Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

wong

gstack166 wrote: »

It’s not remotely valid when you mis-quoted everything I said.

"United have bought terribly it’s as simple as. Miky, Lindelof, Shaw, Fellani, Herrara, jury still out on both Pogba & Lukaku, that’s 275m of players there & 5 of them certainly aren’t of the level required to play for Manchester United."

They are not of the level required to play for Manchester United yet Pogba, Herrera and Fellaini were part of a team that won two trophies last season?

How is that point not valid?

gstack166

gstack166 wrote: »

I’m not a netural I’m afraid, but I try my best to see without blinkers, doesn’t always work but I try. That still doesn’t make a case for my judgement about a player though.

The fact that you say he’s a good squad player but gets into Arsenal Spurs & the Liverpool team tells me enough about this conversation. I’ll leave it be now.

Out of interest let's just pick out a few players here.
Lingard isn't a better player or equivalent than ox Chamberlain?
What if Wijnaldum? Lalanna?

What of Arsenals squad? Jack Wilshire, Ramsey, coqeluin? Willock? Xhaka?

I could go on.

bucketybuck

gstack166 wrote: »

In your honest opinion, how many of the top 6 clubs would Jesse Lingard start in?

Do you think he’s of the level or ever will be of the level to win a championship for Manchester United.

Do you think he justifies his wage of 100k a week?

Genuinely interest to hear the response.

Why are you going on about Jesse Lingard? A player that people in this thread correctly judge to be a good squad player and a useful option but not much more than that?

More to the point, why go on about one of our squad players when the manager is only in his second season and hasn't yet had the chance to replace every single player in the squad with a world class upgrade?

Lingard has done superbly well considering his talent and opportunity and he deserves credit for that, but just who is claiming that he is anything more than a good squad player?

gstack166

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Out of interest let's just pick out a few players here.
Lingard isn't a better player or equivalent than ox Chamberlain?
What if Wijnaldum? Lalanna?

What of Arsenals squad? Jack Wilshire, Ramsey, coqeluin? Willock? Xhaka?

I could go on.

2 of them players you’ve mentioned are starting at their clubs. 5 play in a total different position. Jesse Lingard is playing on the wing of a front 3 isn’t he?

An equal comparison would be to suggest he gets in instead of one of - Salah or Mane. Or Sanchez or Ozil. I’m sorry, but no way.

TheCitizen

How come we can't see this brawl? Probably makes Jose look like a tool I'd imagine.

gstack166

gstack166 wrote: »

I’m not a netural I’m afraid, but I try my best to see without blinkers, doesn’t always work but I try. That still doesn’t make a case for my judgement about a player though.

The fact that you say he’s a good squad player but gets into Arsenal Spurs & the Liverpool team tells me enough about this conversation. I’ll leave it be now.

I don't know how closely you follow United but Lingard has really stepped up at United especially in the last few games, there are some areas of his game he certainly needs to improve on still. But he is really suited to playing the counter attacking game which Jose tries/does play against the bigger teams. He has also contributed some big/important goals for us over the last few seasons.

He was a player I wouldn't have minded seeing leave if he was upgraded on at the start of the season but if he continues to improve I'd gladly have him at the club as a squad option

gstack166

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are you going on about Jesse Lingard? A player that people in this thread correctly judge to be a good squad player and a useful option but not much more than that?

More to the point, why go on about one of our squad players when the manager is only in his second season and hasn't yet had the chance to replace every single player in the squad with a world class upgrade?

Lingard has done superbly well considering his talent and opportunity and he deserves credit for that, but just who is claiming that he is anything more than a good squad player?

If you read my first post mentioning him, I quoted a poster who said he wouldn’t bother watching United if the likes of Lingard wasn’t playing. I merely stated by actually playing the likes of Lingard is one of the reasons why United are 11 points behind. Is that not a fair comment?

gstack166

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know how closely you follow United but Lingard has really stepped up at United especially in the last few games, there are some areas of his game he certainly needs to improve on still. But he is really suited to playing the counter attacking game which Jose tries/does play against the bigger teams. He has also contributed some big/important goals for us over the last few seasons.

He was a player I wouldn't have minded seeing leave if he was upgraded on at the start of the season but if he continues to improve I'd gladly have him at the club as a squad option

I don’t know how much of my post you read. I’m arguing a case that Lingard doesn’t get near a starting place at Spurs Liverpool or Arsenal. I’ve no problem with Lingard but he gets zero game time in the top 6 outside of United.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My issue with the academy is that in recent years it feels like we are struggling to bring through top prospects

But how do we compare to the other top clubs in that regard?

