Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

I believe that was Bangkok, who frequently went on about Jose "flirting" with PSG. You could ask him about it but I would get the goalposts chained down first.

No it wasnt me... but sure throw my name out there. You will get the usual few thanks

bucketybuck

bangkok wrote: »

No it wasnt me... but sure throw my name out there. You will get the usual few thanks

Yeah, I really hoover up those "thanks" don't I.

paulbok

Turtwig wrote: »

Jose got a significant extension with Real Madrid - within about half a year he left Madrid.
Jose got a significant extension at Chelsea - within about half year later he Chelsea.

These days extensions only mean the person who signed them get's more money if they are sacked earlier. Or, the club get's more money if the player is bought early. That's pretty much it sadly.

Pep, Jose, Klopp, De Bruyne, De Gea, whomever, signing extensions means absolutely nothing for their protracted tenure at a club. Many clubs merely use extensions, particularly player ones, as a means to bump up the overall sale value of the player. If there is a release clause in operation this is even more vitally important.

Liam McPoyle

Turtwig wrote: »

Jose got a significant extension with Real Madrid - within about half a year he left Madrid.
Jose got a significant extension at Chelsea - within about half year later he Chelsea.

These days extensions only mean the person who signed them get's more money if they are sacked earlier. Or, the club get's more money if the player is bought early. That's pretty much it sadly.

Pep, Jose, Klopp, De Bruyne, De Gea, whomever, signing extensions means absolutely nothing for their protracted tenure at a club. Many clubs merely use extensions, particularly player ones, as a means to bump up the overall sale value of the player. If there is a release clause in operation this is even more vitally important.

The point I was making is that Chelsea is a shyt show of a club when it comes to managers and now that you mention them, so is Madrid.

This fact is always lost on those that try to use Joses short stints in jobs as a stick to beat him with.

Turtwig

Business Cat wrote: »

The point I was making is that Chelsea is a shyt show of a club when it comes to managers and now that you mention them, so is Madrid.

This fact is always lost on those that try to use Joses short stints in jobs as a stick to beat him with.

There's not one club today that isn't short term manager focused. That's the nature of things nowadays. These clubs sacked Jose because he imploded spectacularly.Things at Madrid were so farcical that I'm surpised the blue side of Manchester, or the so called anti mourinho media hasn't made a documentary about it. I didn't follow things in Chelsea as closely so can't comment on what exactly happened there. It did appear eerily similar.

Lord TSC

Turtwig wrote: »

There's not one club today that isn't short term manager focused. That's the nature of things nowadays. These clubs sacked Jose because he imploded spectacularly.Things at Madrid were so farcical that I'm surpised the blue side of Manchester, or the so called anti mourinho media hasn't made a documentary about it. I didn't follow things in Chelsea as closely so can't comment on what exactly happened there. It did appear eerily similar.

Same thing happened Jose at Chelsea as happens every manager at Chelsea, as is happening Conte right now.

New manager comes in
New manager gets a few of his own signings.
New manager wins league
Board refuses to give the manager funds to continue building, adopting a "You did it once with them, do it again" mentality
Old players stop playing for the manager
New manager gets sacked when Chelsea do poorly.

They run in a very obvious cycle. Its funny the way some fans ignore that, and instead try to present Jose's tenures there out of context.

Same with Real; they are a **** show when it comes to managers, but some people are so desperate to create the narrative of Jose implosions, they ignore the context of the fact every manager implodes at those two clubs.

When it happens over and over, to different managers each time, one can stop looking to place the blame on managers, and start looking at how the clubs are run instead....

Schwanz

So Mourinho like always before will walk away with a huge payoff before his time is up.

The man is a genius.

bucketybuck

Lord TSC wrote: »

Same with Real; they are a **** show when it comes to managers,

I used to "support" Madrid, insomuch as they were my Spanish team. Those days are long gone after one too many examples of how toxic and ungrateful their fanbase is, but I have to say if they sack Zidane my contempt for that lot will fall to new depths.

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

I used to "support" Madrid, insomuch as they were my Spanish team. Those days are long gone after one too many examples of how toxic and ungrateful their fanbase is, but I have to say if they sack Zidane my contempt for that lot will fall to new depths.

They were always like that. If psg knock real out i think zidane will be sacked before season is over

wanderer100

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Some more

https://twitter.com/Mourinholic/status/956508100726542339

Imagine the team celebrating like that after a goal:P

Trigger

https://twitter.com/the_manutd_blog/status/956630081841057792

wanderer100

https://twitter.com/MUFCScoop/status/956631246456721408

PhuckHugh

Dirty Sanchez

bucketybuck

For a guy that is only there for the money Sanchez seems to be rather taken with the club? Jerseys for the dogs? Must be on commission for shirt sales.

