Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

Do you ever remember any of Ferguson's press conferences?

I do. I think you’ll find I don’t suffer from blind nostalgia when it comes to Fergie. My post history will confirm that. But at least for the most part I enjoyed his United teams.

Pochettino is a class act though. It’s an admirable quality in my book. Some don’t care but I do.

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

But what's going wrong? The team is doing well why do people keep saying stuff is going wrong?

The fact we are discussing it is evidence of it going wrong. The fan anger from the Liverpool, City games is strong. The league position and champions league progress is good now but if either of them slip and he decides to take shots at the fans again he might end up in an irretrievable situation.

Cookiemunster

GSPfan wrote: »

Referees for starters. Always.
Blames football authorities for treating him differently. i.e. Peps political ribbon.
Criticised England for Jones injuries.
Blaming fans recently for not creating a better atmosphere.

Sounds a bit like Fergie.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

The fact we are discussing it is evidence of it going wrong. The fan anger from the Liverpool, City games is strong. The league position and champions league progress is good now but if either of them slip and he decides to take shots at the fans again he might end up in an irretrievable situation.

Is it that strong? I'd take a bet a minority currently over a majority.
And as for some of the home support, it think he has a point. Some of the atmosphere has been absolutely dreadful.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

I want to be able to watch a United game against one of our rivals and enjoy it. I pay money to Sky and Eir to watch football for entertainment. Winning a trophy comes after that.

Did you enjoy the Arsenal match?

GSPfan

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Did you enjoy the Arsenal match?

Yes, and I’ll tell you why. He played a 3412 system and trusted the team to get a result by playing football. That has been our best formation this year and has seen Lingard have his best games.

GSPfan

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Is it that strong? I'd take a bet a minority currently over a majority.
And as for some of the home support, it think he has a point. Some of the atmosphere has been absolutely dreadful.

I’d say it’s a strong reaction from a small group at the moment. But it’s there.

To be honest whether he is right or wrong about the crowd it is not his place to criticise a paying customer. They buy the clubs merchandise and they can all sit there in total silence if they want. It’s a bad move and he recently admitted as much by saying he won’t comment anymore on it.

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

Yes, and I’ll tell you why. He played a 3412 system and trusted the team to get a result by playing football. That has been our best formation this year and has seen Lingard have his best games.

Do you think the team and chances of success have improved or stalled under Jose, given the state we were in when he took over?

Do you remember SAF playing a very defensive setup against man city in 2012 after a hurrendous 4-4 draw with Everton? United lost 1-0 and united could of lost by 5. City won that league with the last kick of a ball so that result meant a lot! Top coaches can change tactics in big games if they feel it’s the best chance their team have of getting a result.

United beat arsenal the other week but had we conceded 3 or 4 goals that would not of been completely unmerited considering the performance of DDG. Is there any chance Jose looked at how porous our defense was and felt we needed to be more tight or city would rip us apart? Exactly how worried SAF was after our 4-4 draw with Everton? I am just making a point that one game in isolation is not a fair reflection of the progress that Jose is making and that even our greatest manager reverted to defensive tactics if he felt it was our best option.

deaddonkey15

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you think the team and chances of success have improved or stalled under Jose, given the state we were in when he took over?

Do you remember SAF playing a very defensive setup against man city in 2012 after a hurrendous 4-4 draw with Everton? United lost 1-0 and united could of lost by 5. City won that league with the last kick of a ball so that result meant a lot! Top coaches can change tactics in big games if they feel it’s the best chance their team have of getting a result.

United beat arsenal the other week but had we conceded 3 or 4 goals that would not of been completely unmerited considering the performance of DDG. Is there any chance Jose looked at how porous our defense was and felt we needed to be more tight or city would rip us apart? Exactly how panicked SAF was after our 4-4 draw with Everton? I am just making a point that one game in isolation is not a fair reflection of the progress that Jose is making and that even our greatest manager reverted to defensive tactics if he felt it was our best option.

It isn't one game in isolation though, it's pretty much every game against a big side under Mourinho.

jayo26

GSPfan wrote: »

The fact we are discussing it is evidence of it going wrong. The fan anger from the Liverpool, City games is strong. The league position and champions league progress is good now but if either of them slip and he decides to take shots at the fans again he might end up in an irretrievable situation.

