Church and School

neonsofa

MadDog76 wrote: »

Being ridiculous and petty is standard form for the new non-religious it would seem ........ they're a funny ol' bunch if you ask me!

We're all born "non religious", how can one be "new non religious"? What does that even mean?

MadDog76

bluewolf wrote: »

and insisting they are going to a church to be actively confirmed in a faith none of them believe in is a mockery to actual believers
i doubt anyone would do it to another religion, they'd have more respect

It's ironic that you would mention respect when it comes to religion!

neonsofa

neonsofa wrote: »

We're all born "non religious", how can one be "new non religious"? What does that even mean?

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not entirely. For example I would support the establishment of said schools, but I wouldn't send my child to one.





The eradication of the type of school I would want for my child would be an attempt to infringe on my right as my child's parent to enrol them in a school which is congruent with my beliefs, values and philosophy. Some posters are indeed understandably only like myself interested in their own children's welfare and education, but you can't ignore the fact that there are many posters who are attempting to argue what they imagine is more beneficial to all children, from their perspective. They don't appear to appreciate or even want to acknowledge that other people do not share their perspective.

So 1 - your initial statement was erroneous (by your own words, this specific point is NOT about your kids); and 2 - no-one is trying to eradicate anything, so your initial point here is also erroneous.

MadDog76 wrote: »

Why should a religious organisation have to donate, free of charge, highly valuable land/buildings to the State for use by the children of tax payers?

Oh wait, they don't actually have to but they do anyway .......... your welcome!

Because they require state funding and trained personnel.

waterfaerie

farmerwifelet wrote: »

If you send your children to a Catholic school then yes you should expect Catholic teaching to happen there and yes it involves trips to the local church. If the school doesn't have the resources to mind your children back at the school during said trips then either let the children go and observe or mind them yourself its that easy.

I think it is funny that people are shocked that Catholic schools have a Catholic ethos and that this might involve a trip to the church. If I sent my child to a Jewish school then i would presume a trip to a synagogue would probably happen at some stage.

Your point would be valid if everyone in the country had the choice to send their children to a non Catholic school. The sad reality is that the majority of people don't have that choice.

neonsofa

bluewolf wrote: »

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

waterfaerie

MadDog76 wrote: »

I'm a Catholic by tradition, not by belief and I wish to continue that tradition with/for my children ............ you could say I "indentify" as being Catholic without having the Rosary Beads to hand.

Bouncy Castle Catholic

neonsofa

neonsofa wrote: »

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

'it didn't affect me at all. i'm just forcing my children into it and lying on the census about it. not a bit.'

eviltwin

MadDog76 wrote: »

I specifically said I'm NOT religious ......... ???

And you aren't a Catholic either

waterfaerie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, what would you do if you vegetarian, and the school was going on a visit to a dairy farm?

Tell the kids to not believe the stories about the benefits of drinking cows milk? Or occupy your kids some other way that day yourself?

That's a ridiculous comparison. You're comparing a one off hypothetical event with something that is a real, pervasive, continual issue for many, many families in schools across the country.

It would only be fair to make such a comparison if the school spent two and a half hours a week preaching about how great it is to eat meat and letting all of the vegetarian kids colour in during that time instead of learning something useful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

MadDog76 wrote: »

Not exactly .......... I'm a non-religious Catholic!

You're gonna tell me you're a vegetarian who eats meat next...

waterfaerie

Estrellita wrote: »

Says you. I sent my children to Catholic schools because our family is of the Catholic faith.

Oh, the system is obviously grand so, since you're happy with it.

Estrellita wrote: »

Why don't you send your children to the non religion specific schools instead of trying to force change within a school that religion specific parents want to send their children to?

Maybe they would if they could?

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So 1 - your initial statement was erroneous (by your own words, this specific point is NOT about your kids); and

My initial statement wasn't erroneous? I said I would support that poster in their efforts if they wanted to provide a different type of education for their children -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you want a different type of education for your children, I would support your efforts

You asked me a completely different question.

2 - no-one is trying to eradicate anything, so your initial point here is also erroneous.

I think you're ignoring the substantial number of posters who have tried to argue that religion has no place in education.

end of the road

bluewolf wrote: »

and insisting they are going to a church to be actively confirmed in a faith none of them believe in is a mockery to actual believers
i doubt anyone would do it to another religion, they'd have more respect

i completely agree. these people are being disrespectful in my opinion. i have no issue what soever with those who are genuinely religious, i know a number of them and they are good people. but i do have a problem with alacart catholics, and those genuine religious people i know often tell me how they don't have time for them either.