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

No I don't think it was Bangkok I'm not 100 percent but think it was a part time poster.

Twas meeeeeeeeeeee!

It’s only January though so wouldn’t be paying out on bets just yet. Although it looks a hell of a lot better than it did when he was flirting with PSG and moaning about transfers. Guess it worked, as he has got a top quality signing and more money.

I’m happy he’s done it though as there is no negatives that I can see.

fatherted1969

Don't see it happening with DDG to Madrid. The problems they'll need to correct are way further up the field. Would have to spunk a bag of money they'll need for elsewhere in the team.

v3ttel

castletownman wrote: »

Simply lovleh.

Hi Max!

TheDoc wrote: »

That's totally fine and I totally get the point you are making.

As I said before though, when it comes to the contentious issues, myths or realities about Mourinho, is there really any point? Depending on what side of the arguement you fall on, you can put forward a coherant and genuine point of view that supports your stance, but results in it just being a case of everyone sticking with their opposing views.

MY over arching point regarding Mourinho is that it seems to be well documented and quoted from players who played for him, that he simply doesn't do any coaching or training with offensive players. He uses man management tactics which is fine, but provides or performs no actual coaching or development.

So the players that flourish do so on their own ability and talent, while those that fell by the wayside, yet flourished elsewhere, are the stains against his coaching ability.

And that style of management or coaching can be fine also, but for me I think there needs to be acceptance that if a manager/coach, doesn't do work in a specific area of the team, and the respective players are not delivering, therefore the manager not getting the best out of them, he needs to be held accountable, and that simply leads to an explanation of it being a weakness.

I don't know why it gets so prickly with people. There is no perfect manager operating in world football, there is no perfect combination of coach/manager hybrid. All have strengths and all have weaknesses.

I just find it odd that managers don't employ or take on board an attacking coach, to work on that area. As happens with other style of coaches.

Interesting, I haven't read that about not giving any attacking players direction or coaching. Regardless of the method, the output/results don't tally with the perception. In many cases, it shows exactly the opposite.

It's probably just a result of the general world of BS that accompany so many successful teams & people. People are always ready to throw muck as them to see what sticks.

I just find it a bit curious that people seem to be influenced so much by rag opinion, even when all the evidence says the opposite. I think all the points I had there about his previous teams were valid and no manager is going to perfect with every attacking player in his career. It doesn't mean he should develop an unwarranted rep.

TheDoc wrote: »

****....

MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

Well played, I actually LOLed at this.

Turtwig

Lord TSC wrote: »

Same thing happened Jose at Chelsea as happens every manager at Chelsea, as is happening Conte right now.

New manager comes in
New manager gets a few of his own signings.
New manager wins league
Board refuses to give the manager funds to continue building, adopting a "You did it once with them, do it again" mentality
Old players stop playing for the manager
New manager gets sacked when Chelsea do poorly.

They run in a very obvious cycle. Its funny the way some fans ignore that, and instead try to present Jose's tenures there out of context.

Same with Real; they are a **** show when it comes to managers, but some people are so desperate to create the narrative of Jose implosions, they ignore the context of the fact every manager implodes at those two clubs.

When it happens over and over, to different managers each time, one can stop looking to place the blame on managers, and start looking at how the clubs are run instead....

Not presenting Jose's tenures out of context at all. His squads implodes. Real certainly did and by all account it definitely looks like Chelsea's did. His style of management inevitably leads to that and will most likely with United too. The key thing is that he get's United back to their pinnacle first. That's all that should matter from a United perspective. I'm sure United were aware of this too when they signed him.

There's a world of difference between how Carlo Ancelloti left Madrid and the farce* at Madrid that was Jose's final season.

Many boards of clubs are inevitably conservative after winning titles but there's a huge difference in how coaches, behave and exit any club. Jose fosters toxicity at all levels. It's almost never a question of if, but when.

*Not talking about results per se

bucketybuck

Turtwig wrote: »

Many boards of clubs are inevitably conservative after winning titles but there's a huge difference in how coaches, behave and exit any club. Jose fosters toxicity at all levels. It's almost never a question of if, but when.

Not to get all "more than a club" but you seem to have totally dismissed one factor.

United are a very different club to both Chelsea and Madrid.

bangkok

Still cant believe it.... alexis ****ing sanchez!!!

jayo26

GSPfan wrote: »

Twas meeeeeeeeeeee!