Do you know how bad that sounds? I'm not having a dig but fans have a strong feeling over him because of two games?

No they don't fans have a bad feeling if him because they don't like him to begin with.. he has major major support at the club from the fans and the board yes maybe some games fans are unhappy with but the majority of United fans going to the stadium love him and get behind him every week.

Minority of fans wanted Ferguson gone many times too bit it doesn't matter what a minority thinks.

No one can have any issue with Jose purely on team achievements so far to date..

yes if results slip and we and up having a bad season I myself don't be happy but that don't mean I'm going to go on message boards and hope he gets sacked or go to the stadium and jeer him or the team.

GSPfan

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you think the team and chances of success have improved or stalled under Jose, given the state we were in when he took over?

Do you remember SAF playing a very defensive setup against man city in 2012 after a hurrendous 4-4 draw with Everton? United lost 1-0 and united could of lost by 5. City won that league with the last kick of a ball so that result meant a lot! Top coaches can change tactics in big games if they feel it’s the best chance their team have of getting a result.

United beat arsenal the other week but had we conceded 3 or 4 goals that would not of been completely unmerited considering the performance of DDG. Is there any chance Jose looked at how porous our defense was and felt we needed to be more tight or city would rip us apart? Exactly how worried SAF was after our 4-4 draw with Everton? I am just making a point that one game in isolation is not a fair reflection of the progress that Jose is making and that even our greatest manager reverted to defensive tactics if he felt it was our best option.

Not sure why people keep bringing Fergie up. Starting to sound like whataboutism is alive and well in here. “What about Hillary Clinton?”

Your first question though.... I don’t think the team has progressed under him no. I think our chances of success have as he buys players very smartly and has experience winning trophies. We are better to watch this season against weaker teams but against top teams we are worse than ever to watch. There was no difference from Martin O’Neills Ireland tactics and Jose’s on the weekend. It was uncanny.

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

Do you know how bad that sounds? I'm not having a dig but fans have a strong feeling over him because of two games?

No they don't fans have a bad feeling if him because they don't like him to begin with.. he has major major support at the club from the fans and the board yes maybe some games fans are unhappy with but the majority of United fans going to the stadium love him and get behind him every week.

Minority of fans wanted Ferguson gone many times too bit it doesn't matter what a minority thinks.

No one can have any issue with Jose purely on team achievements so far to date..

yes if results slip and we and up having a bad season I myself don't be happy but that don't mean I'm going to go on message boards and hope he gets sacked or go to the stadium and jeer him or the team.

Me neither. What’s your point?

Edit: It’s not just two games. It’s almost every meaningful game. And people from Manchester hate losing (or parking a bus for a draw) to Liverpool and City.

Drumpot

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

It isn't one game in isolation though, it's pretty much every game against a big side under Mourinho.

I don’t like these defensive tactics and find it hard to watch united at times but I can awknowledge their qualities and merits. Jose has made his career on them and has proven success with this style. He is building and the club is on the up.

Uniteds average finish the last 4 seasons has been 5th-4th. We look a decent shout for 2nd this season when the EPL may have half the quarter final spots of the champions league. The club is on an upward trajectory. I feel two more signings and/or more matured Rashford/martial will make for different propositions in the big games next season or maybe even later on this seasons if consistent starting 11 improve the confidence.

In short, you need some patience my man....

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

Not sure why people keep bringing Fergie up. Starting to sound like whataboutism is alive and well in here. “What about Hillary Clinton?”

Your first question though.... I don’t think the team has progressed under him no. I think our chances of success have as he buys players very smartly and has experience winning trophies. We are better to watch this season against weaker teams but against top teams we are worse than ever to watch. There was no difference from Martin O’Neills Ireland tactics and Jose’s on the weekend. It was uncanny.

I bring up SAF because you talk like Jose is the only ever top coach to park a bus in big games. You don’t think the team has progressed but our chances of success have? Ok, this is where I goto bed... I’m not even a regular but this hurts my head...

If its any consolation I doubt Jose is very happy with the performances in big games either. Now I know he sets the team up defensively but our counter attack has been very poor except in the Arsenal game, we have been extremely open in midfield even our defending of set pieces hasn't been up to the jose masterclass standard.

These are things his other teams have done much better and the areas in which I've no doubt he will improve on. We will never come out and dominate a big game possession wise like a pep team does but I do believe our performances and results will improve in them.

Even if he never wins us a league and leaves the club after 2-3 years he will leave a much better team behind then his predecessors have like he nearly always does.

Or to do it like LVG would progess

deaddonkey15

Drumpot wrote: »

I don’t like these defensive tactics and find it hard to watch united at times but I can awknowledge their qualities and merits. Jose has made his career on them and has proven success with this style. He is building and the club is on the up.

Uniteds average finish the last 4 seasons has been 5th-4th. We look a decent shout for 2nd this season when the EPL may have half the quarter final spots of the champions league. The club is on an upward trajectory. I feel two more signings and/or more matured Rashford/martial will make for different propositions in the big games next season or maybe even later on this seasons if consistent starting 11 improve the confidence.

In short, you need some patience my man....

I'm well aware of the improvements that the club has made since Mourinho was appointed and agree that it's moving in the right direction.

I don't agree with the defeatist and negative mindset and tactics that are employed against our bigger opponents though. I think it sends out a message, both to our players and our opponents, that the manager doesn't believe that we can go toe to toe with them and beat them, it fails to get the best out of our expensively purchased players, and it's quite frankly woeful and embarrassing to watch. As others have alluded to, some of the backs to the wall defending, long balls and inability to retain possession that we've seen against the likes of City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea both this season and last is no different to what we see from Martin O'Neill's Ireland whenever anyone remotely decent are playing them.

GSPfan

Drumpot wrote: »

I bring up SAF because you talk like Jose is the only ever top coach to park a bus in big games. You don’t think the team has progressed but our chances of success have? Ok, this is where I goto bed... I’m not even a regular but this hurts my head...

Don’t make things up to suit. I never compared him to anyone for his defensive tactics. I only mentioned Martin O’Neill to draw comparisons to his offensive tactics. Lump ball.

And yes the team can fail to progress and still have a better chance to win trophies. This is down to squad numbers and balance being better. The first 11 though is nothing much better than from LVG’s time apart from Pogba. When Pogba is out it falls apart. For every Rojo and Fellaini, who has improved under Jose there is a Shaw, Herrera, and Smalling who have gotten worse overall.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Don’t make things up to suit. I never compared him to anyone for his defensive tactics. I only mentioned Martin O’Neill to draw comparisons to his offensive tactics. Lump ball.

And yes the team can fail to progress and still have a better chance to win trophies. This is down to squad numbers and balance being better. The first 11 though is nothing much better than from LVG’s time apart from Pogba. When Pogba is out it falls apart. For every Rojo and Fellaini, who has improved under Jose there is a Shaw, Herrera, and Smalling who have gotten worse overall.

Shaw has never done anything at the club, I thought Herreras last season was meant to be his best at the club and well smalling is smalling and isn't a first team starter when everyone is fit.

Do you not remember the days of CBJ and Fosu Mensah at fb as LVG had left the squad so short on players

bucketybuck

GSPfan wrote: »

Pochettino is a class act though. It’s an admirable quality in my book. Some don’t care but I do.

A class act indeed. Releasing a book that criticizes players mid season is classy as hell.

I've nothing against Pochettino but you know why people like him and think he is classy? Its because he hasn't yet been under the spotlight.

He gets away with it at Spurs, they have lost to United, Arsenal and Chelsea already this season but nobody cares because its just Spurs. He wins nothing and finishes 3rd in a two horse race and it passed without barely a notice.

Put him at United with that record and he would be getting ****ed out of it. Maybe he would retain his class then, I hope he would, but until he goes through that melting pot I'll reserve judgement. See what he says and how he acts when the eyes of the world are really on him.

I see Bailly is meant to be out untill february now is there something going on there or what

bucketybuck

GSPfan wrote: »

Don’t make things up to suit. I never compared him to anyone for his defensive tactics. I only mentioned Martin O’Neill to draw comparisons to his offensive tactics. Lump ball.

And yes the team can fail to progress and still have a better chance to win trophies. This is down to squad numbers and balance being better. The first 11 though is nothing much better than from LVG’s time apart from Pogba. When Pogba is out it falls apart. For every Rojo and Fellaini, who has improved under Jose there is a Shaw, Herrera, and Smalling who have gotten worse overall.

Oh come on. Jose did nothing to Shaw that we hadn't already seen before, Herrera was fantastic under Mourinho last season and Smalling is doing every bit as well as he has ever done.

If you are now going to try and claim that squad of players isn't performing better than it was at any point in the last four years then we'll just forget about it, because by every metric going we are better than we were before Mourinho took over the club.

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Shaw has never done anything at the club, I thought Herreras last season was meant to be his best at the club and well smalling is smalling and isn't a first team starter when everyone is fit.

Do you not remember the days of CBJ and Fosu Mensah at fb as LVG had left the squad so short on players

Yeah I agree LVG made shiite of the squad. Jose has fixed that somewhat. He still doesn’t rotate enough in my view but thats why I think we are better equipt for success.

But first 11 versus first 11 for both teams in their best form and I don’t see much difference. I only see Pogba being the difference.

bucketybuck

GSPfan wrote: »

But first 11 versus first 11 for both teams in their best form and I don’t see much difference. I only see Pogba being the difference.

Ok, I'm joining the exodus from this thread. Van Gaals era of football has officially become fake news, Rooney spreading the ball wide never happened and we are no better now than we were 2 years ago. Now I finally understand the thread title.

GSPfan

bucketybuck wrote: »

A class act indeed. Releasing a book that criticizes players mid season is classy as hell.

I've nothing against Pochettino but you know why people like him and think he is classy? Its because he hasn't yet been under the spotlight.

He gets away with it at Spurs, they have lost to United, Arsenal and Chelsea already this season but nobody cares because its just Spurs. He wins nothing and finishes 3rd in a two horse race and it passed without barely a notice.

Put him at United with that record and he would be getting ****ed out of it. Maybe he would retain his class then, I hope he would, but until he goes through that melting pot I'll reserve judgement. See what he says and how he acts when the eyes of the world are really on him.

Sounds like you haven’t reserved judgement really.

You’ve kinda adopted the notion that you can’t praise anyone until they’ve proven you wrong.

It’s like someone looking at a child in a pram saying “Isn’t he an angel”?, then you come along..... “Well you can’t say that yet, he might grow up to be a príck, I’ll reserve my judgement”.

GSPfan

bucketybuck wrote: »

Ok, I'm joining the exodus from this thread. Van Gaals era of football has officially become fake news, Rooney spreading the ball wide never happened and we are no better now than we were 2 years ago. Now I finally understand the thread title.

Another Trump tactic. Use whataboutism if you want to deflect a point, then cry fake news when you don’t like the point.

Donald Trump is the master puppeteer.

Thats the FA cup team and squad I cant remember what injuries we had but looks close to LVGs best full team

1de Gea
25A Valencia
12Smalling
17Blind
5Rojo
16Carrick
8Matas
27Fellaini
10Rooney
9Martial
39Rashford


Substitutes
4Jones
18Young
20Romero
21Herrera
28Schneiderlin
35Lingard
36Darmian


Id say our first 11 now is a lot better when you include pogba, matic, bailly, Lukaku and Miki when he was on form, possibly Linderof too early to tell but has shown promise recently and the rest is pretty much the same

Chrissybhoy

Mourinho has some neck about celebrating when he ran from dugout to corner flag to celebrate with his players when Porto scored to knock united out of the CL years ago

GSPfan

For me LVG’s best team was that period around March maybe in his first season when we beat Liverpool at Anfield (Juanfield) I think and Spurs at home. Think it was the Rooney celebration where he had been knocked out by Danny Simpson! We had some very good results and performances in that period. Maybe I’m remembering wrong but we played Fellaini wide left of a middle 3.

So far Jose’s best team has been the start of this season for me.

LVG’s record against the Big 6 teams was great if I remember correctly. It was the smaller teams he struggled with. That, and being a lunatic.

GSPfan

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

Mourinho has some neck about celebrating when he ran from dugout to corner flag to celebrate with his players when Porto scored to knock united out of the CL years ago

Yeah but what about crocked Hillary?

Chrissybhoy

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah but what about crocked Hillary?

???

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

For me LVG’s best team was that period around March maybe in his first season when we beat Liverpool at Anfield (Juanfield) I think and Spurs at home. Think it was the Rooney celebration where he had been knocked out by Danny Simpson! We had some very good results and performances in that period. Maybe I’m remembering wrong but we played Fellaini wide left of a middle 3.

So far Jose’s best team has been the start of this season for me.

LVG’s record against the Big 6 teams was great if I remember correctly. It was the smaller teams he struggled with. That, and being a lunatic.

His record against the top 6 was crazy I really did want LVG to work out but boy was I glad to see him go. I liked him being a lunatic mind that dive on the sideline in the arsenal game was epic

Chrissybhoy

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

???

Hilary do you reckon she'd be any good as a left back

Chrissybhoy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hilary do you reckon she'd be any good as a left back

Don't need her young is flying in there

GSPfan

bucketybuck wrote: »

Oh come on. Jose did nothing to Shaw that we hadn't already seen before, Herrera was fantastic under Mourinho last season and Smalling is doing every bit as well as he has ever done.

If you are now going to try and claim that squad of players isn't performing better than it was at any point in the last four years then we'll just forget about it, because by every metric going we are better than we were before Mourinho took over the club.

Not true. Id say results against Big 6 are much worse. We also finished 6th last year after finishing 4th and 5th before, and this season is only half way through so wouldn’t be claiming anything yet for this season. The Europa League win covers over a lot of cracks from last year. Goals scored is better though so that’s good.

I’m giving my opinion on why I would be open to a new manager as history shows Jose’s feet get itchy after 2 years (and only if there was a good one available which I can’t see right now) but you seem to be obsessed with comparisons to LVG.

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

His record against the top 6 was crazy I really did want LVG to work out but boy was I glad to see him go. I liked him being a lunatic mind that dive on the sideline in the arsenal game was epic

I was sick of him by the end. He lost the plot big time after first season. The players were not up for it either.

Cantona's Collars

Just saw on the Sky sports app that MUTV is free to air until the 18th December.

adox

AstraDave. Set em up. I’m joining you.

Adamocovic

With all the posters leaving the thread soon only I will remain! My reign of terror will be glorious!

Phil Jones daily pictures, updates, weekly videos and just general appreciation!

bangkok

Adamocovic wrote: »

With all the posters leaving the thread soon only I will remain! My reign of terror will be glorious!

Phil Jones daily pictures, updates, weekly videos and just general appreciation!

Im not going anywhere

jayo26

I'll stay




I'LL MAKE THE SUPERTHREAD GREAT AGAIN....

Adamocovic

Sorry if the press conference has been discussed already.

Think main points I saw from it were:
Jones- Fit to start
Rojo- A doubt
Bailly- Out until next year

Also there were loads of questions regarding the bust-up versus City which you'd expect. José walked out unimpressed by it.

"Bye, bye" he said as he went to leave the room.
"You don't like Bournemouth, eh? You don't respect them? You don't think they are a team capable of coming to Old Trafford and doing well? No respect for Eddie Howe? No respect for the players?"

Mitch Connor

What annoys me about the bust up is the reaction from United in getting it to that point.

Mourinho barging into the dressing room and having an argument is what really started it - if City were 'over' celebrating, meh, so what? Sure the United players might find it galling but...to go argue over it?

Mourinho should have been telling the players to listen to it. To remember it. To be angered by it. But most of all, to use it as fuel to drive the team on to better things. So that as soon as possible it will be United on top, United celebrating, United rubbing their noses in it.

S.M.B.

Was Bailly rushed back from his previous injury or is his current injury complexity unrelated?

Cookiemunster

S.M.B. wrote: »

Was Bailly rushed back from his previous injury or is his current injury complexity unrelated?

Didn't he get injured on international duty again?

jayo26

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Didn't he get injured on international duty again?

#Joseout

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What annoys me about the bust up is the reaction from United in getting it to that point.

Mourinho barging into the dressing room and having an argument is what really started it - if City were 'over' celebrating, meh, so what? Sure the United players might find it galling but...to go argue over it?

Mourinho should have been telling the players to listen to it. To remember it. To be angered by it. But most of all, to use it as fuel to drive the team on to better things. So that as soon as possible it will be United on top, United celebrating, United rubbing their noses in it.

He didnt barge in, he was going down to do tv interview, dressing room door was open and he told them to relax. Someone threw milk out then and hit a female member of staff. Lukaku then threw a bottle hit arteta on the face.

Drumpot

GSPfan wrote: »

Not true. Id say results against Big 6 are much worse. We also finished 6th last year after finishing 4th and 5th before, and this season is only half way through so wouldn’t be claiming anything yet for this season. The Europa League win covers over a lot of cracks from last year. Goals scored is better though so that’s good.

I’m giving my opinion on why I would be open to a new manager as history shows Jose’s feet get itchy after 2 years (and only if there was a good one available which I can’t see right now) but you seem to be obsessed with comparisons to LVG.

What exactly did you expect last season? What exactly do you expect this season?

You are quoting LVGs top 6 record but his record over 38 games was just not good enough. Now you have an issue that will most likely mean the exact opposite, with a better league standing!

I don’t think united have to be counter attacking against top sides but I understand why he does it. I don’t like him employing these tactics but I feel that for whatever reason he has felt his team (Uniteds form, opponents form, missing players etc) would be better served with holding tactics in certain games this season. Losing to Chelsea away and drawing at Anfield isn’t a disaster any season.

I don’t disagree at all with your comments on giving the initiative to rivals by letting them dominate and sitting back. Also I don’t disagree that this gives a huge psychological advantage to our rivals. As I said I remember SAF doing it in vital games in the past and my view was that he was pretty much conceding that united were inferior to their rivals.

But, we have to trust that the manager has good reason for employing these tactics. He is one of the best managers of his generation, just because it’s boring to watch does not mean it’s not effective or correct under whatever circumstances there are to justify this strategy. Everybody outside of the dressing room is a n armchair manager with zero insight into what’s going on. Gary Neville knows the defensive tactic hands the initiative to rivals because he has played that way for SAF.

I think Jose genuinely thought that the way we setup was our best chance. But I think the problem was that the players were lacking confidence and even belief in the first half. Maybe it was the tactics or maybe they just aren’t quite ready to step up and challenge for top honors.

Unlike the last 4 years , there is a clear upward trend the club is taking. Whether we like the tactics or not, the club is going up the table, progressing in Europe and has a stronger squad then it had 2 seasons ago. You can’t ignore Jose’s role in that, particularly in the players that have been signed. He has been integral at building this squad , picking “our tactics against top teams” as a gripe is fine, but it doesn’t mean you get to ignore Everything else positive about his tenure at the club.

I remember when united won the league cup against Wigan. It was the season Ruud was dropped for Saha. You could see that the club was back on the up again, with ronaldo and Rooney getting better and better. It just looked like SAF was on the verge of bringing the good years back and I feel the same with Jose. Rashford and Martial can be our Rooney and Ronaldo. I genuinely believe one more summer transfer success will mean we will be pushing much harder next season.

Given where the club has gone and come from over the last 4 years I don’t get the fascination with sporadic defensive tactics in top games. That’s not to say I enjoyed the city or Liverpool games, but taking everything into account I think Jose has done a marvelous job..

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

He didnt barge in, he was going down to do tv interview, dressing room door was open and he told them to relax. Someone threw milk out then and hit a female member of staff. Lukaku then threw a bottle hit arteta on the face.

I'm not doubting your account of it but how the fuk do we actually know this?

Both clubs have said zero the only account of it I seen were the rags doing up a step by step diagram of what could of happened.

Cookiemunster

jayo26 wrote: »

I'm not doubting your account of it but how the fuk do we actually know this?

Both clubs have said zero the only account of it I seen were the rags doing up a step by step diagram of what could of happened.

Speaking of which. This is the best version of what actually happened
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/exclusive-the-real-real-story-behind-the-manchester-derby-brawl-152784