MadDog76 wrote: »

No need to get upset, I'm sorry if my identifying as Catholic upsets your definition of Catholic but you'll just have to get over it.

i'm not upset over it, i think you are misguided.

waterfaerie

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t know what statistics you are basing your “most people” on . I think you probably mean “most people” you know personally.
The Census says 78% identify as Catholic.
That puts your “most people” in the bin.

There was a survey done by the church itself that I read about a while ago. I don't remember the figures or details (maybe someone else has the link?).

Anyway, they surveyed mass goers, who I'm sure we all agree make up a very small fraction of that 78%, and a massive percentage of those mass goers put down that they didn't even believe in God!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My initial statement wasn't erroneous? I said I would support that poster in their efforts if they wanted to provide a different type of education for their children -





You asked me a completely different question.

No, becuase you don't support them.

I think you're ignoring the substantial number of posters who have tried to argue that religion has no place in education.

That's not what's being argued: poster would be fine with it having a place - provided siad place was optional and an alternative must be arranged for abstainers. No one wants to see religion eradicated from the curriculum, people just want to see it as an option funded by the church in question (be it catholic, protestant, muslim, pastafarian, whatever)

waterfaerie

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I went to a catholic school without becoming indoctrinated

Typical Irish attitude. Instead of striving for the best thing for everyone, we put up with cr*ppy systems (not just in education) because "sure it's not that bad" or "it never did me any harm".

waterfaerie

MadDog76 wrote: »

Why should a religious organisation have to donate, free of charge, highly valuable land/buildings to the State for use by the children of tax payers?

Oh wait, they don't actually have to but they do anyway .......... your welcome!

I wonder why?...

One eyed Jack

end of the road wrote: »

and then there are those of us who don't have children, who believe that an education system must be inclusive to all, regardless of religion. that 1 religion must not be favoured, or given a higher status then other religions.

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

you cannot be catholic by tradition. you cannot identify as catholic when you don't believe in the religion. you are either a catholic or your not, and you aren't.

You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

MadDog76

bluewolf wrote: »

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

An "edgy" traditionalist? That doesn't really work, does it??

If you really feel the need to put a label on it you could try a Traditional Catholic? An Honest Catholic maybe?? Or you just pick a title because it makes zero difference to me, I'm happy enough to just call myself Catholic being a traditional kinda fella an' all.

MadDog76

neonsofa wrote: »

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

waterfaerie wrote: »

Bouncy Castle Catholic

bluewolf wrote: »

'it didn't affect me at all. i'm just forcing my children into it and lying on the census about it. not a bit.'

eviltwin wrote: »

And you aren't a Catholic either

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're gonna tell me you're a vegetarian who eats meat next...

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, becuase you don't support them.

I said I would support their efforts, that doesn't mean I would support the school itself by enrolling my child there, and that's why when you asked about supporting a State secular education system, I said not entirely. I support peoples efforts to have their children educated according to their philosophy, it doesn't follow that I would want my child educated in their philosophy.

That's not what's being argued: poster would be fine with it having a place - provided siad place was optional and an alternative must be arranged for abstainers. No one wants to see religion eradicated from the curriculum, people just want to see it as an option funded by the church in question (be it catholic, protestant, muslim, pastafarian, whatever)

I think you need to go back through this thread, and the many before it, because you appear to be missing a fair amount of posts.

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

An "edgy" traditionalist? That doesn't really work, does it??

If you really feel the need to put a label on it you could try a Traditional Catholic? An Honest Catholic maybe?? Or you just pick a title because it makes zero difference to me, I'm happy enough to just call myself Catholic being a traditional kinda fella an' all.

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

evolving_doors

A different school for every faith and none.. All funded by the state.
Shur we should do the same for the hospitals too.
I think my kid needs a Catholic appendectomy!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We could indeed, if that's what you'd like?

Eh! no you couldn't, that's nuts.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn't particularly care one way or the other tbh. If you believe people should have that right then you go right ahead and campaign for it.

And therein lies the nub.
If the segregation doesn't bother the majority of some folk then there mustn't be a problem.

Candamir

MadDog76 wrote: »

I'm a Catholic by tradition, not by belief and I wish to continue that tradition with/for my children ............ you could say I "indentify" as being Catholic without having the Rosary Beads to hand.

Ok. So your ‘belief system’ is a bit bizarre, but I’d say it’s actually the norm rather than the exception if people were honest with themselves.
The thing is though, you can have all of that - bring your children up in a traditional catholic way with communion and confirmation etc without 95% of our schools doing the ‘traditional catholic’ bit for you. On the other hand, many people who aren’t catholic - those of minority faiths and none - have real difficulty with sending their children to faith schools, and having to make them feel ‘the odd one out’ because they’re ‘different’ to everybody else. When in fact they may not be - if most of the other kids are in the same boat as yours!
Wouldn’t it be better if the kids were just left to get in with it at school and we parents did the faith stuff at home?

waterfaerie wrote: »

There was a survey done by the church itself that I read about a while ago. I don't remember the figures or details (maybe someone else has the link?).

Anyway, they surveyed mass goers, who I'm sure we all agree make up a very small fraction of that 78%, and a massive percentage of those mass goers put down that they didn't even believe in God!

Jesus wept. I mean, if he does exist, he’d literally be weeping at that surely.

Allinall

bluewolf wrote: »

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

Enforcing on their kids?

Where did you get that from?

Allinall

Allinall wrote: »

Enforcing on their kids?

Where did you get that from?

here

MadDog76 wrote: »

Yet I'm passionate about my children being raised Catholic with all the traditions that go with being Catholic, ie. attending a Catholic school, celebrating Christmas, Communion, Confirmation and so on .

Allinall

bluewolf wrote: »

here

Enforcing?

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

Allinall

bluewolf wrote: »

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

Where did they say they make their kids do anything?

MadDog76

bluewolf wrote: »

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

*shrugs* I was raised a Catholic, I'm raising my children as Catholics the same way I was .......... hopefully the tradition continues and if it doesn't I probably won't be around to see it end anyway so ......... Happy Christmas!!!

MadDog76

Candamir wrote: »

Ok. So your ‘belief system’ is a bit bizarre, but I’d say it’s actually the norm rather than the exception if people were honest with themselves.
The thing is though, you can have all of that - bring your children up in a traditional catholic way with communion and confirmation etc without 95% of our schools doing the ‘traditional catholic’ bit for you. On the other hand, many people who aren’t catholic - those of minority faiths and none - have real difficulty with sending their children to faith schools, and having to make them feel ‘the odd one out’ because they’re ‘different’ to everybody else. When in fact they may not be - if most of the other kids are in the same boat as yours!
Wouldn’t it be better if the kids were just left to get in with it at school and we parents did the faith stuff at home?

A big part of my traditional Catholic upbringing was the Catholic school aspect so I wouldn't like that to be any different for my children.

Candamir

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.



You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

All of that is a special kind of funny.
By any metric he is not catholic. A belief in god is a fundamental prerequisite. You should have a chat with a theologian about it.

Hannibal_Smith

end of the road wrote: »

. i have no issue what soever with those who are genuinely religious.

Except for being disrespectful enough to ridicule their religion

end of the road wrote: »

this is why we need to remove sky fairies from our schools, to insure inclusivity, and activities accessible to all.

MadDog76

bluewolf wrote: »

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

You're hilarious! You're definitely my favourite poster on this thread!!

I didn't "make" my children do anything, they happily collected their Confirmation money just like all their friends did ......... no children were harmed during the Mass at all.

One eyed Jack

evolving_doors wrote: »

Eh! no you couldn't, that's nuts.

Why did you suggest it then? I don't have an issue with it.

And therein lies the nub.
If the segregation doesn't bother the majority of some folk then there mustn't be a problem.

That's generally the way things work, yes? You wouldn't have a problem if the majority of schools catered to your particular whims, so why should you expect other people should care when they don't?

At least a school for every whim would still mean education was being provided for by the State, as per it's obligations.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

MadDog76 wrote: »

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

Well you did come out with some grade-A bull**** even by AH standards, but this IS the kinda **** that happens when people like you put themselves down as "Catholic" on the bloody census forms!!

neonsofa

MadDog76 wrote: »

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

Upset? I clearly stated I was baffled. Not identifying as baffled but really actually upset- just genuinely baffled...in the traditional sense :pac:

One eyed Jack

Candamir wrote: »

All of that is a special kind of funny.
By any metric he is not catholic. A belief in god is a fundamental prerequisite. You should have a chat with a theologian about it.

If he says he is, then who is anyone to contradict him? Where does it actually get anyone or what does it achieve?

I don't think it's particularly funny at all, but because it doesn't interfere with me, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as a snapback turtle either. That's entirely their own business.

evolving_doors

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

Really?


Enrolement.JPG

That's just a randomly picked school policy. Nothing unusual about it compared to similar schools.
Selective inclusion isn't really 'inclusion' now is it?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

What exactly was that special position that has disappeared from today's schools?

One eyed Jack

evolving_doors wrote: »

Really?


Enrolement.JPG

That's just a randomly picked school policy. Nothing unusual about it compared to similar schools.

What exactly was that special position that has disappeared from today's schools?

I thought it was understood I was referring to the patronage system with regard to how the Irish education system is provided for. Given that they are the largest patron in the running, it would surely stand to reason that the schools which receive the most funding would be Catholic schools.

I also said that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum (84% in favour in fact, in 1972!). You appear to be talking about something completely different.

evolving_doors

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I thought it was understood I was referring to the patronage system with regard to how the Irish education system is provided for. Given that they are the largest patron in the running, it would surely stand to reason that the schools which receive the most funding would be Catholic schools.

I also said that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum (84% in favour in fact, in 1972!). You appear to be talking about something completely different.

Oh sorry I thought you said no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

waterfaerie

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

Sometimes I think you must be trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. Nobody can believe that to be true.

I suppose when it's you in the position of privilege, you need to try your hardest to convince everyone that the current status quo is fair and equal.

Thankfully, more and more people are seeing the shambles of an eduction system we have for what it is and, "inclusive to all", it is not.

One eyed Jack

evolving_doors wrote: »

Oh sorry I thought you said no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none.

I did, that's also why I said that you appear to be talking about something completely different. I'll be honest, you have me confused. When you argue for one thing and I agree, you turn round and say it's nuts, then when I say that no one religion is treated more favourably than another, and point out that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Irish Constitution nearly 50 years ago, you point out the enrolment policy of an individual school...

I'm genuinely baffled tbh.

One eyed Jack

waterfaerie wrote: »

Sometimes I think you must be trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. Nobody can believe that to be true.

I suppose when it's you in the position of privilege, you need to try your hardest to convince everyone that the current status quo is fair and equal.

Thankfully, more and more people are seeing the shambles of an eduction system we have for what it is and, "inclusive to all", it is not.

Do you understand the difference between the education system, and individual patrons within that system who provide education, a service to the State, which the State is obliged to provide for?

Anyone with so much as a rudimentary understanding of our education system should understand at least that much, before we get into any discussion about how individual patrons are permitted by law to ensure that they maintain the ethos of their schools.

justfillmein

back to the original question,

steve I think in this situation you are actually asking for a bit much.
the whole school is going to this mass, so really I do think its up to you to make arrangments for your child if you don't want them to go.
if its an issue with time off work for you, then you might have to just allow the child to join his/her class.

we have no religion in our home and are not bastised, but our school is a catholic school.
I dont make a big song and dance about any of the religion stuff that goes on. some people do, i don't.
I actually would like my kiddo to participate in the class and question things, but he has no interest, & i'm hardly going to force him.
we speak about religion(s) at home ourselves, i'd imagine a lot more than most 'catholic' people we know, so i'm not worried about any indoctrination happening from what he hears in school.

last year his class made their communion, he just went to another class and had some chill time which he was happy to have.

if it was something that the whole school were going to though, he'd go with them.


I think going forward you need find out what the schools policy is for opted out kids.
I have a quick chat with any new teacher at the start of each year to tell them we don't participate and ask what will jnr do at religion time.
It has never been a problem, the school has been great with us.


*also its a bit hard to avoid catholic schools when something like 90% of the school are catholic, so parents don't always have a choice but to send there kids there.

waterfaerie

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You wouldn't have a problem if the majority of schools catered to your particular whims, so why should you expect other people should care when they don't?

At least a school for every whim would still mean education was being provided for by the State, as per it's obligations.

It would be nice if schools didn't cater to anyone's particular whim and just got on with education, like they do in the rest of the world (bar the religious extremist states).

I can't speak for the poster you were referring to but if I believed in a particular religion I would absolutely have a problem if the majority of schools catered to it as I'm not interested in pushing my own beliefs on others, especially not in a situation where it doesn't belong, like schools.

The way you carry on it's as if you think atheists want the schools to start teaching that there's no god and that religion is bad. They don't. They just don't want religion brought into it at all.

You know that as well as I do but it's convenient to your argument to play the victim.

end of the road

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

it's not fully inclusive to all. catholicism is given a higher status then other religions, as most schools subscribe to an ethos based on that religion, and are in turn funded by the state.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

it's not my place, but it is the place of the head of the church, who is seen as the most holy of gods people on earth.

MadDog76

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well you did come out with some grade-A bull**** even by AH standards, but this IS the kinda **** that happens when people like you put themselves down as "Catholic" on the bloody census forms!!

I was Baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, I followed the Catholic ethos through school right up to Marriage and I've passed the tradition onto my children and I identify as Catholic so guess what? That's right, I'm Catholic whether you like/agree/approve/accept it or not ..........

nice_guy80

I've read 14 pages of mainly nonsense

all of this would be solved in the morning if there was no religious faith formation in our state funded schools

parents would then finally be free to exercise their right to influence the faith formation (or none) of their children in whichever church, chapel, mosque they so choose outside of school time

if the religious orders want money for the school grounds, most of them still owe a lot of money for the child abuse retribution scheme