It’s only January though so wouldn’t be paying out on bets just yet. Although it looks a hell of a lot better than it did when he was flirting with PSG and moaning about transfers. Guess it worked, as he has got a top quality signing and more money.

I’m happy he’s done it though as there is no negatives that I can see.

Yes was thinking it was you bit didn't want to call you out haha.

He wasn't moaning over transfers he was responding to a question but we wont go into that all happy days.

Turtwig

bucketybuck wrote: »

Not to get all "more than a club" but you seem to have totally dismissed one factor.

United are a very different club to both Chelsea and Madrid.

Under Fergie maybe? But not so much now. Regardless, the point being about Jose was that the club is actually the least significant factor. It's just his style. Players inevitably get fatigued from it and divisions occur.

yabadabado

TheDoc wrote: »

MY over arching point regarding Mourinho is that it seems to be well documented and quoted from players who played for him, that he simply doesn't do any coaching or training with offensive players. He uses man management tactics which is fine, but provides or performs no actual coaching or development.

Any more info on this?

Whatsisname

I’m really really enjoying Sanchez dogs.

bucketybuck

Turtwig wrote: »

Under Fergie maybe? But not so much now. Regardless, the point being about Jose was that the club is actually the least significant factor. It's just his style. Players inevitably get fatigued from it and divisions occur.

No, even now. When you look at the time Moyes and Van Gaal were given, and both the support and lack of interference afforded Mourniho its clear that United still run on a different culture to Madrid or Chelsea.

Divisions occur in toxic environments, and toxic environments develop in unstable situations. Unstable, such as a club with owners who interfere constantly and dictate to the managers. In clubs like that a few players with an axe to grind can indeed cause trouble, whereas in clubs like United where the manager is supported fully you are infinitely less likely to hear of such problems.

Chelsea and Madrid. Thats where all the Mourinho myths come from, nobody mentions the fantastic relationships he had with players at Porto and Inter, nobody talks about the jobs he did there, its all player unrest and trouble brewing at noted circus's Chelsea and Madrid. I would simply suggest that United offer a very different environment to those two.

bangkok

Whatsisname wrote: »

I’m really really enjoying Sanchez dogs.

Ah lad you need to get out more!!

Whatsisname

Whatsisname wrote: »

I’m really really enjoying Sanchez dogs.

Careful now, you're putting yourself out on a limb expressing enjoyment in here :pac:

EDIT: Cheers for proving the point very quickly bangkok!

bangkok wrote:

Ah lad you need to get out more!!

pjohnson

We need a rule to have daily Atom & Humber they are adorable.

Who cant love them.

jayo26

Poor mata will be feeling neglected at this rate.

Whatsisname

bangkok wrote: »

Ah lad you need to get out more!!

If it involves seeing Atom and Humber in the flesh, then I’m up for it :pac:

ericzeking

bucketybuck wrote: »

For a guy that is only there for the money Sanchez seems to be rather taken with the club? Jerseys for the dogs? Must be on commission for shirt sales.

He probably does stand to gain financially from Insta-likes and follows though...

jayo26

jayo26 wrote: »

Poor mata will be feeling neglected at this rate.

He went off to that Davos Forum a couple of days ago and everything was just hunky-dory for him at Old Trafford.

Now he's gonna come back to see Herrera and DDG starstruck and hanging out of Sanchez. Juan's seat in the canteen will be taken by the new cheeky smile on the block.

Juan will then think 'Well I will go online, at least my fans around the world will comfort me' only to see that all his fans have fúcked off and are fawning over some dogs. It won't be long before this song starts playing over and over in his mind...

Logical conclusion; Juan Mata is going to buy some polar bear cubs. That's an exclusive, you heard it here first.

Lord TSC

So it seems as if on the day Sanchez was moving to United, a random drugs test was scheduled and, as such, missed by the player. Though I think UEFA are saying it wasn't one of their drug testers, and I'd imagine it's Arsenal who'd get the slap on the wrist for not warning them that Sanchez was not available on that day.

paulbok

Deleted User wrote: »

He went off to that Davos Forum a couple of days ago and everything was just hunky-dory for him at Old Trafford.

Now he's gonna come back to see Herrera and DDG starstruck and hanging out of Sanchez. Juan's seat in the canteen will be taken by the new cheeky smile on the block.

Juan will then think 'Well I will go online, at least my fans around the world will comfort me' only to see that all his fans have fúcked off and are fawning over some dogs. It won't be long before this song starts playing over and over in his mind...

Logical conclusion; Juan Mata is going to buy some polar bear cubs. That's an exclusive, you heard it here first.