How many of the European big clubs have academy players in their first teams right now, never mind world class academy players in their first teams? I'd be interested to know the who's and where's.

Are there many examples of top prospects at these clubs who were not bought in at some stage?

gstack166

gstack166 wrote: »

If you read my first post mentioning him, I quoted a poster who said he wouldn’t bother watching United if the likes of Lingard wasn’t playing. I merely stated by actually playing the likes of Lingard is one of the reasons why United are 11 points behind. Is that not a fair comment?

The poster was referring to players coming through from the youth acamadies. Lingard is mainly in the team due to a massive drop in form out of Miki and has played well since he has come in. Which is exactly what you want from your squad players ready to step up and do a job in times of injury/suspension/poorform if Miki doesn't come could again or start performing to the levels required of a first team regualr he will be the one most likely replaced before lingard.

Cookiemunster

gstack166 wrote: »

I don’t know how much of my post you read. I’m arguing a case that Lingard doesn’t get near a starting place at Spurs Liverpool or Arsenal. I’ve no problem with Lingard but he gets zero game time in the top 6 outside of United.

Fabian Delph doesn't get into any top 6 side outside of City. What's your point? Every club has squad players who aren't world class, but who do a job.

wong

gstack166 wrote: »

If you read my first post mentioning him, I quoted a poster who said he wouldn’t bother watching United if the likes of Lingard wasn’t playing. I merely stated by actually playing the likes of Lingard is one of the reasons why United are 11 points behind. Is that not a fair comment?

Well he scored the winning goals against Arsenal and Watford in the two games before City that won us 6 points. He only started 1 game before the last three so you can't blame him for us being 11 points behind no

Drumpot

jayo26 wrote: »

Well now your talking explain what the obvious issues are?

If you have no problems about been second behind city and are happy to make progress in champions league where are the problems?

The reason I don't criticise Jose more is because I am a fan if his and have no problems on saying that and yes I will defend him and the club because I am happy in the direction the club is going and I don't believe in making rash calls over specific games I prefer judge a season on what happens at the end of it.


Edit: think I misread your post haha :P

I actually think Jose is doing an extremely good job at steering the club back to the top. I also think pretty much every signing he has made has been an improvement.

I just feel that Most of the top clubs in Europe spend as much or more as United.

United, under SAF and when publically owned, were successful as much because of their success as their support. Chelsea and City warped this strategy with steroid investments. Then the United owners handicapped the club for the guts of a decade with massive debt and forcing our manager to not buy a top player at their peak until RVP in 2012. Owen Heargreaves was as close to a peak signing we got over 8 years! For 8 years, SAF didn't want a player who was at the peak of their game ? Really ? That sounds totally plausible that one of the most successful managers of all time was happy not buying ready to go world class players coincidentally once the owner leveraged the club with massive debts.

2004-05 - Net Spend €50mil Chelsea €160
2005-06 - Net Spend €24 Chelsea €57.5m
2006- 07 - Net Spend €9mil Chelsea €35.8m
2007-08- Net Spend €57 mil City €67
2008-09- Net Spend €38 mil City €130
2009-10- Net Spend €76 mil Profit City €116
2010-11- Net Spend €12 mil City €145
2011-12- Net Spend €48 mil City €57
2012-13- Net Spend €65 mil City €17.6mil
2013-14- Net Spend €73 mil City €104mil
2014-15- Net Spend €146 mil City €57mil
2015-16- Net Spend €54 mil City €145mil
2016-17- Net Spend €137 mil City €177mil
2017-18- Net Spend €152 mil City €152mil

I included Chelsea in that list as they were the big challengers before City. Twice in the guts of 15 years, the "biggest and richest club in the world" has outspent its nearest English competitors (this doesn't include the best of Europe). Quite regularly the club has been smashed by its rivals and only in the last 3 years can they really say they are trying to match spending.

Its a fallacy that some people have bought, that the owners have supported the club proportionately to profits and proportionately to rivals. Yet phrases like "United have bought 3 of the most expensive 12 players in the last few years" are trotted out as if that merits any real support.

I think the clubs rank as second in England is warranted by that graph alone. Couple that with bad transfer strategies, poor managerial appointments and possibly bad negotiating techniques of a CEO people are presuming is good at his job because he has signed people!

I think the long term spending figures are important because there was massive under investment in the squad for years in comparison with our rivals. I don't think it was all "SAF was given whatever he wanted but just didn't want to spend". I also think one off transfer quotes like "United broke transfer record" or uniteds Gross spend can be creativily used to back up the Glazers.

