake in the religious activities.

If children attend an educate together then they are made aware of other religions, but are asked to make arrangements in their own time to practice their own faith if they have one. This seems to be more in line with your own beliefs, or lack of in this case.

Your attitude towards the school is very off colour in my view. Your children are not the schools problem during religious classes or practices if you've chosen to enroll them in a school that follows a particular faith.

I'm not open to the discussion about why religion shouldn't be practiced in schools. The solution to that is more educate together schools as far as I'm concerned. None of which is my problem or concern.

You never answered another posters question about their school, is it an educate together? Why do you feel you're not responsible for your children during the religious parts of the curriculum?

because ultimately he's not. if the child is on school property then they are the responsibility of the school. the school cannot just abdecate from their responsibility because he isn't religious. if needs be, bring the child to the church and allow them to sit at the back. otherwise one of the teachers can mind the child.

splinter65

kenmc wrote: »

Alternative scenario so. Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist family living somewhere with no access to a multi-denom school or one of their faith end up with no option but a catholic school. Parents with work commitments can't take the kids home while the rest of the school goes to the catholic church for some school mass or whatever, as they (reasonably) expect their kids to be in school and educated during school term and hours. What's the solution?

Parents opt not to have their children participate in a school activity so the parents make arrangements to have the children taken away and minded while the activity is ongoing.
This has been suggested several times in this thread.
It happens every day of the week.

splinter65

end of the road wrote: »

because ultimately he's not. if the child is on school property then they are the responsibility of the school. the school cannot just abdecate from their responsibility because he isn't religious. if needs be, bring the child to the church and allow them to sit at the back. otherwise one of the teachers can mind the child.

So if the school are on a cultural trip to the synagogue and the Muslim children aren’t going the school have to hire someone to watch them?

KatW4

I am a primary school teacher and this happens all of the time.

I'm speaking from my experience so maybe not every teacher/school will be the same. If you don't want your child to participate, that's fine. While we are in school they can complete unfinished work/read a book/do a jigsaw etc... while we complete RE lessons.

If our year group are leaving the premises for Carol singing/mass/religious activities. The children can join another year group and spend the time there.

However, if the whole school are leaving to participate in a religious activity, more often than not, we have to ask the parents to keep them at home. The children are more than welcome to join us and sit quietly and not participate. However, if you don't want your child to go with the rest of the school, the only other option is for you to keep your child at home. There are no available adults to look after your child in the school..

The class teacher must go with the class. In the younger classes, there needs to be an adult for every 6 children. So that's a minimum of 3 adults per class. The resource teachers and SNA's have to accompany the classes on the trip.(Sometimes we need to ask parents to join us as we don't have enough adults at that). That leaves no one behind to look after children not allowed to participate.

As a parent, you are the one deciding your child will not take part in a whole school activity so it is up to you to look after them during that time.

end of the road

KatW4 wrote: »

As a parent, you are the one deciding your child will not take part in a whole school activity so it is up to you to look after them during that time.

if it's during school time, then it's the school's issue, as they are on education time, in school. therefore they are the school's problem. unless they are being home schooled, one is legally obligated to send their children to a place of education and that place of education is responsible for them during the times of educating.
this is why we need to remove sky fairies from our schools, to insure inclusivity, and activities accessible to all.

Mrs OBumble

kenmc wrote: »

Alternative scenario so. Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist family living somewhere with no access to a multi-denom school or one of their faith end up with no option but a catholic school. Parents with work commitments can't take the kids home while the rest of the school goes to the catholic church for some school mass or whatever, as they (reasonably) expect their kids to be in school and educated during school term and hours. What's the solution?

Ironically, parents from other faith traditions are likely to be happy for their child to go along and respectfully observe but not participate. And they will have educated their child well enough about the family's belief systems that this won't be a problem for the kid.

The parents who have a problem are usually the proselytising atheists, whose NotGod-given-mission is to convince everyone else that all religion is bunk.

I predict a lot of their kids will turn religious as teens, just to rebel

Lucy8080

Give ur kid purmissiun to go on the hop o.p. My parunts felt that our langwag wus stolen frum us by the Sassanachs and encurraaggeed me to hop off during Engerlandush lessons.

Didunt have any detrummentalist effekt on me.

evolving_doors

Steviesol wrote: »

I don't need to know the intircitities as to how the school manage man power.

I send my kids to school in good faith, might not be their faith but none the less, I feel they should do what they are paid for.

They are paid to provide religious instruction too!

kenmc

evolving_doors wrote: »

They are paid to provide religious instruction too!

And that's the crux of the problem.

Most of them indoctrinate. Only a very small percentage teach religion.

splinter65

end of the road wrote: »

if it's during school time, then it's the school's issue, as they are on education time, in school. therefore they are the school's problem. unless they are being home schooled, one is legally obligated to send their children to a place of education and that place of education is responsible for them during the times of educating.
this is why we need to remove sky fairies from our schools, to insure inclusivity, and activities accessible to all.

You’ve just been told by a teacher what the situation is but here you are arguing with facts as usual and ignoring any straight questions put to you earlier in the thread because those questions don’t suit you.

The_Valeyard

kenmc wrote: »

And that's the crux of the problem.

Most of them indoctrinate. Only a very small percentage teach religion.

Jes, if i was thinking id be fairly piss drunk at the usual INDOCTRINATION SKY FAIRY NONSENSE comments.

Same comments, same posters, slightly different thread.

God bless you all for you're hard work.

Akrasia

Alice Eager Wiretap wrote: »

Who, specifically, do you expect to be available to mind your child?

Schools are perfectly capable of supervising entire classrooms of children if a teacher calls in sick or has in service training. They should be able to accommodate non religious children within the school

server down

kenmc wrote: »

School shouldn't be wasting valuable teaching hours promoting bloody fantasy sky fairies. If parents want to fill the kids heads with nonsense do so in their own time.

Catholic school, innit.

kenmc

server down wrote: »

Catholic school, innit.

Unfortunately, in 90+ % of cases, yes. That's the whole problem. It should be just "school", not "catholic school", "muslim school", "methodist school" etc.

tringle

OP, your children are your responsibility 24/7 regardless of who else they are with and you need to be able to provide care for them even when they are in school.
I understand that you discussed the religion issue at the time of enrolement and if they were going to the church every day then it would be an issue...but its one hour in the year, surely that's manageable for them. I don't believe in religion but had no problems with my children seeing it and attending churches for family or school occasions. If invited to a wedding would you refuse to attend a church service.
Either let them go to the church with the school or look after them, its not the schools responsibility to provide childcare.

Start your own tradition on that day.

The_Valeyard

Who is deleting comments?

kenmc

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Who is deleting comments?

Mine also, regarding how more learning might have resulted in better grammar.

The_Valeyard

kenmc wrote: »

Mine also, regarding how more learning might have resulted in better grammar.

And mine, how no one likes or needs a grammar nazi.

kenmc

The_Valeyard wrote: »

And mine, how no one likes or needs a grammar nazi.

Funnily enough, more facts + less fiction = less need for grammar Nazism!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Akrasia wrote: »

Schools are perfectly capable of supervising entire classrooms of children if a teacher calls in sick or has in service training. They should be able to accommodate non religious children within the school

That is a pointless attempt at a comparison. Nothing like the OP's situation at all.

He wants one child looked after in an empty school.

One eyed Jack

kenmc wrote: »

Funnily enough, more facts + less fiction = less need for grammar Nazism!

Less need for grammar nazism?

You appear to be taking the utilitarian approach to education, in which case you should probably steer clear of Shakespeare, and just about every work of art ever created.

Meanwhile, for those such as myself who do not share your perspective on education, you're going to have to make a more compelling argument than your ability to point out other peoples spelling and grammar errors.

robbiezero

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Most of us Irish grew up in the Catholism of mass, rosaries etc and yet it's dying these days.

Which makes me think it's bizarre how parents these days are worked up about their kids having any exposure to it.

Same. me, all of my friends all would have been educated up until college in a Catholic school. None of us in any way religious these days.

Its indoctrination in the way that Santa Claus is.

Candamir

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Meanwhile, for those such as myself who do not share your perspective on education, you're going to have to make a more compelling argument than your ability to point out other peoples spelling and grammar errors.

Put it this way - if schools were spending 2 1/2 hours a week teaching homeopathy as part of the science syllabus, I think most right minded people would have a problem with that.
That time would be better spent educating children on such things as grammar, or maths or science.

My youngest is in Communion class this year. Most of the parents at the enrolment mass are rarely in church (except for ‘social’ events like weddings, christenings etc, and maybe Christmas Day mass). Most of them don’t practice their religion, and if they were honest with themselves, they support the incredible amount of time ‘wasted’ in school on sacrament preparation because it’s too much hassle to do it out of school in their own time. Our kids spend little enough time in primary school as it is. That time should be spent teaching core subjects, and teaching of individual beliefs should be left to the parents and faith groups. While the vast majority of schools in this country are faith schools, and parents, in practice, often have no choice but to send their kids to a faith school, the status quo will continue.

server down

Candamir wrote: »

Put it this way - if schools were spending 2 1/2 hours a week teaching homeopathy as part of the science syllabus, I think most right minded people would have a problem with that.
That time would be better spent educating children on such things as grammar, or maths or science.

My youngest is in Communion class this year. Most of the parents at the enrolment mass are rarely in church (except for ‘social’ events like weddings, christenings etc, and maybe Christmas Day mass). Most of them don’t practice their religion, and if they were honest with themselves, they support the incredible amount of time ‘wasted’ in school on sacrament preparation because it’s too much hassle to do it out of school in their own time. Our kids spend little enough time in primary school as it is. That time should be spent teaching core subjects, and teaching of individual beliefs should be left to the parents and faith groups. While the vast majority of schools in this country are faith schools, and parents, in practice, often have no choice but to send their kids to a faith school, the status quo will continue.

I generally don’t agree with new atheists, a few trips to a church or a Christmas play is alright, but communion is a massive time sink.

splinter65

server down wrote: »

I generally don’t agree with new atheists, a few trips to a church or a Christmas play is alright, but communion is a massive time sink.

Definitely a trip to the church for a carol service is very magical for small kids especially and it seems very churlish to refuse.
Telling on this thread that questions about other circumstances in which children are withheld from school activities are studiously ignored.

topper75

Zebra3 wrote: »

I thought the idea of schools was to educate children not fill their heads with utter nonsense.

Too true.

I high-tailed it out of there when I was 13 and they started getting me to do sums with letters of the alphabet. Never looked back.

Estrellita

end of the road wrote: »

because ultimately he's not. if the child is on school property then they are the responsibility of the school. the school cannot just abdecate from their responsibility because he isn't religious.

More cop out BS. If your child is in a Catholic school, ask to be notified of upcoming events so they can be excluded without dumping the responsibility on the school to mind your child. Then you've enough notice to take the time off your work or other engagements to mind him or her. Schools are not creches.

Some people only see things their own way, or the way it suits them best. If a child had some sort of accident on school property, then by all means point the finger of responsibility. Removal of a child from Catholic practices within a Catholic school is a preference, and not the schools problem.

if needs be, bring the child to the church and allow them to sit at the back. otherwise one of the teachers can mind the child.

Not all parents would want that option either. Some might not want their child to set foot in a church.

end of the road

splinter65 wrote: »

You’ve just been told by a teacher what the situation is but here you are arguing with facts as usual and ignoring any straight questions put to you earlier in the thread because those questions don’t suit you.

i haven't argued with facts. i have argued against the idea that the school can abdecate from it's responsibility to non-religious children on school time. parents are legally obligated to send their children to school unless they are home schooling them. yet because those children are non-religious, the parents are expected to take them out of school because the rest of the school is going on a non-educational but religious related activity, which is non-essential and which is related to a religion most don't actually believe in anyway.
so these children are losing time where they could be learning something useful. i'm sorry but that is not exceptible to me. yes granted it will never effect me, not having children and no plans to do so, but regardless it's still wrong as far as i'm concerned and children shouldn't be losing out because of religion, especially when belief in a religion is in a small minority but is used by a majority for convenience reasons.

end of the road

Estrellita wrote: »

More cop out BS. If your child is in a Catholic school, ask to be notified of upcoming events so they can be excluded without dumping the responsibility on the school to mind your child. Then you've enough notice to take the time off your work or other engagements to mind him or her. Schools are not creches.

Some people only see things their own way, or the way it suits them best. If a child had some sort of accident on school property, then by all means point the finger of responsibility. Removal of a child from Catholic practices within a Catholic school is a preference, and not the schools problem.


Not all parents would want that option either. Some might not want their child to set foot in a church.

not cop-out bs but fact. removal of children from practices that should not be taking place in a place of education, practices which are not subscribed to or believed in by most people, is not a preference but a necessity. the school is responsible for the wellfare of the child on school property and it is not the parents job to mind children during school time because of religious discrimination. and that is what this is, religious discrimination, which has caused nothing but problems in this country. parents are legally obligated to send their children to school unless home schooling, so therefore it is the school's job to insure activities are inclusive to all children.

Steviesol

tringle wrote: »

OP, your children are your responsibility 24/7 regardless of who else they are with and you need to be able to provide care for them even when they are in school.
I understand that you discussed the religion issue at the time of enrolement and if they were going to the church every day then it would be an issue...but its one hour in the year, surely that's manageable for them. I don't believe in religion but had no problems with my children seeing it and attending churches for family or school occasions. If invited to a wedding would you refuse to attend a church service.
Either let them go to the church with the school or look after them, its not the schools responsibility to provide childcare.

Start your own tradition on that day.

I was asking of anyone has experience with this and school. I don't need a lecture. Thanks

Nettle Soup

It is beyond stupidity that we still teach religion in our schools and oversee religious rituals (which most people perceive as nonsense e.g first communion).
People will look back in 20 years and laugh. Some secondary schools have more religious classes in their timetable than Science and PE.
Madness.

Estrellita

end of the road wrote: »

not cop-out bs but fact. removal of children from practices that should not be taking place in a place of education, practices which are not subscribed to or believed in by most people, is not a preference but a necessity.

Says you. I sent my children to Catholic schools because our family is of the Catholic faith. Why don't you send your children to the non religion specific schools instead of trying to force change within a school that religion specific parents want to send their children to? Or you could just collect the children while religious practices take place. Very, very simple.

rainbow kirby

You're more than a little deluded if you actually think that all parents have a realistic choice. Virtually every ET school is heavily oversubscribed and there are huge areas of the country without any of them. The Community National School model is terrible too, segregation by religion built into it as a default and a religion course that was basically written by the RCC anyway.

tringle

Steviesol wrote: »

I was asking of anyone has experience with this and school. I don't need a lecture. Thanks

Then I will apologise, it wasn't meant as a lecture.