Will they be cub tied?



I'll get my coat

Jayop

TheDoc wrote: »

I didn't think it was dreadful. He referenced the Pogba tabloid story as a lead into explaining why City had issues with the wage demands, which was something widely reported and this could be the scenario City wanted to avoid, with a squad leading the title which has good spirit and harmony. I think that's a fair point.

He quoted Mourinho as saying at a time (which was true) that maybe Martials greatest strength is coming off the bench in the final phase of the game, and taking advantage of tired defenders and opposition.

He did tunnel in on the ability of him playing on the left or centrally and didn't mention the right, but in fairness, nobody in punditry, commentary,journalism or football analysis has mentioned him playing from the right. Totally football, who literally have two Serie A experts, talked of his great form for Udinese being of the left and operating centrally at times. So I'd forgive him for that.

Pogba - he referenced the tabloids then a minute later proceeded to talk as if those tabloid stories were true. It's a few days since I listened but the quote was almost exactly "and as you can see from the unrest with pogba that it's already causing rifts in the dressing room". Utter nonsense.

Martial - He referenced the interview but failed to acknowledge that that's clearly not what's happening now given Martial starts every game.

Sanchez - I'm a fan with a FT job that's not in journalism and I know that Sanchez can play on the right. Just because other journalists and pundits are crap doesn't mean I should give another one a pass when they are speaking with authority on something they know nothing about quite clearly.

GSPfan wrote: »

Twas meeeeeeeeeeee!

It’s only January though so wouldn’t be paying out on bets just yet. Although it looks a hell of a lot better than it did when he was flirting with PSG and moaning about transfers. Guess it worked, as he has got a top quality signing and more money.

I’m happy he’s done it though as there is no negatives that I can see.

I seen someone liked this post and before I clicked view I knew who it was.

#2CanPlayThatGame

Whatsisname wrote: »

I’m really really enjoying Sanchez dogs.

Loving them.

jayo26 wrote: »

Poor mata will be feeling neglected at this rate.

Never

Lord TSC

Jose says no more business this window.

jayo26

Lord TSC wrote: »

Jose says no more business this window.

He having a dig at Woodward again then looking for more players.

Trigger

Moura off to Spurs for 25m euro, were we not givemin 40m as the price.. mental difference in 2 weeks

RobertKK

Watching Question Time on BBC1 and in a matter of 1 minute Alexis Sanchez wages went from £500,000 a week to £650,000 a week.
The question asked if it was appropriate.
All on the panel bar one said it was not, one said it was given the amount of tax the country will get :pac:

scudzilla

RobertKK wrote: »

Watching Question Time on BBC1 and in a matter of 1 minute Alexis Sanchez wages went from £500,000 a week to £650,000 a week.
The question asked if it was appropriate.
All on the panel bar one said it was not, one said it was given the amount of tax the country will get :pac:

50% tax rate for players on that dosh, so at 500k a week thats 13million a year tax from one person, Jaysus, look at it this way

Dole is UK is 73quid a week, that's 3,800 per year

Our Alexis is paying the dole of 3,400 scousers :pac::pac::pac:

StringerBell

Turtwig wrote: »

Not presenting Jose's tenures out of context at all. His squads implodes. Real certainly did and by all account it definitely looks like Chelsea's did. His style of management inevitably leads to that and will most likely with United too. The key thing is that he get's United back to their pinnacle first. That's all that should matter from a United perspective. I'm sure United were aware of this too when they signed him.

There's a world of difference between how Carlo Ancelloti left Madrid and the farce* at Madrid that was Jose's final season.

Many boards of clubs are inevitably conservative after winning titles but there's a huge difference in how coaches, behave and exit any club. Jose fosters toxicity at all levels. It's almost never a question of if, but when.

*Not talking about results per se

Strangely enough I don't actually remember his Porto squad imploding, or his Chelsea one first time around, or his Inter one for that matter................................how odd.

Jayop

Just caught the first part of the debate tonight. Probably the most even handed assessment of where United are and will be I've seen or heard in ages. Fecking Merson and Upson making the most sense. What's the world come to.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

That mata 1% of his salary is a brilliant idea, pity only a few footballers have signed up to it.

Something else that bugs me, not one single footballer has said anything about the slaves being used to build the stadiums in qatar. Its a disgrace whats going on there right now

Just saw this now bangkok and it reminded me of something I heard on Off The Ball recently. A couple of weeks ago they were talking specifically about Juan Mata and Common Goal, and they addressed the point you made above.