And for the record, I don't like the owners or Woodward (in case it wasn't apparent) and I do think that since SAF and Gill left, their deficiencies at anything other then whoring the club brand to anybody who will listen, has been exposed from a football perspective. But now the strategy is "Buy big" and get the big manager, the club is way behind City (and Chelsea) because its a strategy its only learning. I would say we are in a similar spot to City 2011 where we are on an upward curve but will need to keep the massive spending going. Its not that I accept 2nd best, I just don't think we are in a position to be demanding top honors quite yet.

bucketybuck

gstack166 wrote: »

I merely stated by actually playing the likes of Lingard is one of the reasons why United are 11 points behind. Is that not a fair comment?

Of course it is, United can do much better than Lingard. In their first eleven. As a squad player he is pretty damn good and has more than pulled his weight.

gstack166 wrote: »

I don’t know how much of my post you read. I’m arguing a case that Lingard doesn’t get near a starting place at Spurs Liverpool or Arsenal. I’ve no problem with Lingard but he gets zero game time in the top 6 outside of United.

This is absolutely not a fair comment, Lingard gets games at any of those clubs, just the same as Son, Wellbeck, Milner and Oxlade Chamberlin get games at those clubs. Just as Fabien Delph gets games at City.

gstack166

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Fabian Delph doesn't get into any top 6 side outside of City. What's your point? Every club has squad players who aren't world class, but who do a job.

Yer melting my head here. I was saying Lingard DOESNT get into any top 6 team outside United. What’s the issue with that point? Is it a wrong statement?

I know Delph doesn’t, but I wasn’t the one who posted he gets into Liverpool Spurs or Arsenal’s teams with a emphasise of the words ‘no question’

Drumpot

gstack166 wrote: »

Yer melting my head here. I was saying Lingard DOESNT get into any top 6 team outside United. What’s the issue with that point? Is it a wrong statement?

I know Delph doesn’t, but I wasn’t the one who posted he gets into Liverpool Spurs or Arsenal’s teams with a emphasise of the words ‘no question’

Park , O'Shea , Blomqvist, Fletcher, Rohnny Johnson and Philly come to mind. . Players that SAF was always happy to play in the biggest games. I remember Nicky Butt playing in a few big ones aswell. These are not exceptional players who would make it onto top teams, but they were solid squad players.

Squad players like Lingaard are always under appreciated.

gstack166

gstack166 wrote: »

Yer melting my head here. I was saying Lingard DOESNT get into any top 6 team outside United. What’s the issue with that point? Is it a wrong statement?

I know Delph doesn’t, but I wasn’t the one who posted he gets into Liverpool Spurs or Arsenal’s teams with a emphasise of the words ‘no question’

Your moving the goal posts a bit you have said both he doesn't get into them teams and also would get 0 playing time if he was there (which isn't true)

wong

I'm just going back to your point when you questioned whether he would ever be in a Championship winning squad earlier and the answer is yes.
No team that has ever won the league has had a team full of stars. It's a squad game and everyone plays their part.

If Pascal Cygan and Jeremie Aliadiere can win a title with Arsenal...
and If Jack Rodwell and Jesus Navas can win a title with City...

than Jesse can surely break bad.

adox

Fellaini was a fecking bargain.

That is all.

StringerBell

gstack166 wrote: »

2 of them players you’ve mentioned are starting at their clubs. 5 play in a total different position. Jesse Lingard is playing on the wing of a front 3 isn’t he?

An equal comparison would be to suggest he gets in instead of one of - Salah or Mane. Or Sanchez or Ozil. I’m sorry, but no way.

Surely you can understand the point of view that if you don't even know where Lingard plays, or indeed the system United play there is no point in talking about him?

Adamocovic

Can't believe I read those previous pages.

Lithium93_

Adamocovic wrote: »

Can't believe I read those previous pages.

Cliff notes for those who can't be arsed please.

Adamocovic

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Cliff notes for those who can't be arsed please.

It's a crossfire of debates going on during this super Tuesday special.

1. Jesse Lingard, useful squad player or useless odd player? Does he have what it takes to make it at United.
2. United's net spend. Mo' money mo' problems?
3. The Children of the Revolution. Will parents decide to push their kids towards the neighbours youth system? Is the youth system actually any good?

Read back to find your answers!

Cantona's Collars

At least there's a game tomorrow night to bring back a bit of focus.........If we don't win we may as well lock this and any other United related threads.

Cantona's Collars

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

At least there's a game tomorrow night to bring back a bit of focus.........If we don't win we may as well lock this and any other United related threads.

If we lose we'd have to close the whole forum down then

bucketybuck

The most pertinent question right now is why the MOTM in the Uefa cup final and current Manchester United player of the year has completely gone to the dogs?

Mitch Connor

Adamocovic wrote: »

It's a crossfire of debates going on during this super Tuesday special.

1. Jesse Lingard, useful squad player or useless odd player? Does he have what it takes to make it at United.
2. United's net spend. Mo' money mo' problems?
3. The Children of the Revolution. Will parents decide to push their kids towards the neighbours youth system? Is the youth system actually any good?

Read back to find your answers!

The initial statement was lingard doesn't start for other sides.

In a first choice side fir the other big teams he doesn't start he doesn't start imo.

Neither would Delph, as mentioned, but he is playing cause mendy is injured. Delph is a squad player.

If Miki was playing to ability, I don't think lingard would start here either. Lingard is playing at the moment, imo, because of form, fitness, and availability of others. BUT he has also earned a right to play as well, imo. Very good squad player imo. I think Carrick and fellaini also being out has contributed, and Pogba missing at the weekend.

I think lingard being classed as a starter for United is a mistake in this conversation, but that's where it started.

At other sides I think lingard would be a good squad player too, but not first choice - which is the actual argument that was being had before people muddied the waters.

Adamocovic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The initial statement was lingard doesn't start for other sides.

In a first choice side fir the other big teams he doesn't start he doesn't start imo.

Neither would Delph, as mentioned, but he is playing cause mendy is injured. Delph is a squad player.

If Miki was playing to ability, I don't think lingard would start here either. Lingard is playing at the moment, imo, because of form, fitness, and availability of others. BUT he has also earned a right to play as well, imo. Very good squad player imo. I think Carrick and fellaini also being out has contributed, and Pogba missing at the weekend.

I think lingard being classed as a starter for United is a mistake in this conversation, but that's where it started.

At other sides I think lingard would be a good squad player too, but not first choice - which is the actual argument that was being had before people muddied the waters.

I get that Mitch. And I agree with you.

The whole thread has been getting muddled over the last few days since the City loss. I've probably been guilty of it too!

Bridge93

bangkok wrote: »

Its not about winning leagues at academy level, its about producing 1 or 2 players that can make the step up into the first team or if they cant make it are sold to make a profit for the club.

How much would rashford be worth in the current market?? 60,70 80m??

Look at tall the ex utd players currently playing in the league. Where are all of citys?

I don't think anyone can doubt united have been streets ahead in youth development for years. It is looking forward that the tide has turned and city seem to have the cream of the crop in the area.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2198548/manchester-citys-youth-sides-crush-their-manchester-united-counterparts-in-a-week-to-remember-for-the-blue-side-of-the-city/

Luis21

Herrera lads.

Garbage.

Drumpot

Bridge93 wrote: »

I don't think anyone can doubt united have been streets ahead in youth development for years. It is looking forward that the tide has turned and city seem to have the cream of the crop in the area.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2198548/manchester-citys-youth-sides-crush-their-manchester-united-counterparts-in-a-week-to-remember-for-the-blue-side-of-the-city/

As far as I could tell Lingaard and Rashford were the only youth players from either team on show at the weekend.

But I do agree, that within the next 2-3 years we will start to see the impact of City's youth investment.

That said, I cant click on any "the sun" link or take anything serious from that shower of (" beginning with C, ending with T with a bit of un")'s.

jayo26

Holy God I'm overwhelmed with all these new posters all of a sudden if we were back down in 7th place we would have unbelievable busy thread.

bangkok

Bridge93 wrote: »

I don't think anyone can doubt united have been streets ahead in youth development for years. It is looking forward that the tide has turned and city seem to have the cream of the crop in the area.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2198548/manchester-citys-youth-sides-crush-their-manchester-united-counterparts-in-a-week-to-remember-for-the-blue-side-of-the-city/

Your missing the point, yes city may have a "better team" but there may have been 1 or 2 class players in the united team with the potential to be future first teamers and thats all that matters

adox

Luis21 wrote: »

Herrera lads.

Garbage.

Musical groups?

wanderer100

Luis21 wrote: »

Herrera lads.

Garbage.

Saw a video of a guy ranting about him on United Stand I think. He was spot on about him. He offers nothing to our midfield. He isn't a box to box midfielder, he isn't a defensive midfielder like Matic, isn't an attacking midfielder that can play a killer pass or drive the ball out like Pogba. He is useless in my opinion. Yes he gives it his all and runs his socks off but his qualities are over rated. He is dead wood that needs to go next summer. That is just my opinion.

Bridge93

bangkok wrote: »

Your missing the point, yes city may have a "better team" but there may have been 1 or 2 class players in the united team with the potential to be future first teamers and thats all that matters

You're still looking backwards. City's academy is only coming to life now. They're too young to be first team regulars at this point as they're 18 at most. They haven't produced players to this point. The city academy teams from now forward are in a far better place to produce first teamers and can already be seen appearing with Foden, Sancho who went to Dortmund for massive money for a 17 year old and others.

Unless something changes it is from here forward you will see more city prospects appearing than united ones. No doubt from rashfords generation backwards united have produced far more quality

Anyway no more on the topic

Nalz

The stick Rojo, Lukaku and even Lingard and Martial are getting at times is comical when you look at Herrera.

Unlikable, ordinary, sneaky, average footballer.

Would not make City's or Spurs bench imo nevermind first 11.

jayo26

Bridge93 wrote: »

You're still looking backwards. City's academy is only coming to life now. They're too young to be first team regulars at this point as they're 18 at most. They haven't produced players to this point. The city academy teams from now forward are in a far better place to produce first teamers and can already be seen appearing with Foden, Sancho who went to Dortmund for massive money for a 17 year old and others.

Unless something changes it is from here forward you will see more city prospects appearing than united ones. No doubt from rashfords generation backwards united have produced far more quality

Anyway no more on the topic

Your trying to predict something that hasn't happened yet As it stands United have produced more quality then city until city have a couple of youth players in the first team playing games and winning medals the results of the youth academy is behind united.

For sure it may be the business and it may have excellent facilities but you can not say that it has served its purpose to city yet.

Liam McPoyle

Is there anything to be said for another mass?

piplip87

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/united-city-squad-152709

Fantastic article on United and it perfectly sums up Jose's "Philosophy". If United are to close the gap on City next season they will need somebody who will go with a plan to win big games. Joses parking the bus and hoping for a goal on the counter is admirable if he is managing West Brom but not United.

New manager, decent Striker for competition for Lukaku. Ibra when back to 100% will have Lukaku on the bench.

bangkok

wanderer100 wrote: »

Saw a video of a guy ranting about him on United Stand I think. He was spot on about him. He offers nothing to our midfield. He isn't a box to box midfielder, he isn't a defensive midfielder like Matic, isn't an attacking midfielder that can play a killer pass or drive the ball out like Pogba. He is useless in my opinion. Yes he gives it his all and runs his socks off but his qualities are over rated. He is dead wood that needs to go next summer. That is just my opinion.

you talking about Fellaini??

Ok im following Dave off the farm

bangkok

piplip87 wrote: »

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/united-city-squad-152709

Fantastic article on United and it perfectly sums up Jose's "Philosophy". If United are to close the gap on City next season they will need somebody who will go with a plan to win big games. Joses parking the bus and hoping for a goal on the counter is admirable if he is managing West Brom but not United.

New manager, decent Striker for competition for Lukaku. Ibra when back to 100% will have Lukaku on the bench.

ibra will be gone after this season

Drumpot

piplip87 wrote: »

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/united-city-squad-152709

Fantastic article on United and it perfectly sums up Jose's "Philosophy". If United are to close the gap on City next season they will need somebody who will go with a plan to win big games. Joses parking the bus and hoping for a goal on the counter is admirable if he is managing West Brom but not United.

New manager, decent Striker for competition for Lukaku. Ibra when back to 100% will have Lukaku on the bench.

What manager? Is there an X-24 version of Pep?

xtal191

A fantastic article on Joe?

piplip87

xtal191 wrote: »

A fantastic article on Joe?

Yes I know. I was shocked myself when reading it.

adox

piplip87 wrote: »

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/united-city-squad-152709

Fantastic article on United and it perfectly sums up Jose's "Philosophy". If United are to close the gap on City next season they will need somebody who will go with a plan to win big games. Joses parking the bus and hoping for a goal on the counter is admirable if he is managing West Brom but not United.

New manager, decent Striker for competition for Lukaku. Ibra when back to 100% will have Lukaku on the bench.

Ahahaha........



Hahaha......



#threadisfûcked

piplip87

Drumpot wrote: »

What manager? Is there an X-24 version of Pep?

I am fairly sure that one of the biggest clubs in world football, with unlimited spending power can attract a manager.

jayo26

It really is its like they all coming out if the woodwork.

New manager to replace the manager that is second place in league and parking the bus with the second highest amount of goals scored and after winning two trophies in his first year.

Im sorry but that's just bulsh1t talk.
Is it time to replace klopp and Wenger and pochitino and conte too..

bucketybuck

piplip87 wrote: »

I am fairly sure that one of the biggest clubs in world football, with unlimited spending power can attract a manager.

Likes Moyes or Van Gaal?

Short ****ing memories around here if you ask me.