According to Kilbane, footballers and their charity donations can be a very private thing. For every Juan Mata we do hear about, there's a pro-footballer who donates generously but just doesn't choose to broadcast it or publicise it for whatever reasons. Mata doesn't have that luxury of course since he is trying to organise a very public movement with Common Goal.

It makes sense to us comparatively low-earners that these mega-paid individuals could at the least donate 1% of their vast annual earnings. However, as good as Mata's intentions are, there are players who feel passionately about their own charities and projects and are already donating to them regularly. It's not that 1% is too much for them, or that Common Goal isn't a good cause, it's just that they are walking their own path with charity. After listening to that OTB conversation, I did understand a bit better why not everyone is signing up for Common Goal so quickly.

If Mata does manage to sign up a host of players and give his movement some serious momentum, well and good, especially if those players haven't already been donating to charity. I think it's great that he's doing it in the first place. He sees the inequality in the world, the silly money he gets paid for kicking a ball on TV, and is genuinely uncomfortable with it all and wants to change something.

As for the rest of your post about Qatar, I can't blame the footballers too much. It would take some wave of them to band together and actually manage to do something positive about Qatar at this late stage. How would they even begin coordinating it?

Too much money has changed hands, too much blood has been spilled, this 2022 shít-show will go ahead barring a complete collapse of the Middle-East or the outbreak of WW3. The sponsors have the real power there, not the players. Short of a huge global movement of players refusing to partake in Qatar '22, there's nothing the players can do.

And let's face it, what pro-footballer, or group of them, is going to start the 'UEFA are the devil, let's not play in Qatar' movement? They'd wanna have some cojones to be the first to start that one. It would be a serious 'You go first, we're right behind you...honest' kind of limb those players would be putting themselves out on.

A very dark stain on the human race is that World Cup in Qatar. Whatever about players not banding together to voice concerns about it, that's one thing, however the players actively taking huge payments to promote it is another thing. For instance, we could do with a few more Mata-type personalities in the game rather than Neymars.

Hoards of poor people being exploited, dying so that a few rich men can build their lavish structures and host their huge event and get even richer. Technology aside, in certain parts of the world we really haven't come that far from the days of the Pharaohs in Egypt or of the Emperors in Rome. That might sound dramatic, but when you look at the finer details of what it takes to produce Qatar 2022, it ain't that dramatic unfortunately. We're just a lot better at hiding the devastation and the human toll now, and distracting from it.

Further reading (Like you need more at this stage :pac:)...

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/sep/27/thousands-qatar-world-cup-workers-life-threatening-heat

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatars-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/11/qatar-world-cup-bosses-offer-no-explanation-for-british-worker-death-zac-cox

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33019838

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/27/a-body-count-in-qatar-illustrates-the-consequences-of-fifa-corruption/?utm_term=.ad2250a8d31f

For something more light-hearted and on-topic, here's a photo I haven't seen posted in here yet. It's a pic from Jose's contract extension renewal, or as I like to call it, 'The lads still wetting themselves about Sanchez'...

Lord TSC

astradave wrote: »

Moura off to Spurs for 25m euro, were we not givemin 40m as the price.. mental difference in 2 weeks

Meh, it's not that shocking, 40m could have been an opening price made to a richer club when there was competition for the player.

2 weeks on, we've signed Sanchez so Spurs looks to be the only club in for him now. They don't have the same resources, and so the price drops naturally as Spurs have a bette negotiation position. And PSG have less time to find a better deal.

ebbsy

Lord TSC wrote: »

So it seems as if on the day Sanchez was moving to United, a random drugs test was scheduled and, as such, missed by the player. Though I think UEFA are saying it wasn't one of their drug testers, and I'd imagine it's Arsenal who'd get the slap on the wrist for not warning them that Sanchez was not available on that day.

Seems to be a common amongst Utd players, missing drugs tests.

jayo26

ebbsy wrote: »

Seems to be a common amongst Utd players, missing drugs tests.

Yep your dead right always happens that's why United have been investigated and fined for missing 3 drugs tests in a year....... Oh wait.

duffman13

ebbsy wrote: »

Seems to be a common amongst Utd players, missing drugs tests.

It's give that an E for effort and file it under must try harder. Also to be pedantic here, he was an Arsenal player at the time

Trigger

ebbsy wrote: »

Seems to be a common amongst Utd players, missing drugs tests.

He was still registered as an Arsenal player at the time, so it looks as though they will be fined for failing to update the autourities of his whereabouts..

1/10 must try harder

hufpc8w3adnk65

ebbsy wrote: »

Seems to be a common amongst Utd players, missing drugs tests.

:pac: