Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/894331/Man-Utd-news-Paul-Pogba-Jose-Mourinho-training-Premier-League

He was talking about football in general not just Jose but ignore that.

And even if it was directed at Jose imagine a midfielder saying he didn't like tactics and defensive training he would be better off playing five a side if that's the case.

Cookiemunster

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

To be honest a cups a cup don't turn any down but we shouldn't have to settle for the smaller ones with the players we have and money where spending. Still a bit off though unfortunately.

I know I sound like a broken record at this stage but, money spent does not equal quality.
LVG spent a fortune on rubbish and most of them (the ones who haven't already been shipped out) were playing last night. There's a reason that there were 7 players from SAFs era playing last Sunday.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/894331/Man-Utd-news-Paul-Pogba-Jose-Mourinho-training-Premier-League

Did you even read that fully ffs..

Did you conveniently forget this, it’s also reporting on a MEN article

It is said he hates the tactical side of training.

Mourinho often makes his players work on the defensive side of their game.

Pogba, as a showboater however, supposedly finds such work tedious.

MEN say he also hates drills where ballwork is not involved.

The midfielder appeared to confirm his hate of such things in an interview last month.

"My favourite part is the game at the end of the session," he told Football Focus.

Attacking player likes attacking drills in training,shocker

Cookiemunster

bangkok wrote: »

But martial is a striker asked to do a wingers job. Yoy need to give certain players freedom like mkhitarayan.

We are heavily linked with ozil, do you ever see him track back?? No

Cant imagine griezemann would be happy either if he came if had to chase back

You've obviously never seen Atletico play, if you think that Simeone allows any of his players away with not doing their defensive duties.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

But martial is a striker asked to do a wingers job. Yoy need to give certain players freedom like mkhitarayan.

We are heavily linked with ozil, do you ever see him track back?? No

Cant imagine griezemann would be happy either if he came if had to chase back

Have you ever watched Atleti play? Definitely no judging by that comment..

Ozil tracks back plenty with Arsenal.

Martial was always more comfortable playing from a wide position, where he can get on the ball and run at players and cut inside onto his good foot.

What freedom should you be giving players when they don’t have the ball.. the team should be defending as a Unit.. going forward there is a hell of a lot of freedom as you can see that..

If you want every attacking player to have no defensive duties that’s means we are going to be defending with 5 players against probably 8/9 and we will ship a duck load of goals.. that’s just silly

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

Did you even read that fully ffs..

Did you conveniently forget this, it’s also reporting on a MEN article



Attacking player likes attacking drills in training,shocker

When you have a squad of quality players, play to their strenghts and not weakness.

Sometimes you can go over board on tactics and players become disinterested. Liverpool away was a prime example of that. Last night we looked slow, lethargic etc, sometimes you just need to let the players out and do their thing.

A classic line from fergie before they played spurs.."lads its ****ing spurs" and that was it. Went out and won easily

secman

"It's all the players fault don't you know" seems to be a bit over the top... at what stage do you look at the manager and ponder ? He even admitted it last night in his post match interview that players are not playing for him ?

Drumpot

I wonder how much of the issues of the club are psychological from a pressure point of view? The expectation of the club is massive. City and Chelsea still don’t really have legacy cultures or expectations, just financially supercharged startegys that has yielded success. United are clearly on an upward curve and yet there is huge outcry about the quality or type of football being played. I don’t recall these kinds of outcry’s by the fans of Chelsea or city over the years.

We could point to Real Madrid but generally they are playing canon fodder for the majority of the season and there are only 2 teams capable of really challenging every season. They also have had success which means their players haven’t got a significant monkey on their back like United. Winning the Europa and league cup was dismissed by some as not good enough. (Not me mind you!).

I personally think united are sort of like City just before they won the league. Only in the last 3-4 seasons has the club employed a “buy big obvious players” policy and just like city it can take a few seasons for that strategy to work.

I’ve noticed it in a few games where United look like they are going to cruise it and something happens (concede goal or don’t finish off game) that changes the momentum. Nobody seems to be able to stand up and calm things down. Jose’s Chelsea were supeme at closing out games and keeping cool heads (unless playing Barca!) but I don’t get that feeling from this squad.

I personally have an issue with our defense. The conceded statistics are more thanks to our defensive tactics and brilliance of DDG then the collective or individual talent of our defenders. You can’t complain about our defensive tactics and not awknowledge that it’s a big reason for these impressive defensive stats!

I think winning the next league or CL is imperative over the next 3 years. The longer the club doesn’t win the greater the pressure on the players and the manager. I’ve seen people say “sure united can get any manager” suggesting they should replace Jose. What manager should they get? Who would come into united today, have them playing better football and has the experience with succes and a top club? You can’t just create an imaginary manager in your head and say “this manager will do better”. On paper there is nobody better then Jose realistically available. 4 months ago people weren’t fawning over Guardiola after his first season (and relative failure at Bayern), it’s amazing how a few months can show how fickle this sport is. Reminds me how after 2 months at Chelsea , Conte was struggling and calls for him to be sacked!

Trigger

secman wrote: »

"It's all the players fault don't you know" seems to be a bit over the top... at what stage do you look at the manager and ponder ? He even admitted it last night in his post match interview that players are not playing for him ?

Yeah it’s definitely time to change manager.. who do you think we should realistically bring in, and why?

pjohnson

Mkhitaryan hopefully wont be seen in a United Jersey again didnt impress in the slightest.

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

Have you ever watched Atleti play? Definitely no judging by that comment..

Ozil tracks back plenty with Arsenal.

Martial was always more comfortable playing from a wide position, where he can get on the ball and run at players and cut inside onto his good foot.

What freedom should you be giving players when they don’t have the ball.. the team should be defending as a Unit.. going forward there is a hell of a lot of freedom as you can see that..

If you want every attacking player to have no defensive duties that’s means we are going to be defending with 5 players against probably 8/9 and we will ship a duck load of goals.. that’s just silly

Did i say every attacking player?? No.

"Why buy a porsche and drive it like a lada"

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Did i say every attacking player?? No.

"Why buy a porsche and drive it like a lada"

You are advocating for mata, Pogba, Mkhi, martial(no doubt Rashford and Lukaku) to have less defensive duties.. so who is going to do the bloody defensive duties???

ericzeking

There was a step change in our form after the Liverpool game where we basically bent over to have our bottoms smacked.

There was a message sent to the players in that game, a message from the manager as to what he thought of their abilities, is it any wonder they have been muck since?

Yes we scored loads of goals against the smaller teams earlier in the season but when it came down to it, against a big rival, the manager sent the message to the players that all they were capable of was funnelling back and clearing the ball for fear of making a mistake.
And now we are where we are, lethargic and playing without confidence, schooled by City at OT, dropping back and hanging on against West Brom, struggling to hit the target against Bristol City.

Mourinho had a chance earlier this season, he had a team that was flying but then he went back to type and did what he always does...there aint no amount of transfers or clear outs that will fix the managers outlook. "hey Johnny, don't you dare make a mistake, these guys are better than you"

Every time someone mentions JM being defensive, he/she gets the p!ss taken out of them, "most goals, second in the league...."

We are not defensive for the most part but at key points, we are, and that really matters.

And like it is fine to drop players back and hang on to a lead against a rival for the last 10 minutes or whatever, that is necessary, but we set out our stall from the outset in these games and it sends a massive message.

Are we that small time? LVG used to batter his direct rivals like (he just couldn't break down Burnley) so the players are capable of it.

With the money spent and the players available, we are capable of an awful lot more than what we are seeing.

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

You are advocating for mata, Pogba, Mkhi, martial(no doubt Rashford and Lukaku) to have less defensive duties.. so who is going to do the bloody defensive duties???

No specifics

bucketybuck

MagicIRL wrote: »

I thought he was completely isolated by a ****e McTominay

Hopefully that puts to bed any talk of relying on McTominay in the near future, it was strange to see people talking about him as a regular first team player, about jettisoning Herrera and Felliani and playing McTominay alongside Pogba and Matic.

He is just a kid with a few games under his belt and was never the answer to any of our problems. We need to address those positions properly and leave him to continue developing.

Lord TSC

Peopleinterpretations of that Pool game always baffles me.

Do you really think Jose went "u guys sux, so just hoof it away!".

The plan was clearly to hit Pool on the break, which is absolutely how you play against a high press team like Pool. Tactically, I'd have had zero problems with that game. There was an utter failure from the players to hit a team on the break though, something we've seems consistently this season. Other than Pogba, we don't have players to launch a counter attack, while Our attacking players never seem to carry out the attacks when the passes come off.

Last night showed that again, when Rashford and Lukaku got two on two and instead of passing to Lukaku who was free to run at the keeper, Rashford squanders it completly.

To go back to the Pool game, it's tactically naive to go to Anfield and go all out attack. That plays right into Klopp's hands and the majority of teams who do that get slaughtered cause of their pace.

How Soon Is Now

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I know I sound like a broken record at this stage but, money spent does not equal quality.
LVG spent a fortune on rubbish and most of them (the ones who haven't already been shipped out) were playing last night. There's a reason that there were 7 players from SAFs era playing last Sunday.

True that!
You would think the vast majority of our players would be at a different level then Bristol though!

Obviously it meant more to them on the night.

adox

secman wrote: »

"It's all the players fault don't you know" seems to be a bit over the top... at what stage do you look at the manager and ponder ? He even admitted it last night in his post match interview that players are not playing for him ?

He didnt saying players werent playing for him per say. He said some looked like they didnt want to be there. Hopefully they will be out the door in the next two windows.

Also no one is saying that Jose has been faultless since he took over but the club are on an upward trajectory again after a few seasons of utter tosh. Some people seem to conveniently forget the starting point for Jose and where the club were at when he took over.

Evidence shows that it is largely down to a lot of the players. They have failed to perform under Van Gaal(most of his signings) and now Jose. Jose has brought in what, half a dozen players? He has us (despite the narrative on here)scoring goals for fun and the co-best defense in the league.

Its obvious(to me at least)that Jose needs at least another couple of windows to shape the squad so it is his own. Unfortunately with the hugely inflated fees its impossible to assemble the squad in a coupe of windows and even at that Jose hasnt gotten all the players he wanted in the previous windows.

It would be utter madness to replace a manager who has the club on an upward trajectory just like it was madness delaying in sacking the previous two managers who had the club on a downward trajectory.

bucketybuck

ericzeking wrote: »

There was a step change in our form after the Liverpool game where we basically bent over to have our bottoms smacked.

People defended that performance at the time and couldn't accept why I had such a problem with it. I wonder if they now realise what the bigger issue was?

Momentum lads. Its important, that Liverpool set up and performance ****ed all our momentum out the window and we are still feeling the effects today.

adox

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

True that!
You would think the vast majority of our players would be at a different level then Bristol though!

Obviously it meant more to them on the night.

They are better players which says more about their character than anything else. The fringe players especially sealed their own fate last night, if there was ever any doubt.

dfx-

Lord TSC wrote: »

Peopleinterpretations of that Pool game always baffles me.

Do you really think Jose went "u guys sux, so just hoof it away!".

The plan was clearly to hit Pool on the break, which is absolutely how you play against a high press team like Pool. Tactically, I'd have had zero problems with that game. There was an utter failure from the players to hit a team on the break though, something we've seems consistently this season. Other than Pogba, we don't have players to launch a counter attack, while Our attacking players never seem to carry out the attacks when the passes come off.

You don't have to say it for it to be clearly obvious.

You beat a high press team like Liverpool or City by getting beyond the first press - passing around it where there's then oceans of room behind. But you have to be prepared to take the risk of playing the ball with your defenders and holding midfielders showing for the ball and believe in your players to not make a mistake.

You don't beat it by hoofing it away on sight.

adox

bucketybuck wrote: »

People defended that performance at the time and couldn't accept why I had such a problem with it. I wonder if they now realise what the bigger issue was?

Momentum lads. Its important, that Liverpool set up and performance ****ed all our momentum out the window and we are still feeling the effects today.

I agree with that but the question is - was it all down to the tactics of the manager or was in on the players not carrying out the tactics correctly?


Depends which side of the fence you sit. The first 15-20 minutes looked like the tactics were spot on. high press, give them no space, get plenty of men behind the ball but press press press when they have possession, then when you win the ball back hit them on the counter.

It all when to **** after that. The press stopped. the players fell deeper and deeper and panicked when they had the ball.

bucketybuck

Drumpot wrote: »

I’ve noticed it in a few games where United look like they are going to cruise it and something happens (concede goal or don’t finish off game) that changes the momentum. Nobody seems to be able to stand up and calm things down. Jose’s Chelsea were supeme at closing out games and keeping cool heads (unless playing Barca!) but I don’t get that feeling from this squad.

This squad simply doesn't have it, that leadership, character, whatever you want to call it. We have seen it dozens of times over the last few years and as I have said before, we are going to see it plenty more times before the end of the season.

How Soon Is Now

adox wrote: »

They are better players which says more about their character than anything else. The fringe players especially sealed their own fate last night, if there was ever any doubt.

The club and players mentality has changed massively since Fergie left.
There's big personalitys but there's no one there to drag people threw games give certain players a kick up the hole when they need it!

We had a lot of mentally strong players at one point that stood up when they where needed.

For me that's been one the things that's changed in a big way that we don't have that presence about us anymore we have lost the bite and never say die attitude we had under Fergie.

When everything is going well there all smiles and dances but soon as confidence goes who's there to shake everyone up!?

Lord TSC

adox wrote: »

It would be utter madness to replace a manager who has the club on an upward trajectory just like it was madness delaying in sacking the previous two managers who had the club on a downward trajectory.

I always said I'd have backed Van Gaal if there had been signs of progression, but there never was. He seemed content to settle into a battle for top four every year, and we regressed in his second year with us.

With Jose, there's been a clear upward trend since he joined, and I'd trust that trend to continue.

pjohnson

I'd say Darmian could be on his way out in January aswell as Mkhitaryan. Hes slid well down the pecking order now.

Lord TSC

pjohnson wrote: »

I'd say Darmian could be on his way out in January aswell as Mkhitaryan. Hes slid well down the pecking order now.

After the match, I was talking to my mother about the game. I said I thought there were a few second string players who had shown they were gone asap; Blind, Mkhi, Darmian.

Her response? "Wait, Darmian was playing?" And in that moment, I genuinely couldn't think of a single moment he even had the ball last night....

bucketybuck

adox wrote: »

I agree with that but the question is - was it all down to the tactics of the manager or was in on the players not carrying out the tactics correctly?

One led to the other. Remember the context, we had been flying and Liverpools defence was getting slaughtered, but when the lineups were announced it was clear as day that instead of going for their throats we were giving them respect and trying to play tactically. Certain players came into the team and the shape was changed somewhat, all of this was commented on pre-game.

But we don't have a strong team of experienced pro's, we have a lot of weak players and so while on the face of things the tactics might have been acceptable it didn't take into account just how badly they would react to the change in emphasis. They didn't hear "respect Liverpool but this is how we beat them", they heard "we need to be worried about Liverpool" and so most of them went into their shells.

United had momentum going into that game and Mourinho needed to realise that with such a fragile team he needed to protect that momentum and ride the wave as long as he could. Instead he tapped the brakes, and the players following behind slammed on theirs.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

After the match, I was talking to my mother about the game. I said I thought there were a few second string players who had shown they were gone asap; Blind, Mkhi, Darmian.

Her response? "Wait, Darmian was playing?" And in that moment, I genuinely couldn't think of a single moment he even had the ball last night....

Yep. He just seems to have given up or something. Most matches now just seem to pass him by completely. I think Young will be Valencia's back up on the right (aswell as first hoice left for now) with Rojo/Shaw/Blind filling in the LB slot if Young has to go over to the right. Shaw possibly staking a claim to be first choice LB.

Blind I think will last until the summer but we will then probably buy a specialised DM to replace Carrick, and either keep Shaw or buy an new LB making Blind no longer needed either.

Mars Bar

Lord TSC wrote: »

After the match, I was talking to my mother about the game. I said I thought there were a few second string players who had shown they were gone asap; Blind, Mkhi, Darmian.

Her response? "Wait, Darmian was playing?" And in that moment, I genuinely couldn't think of a single moment he even had the ball last night....

Twice he got the ball near the sideline and just hoofed it to nobody.

pjohnson

Mars Bar wrote: »

Twice he got the ball near the sideline and just hoofed it to nobody.

I'd reckon Milan would still be willing to pay a decent enough for him so we should cash in.

secman

astradave wrote: »

Yeah it’s definitely time to change manager.. who do you think we should realistically bring in, and why?

Dave, you think "it's all the players fault " and the solution is throw more money at the squad and have another clear out ?

pjohnson

secman wrote: »

Dave, you think "it's all the players fault " and the solution is throw more money at the squad and have another clear out ?

I dont think that answers his question.

bangkok

Mars Bar wrote: »

Twice he got the ball near the sideline and just hoofed it to nobody.

Why didnt jose give axel a run out a right back instead. We all know what darmian "offers" anytime axel has played he has done very well

secman

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont think that answers his question.

And the answer to my question........

StringerBell

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

True that!
You would think the vast majority of our players would be at a different level then Bristol though!

Obviously it meant more to them on the night.

It really did, and you can understand why it means so much to them. United made 10 changes to the team and Bristol only made 1, they wanted it more. This is no excusing the performance at all.

There is an old adage in football, particularly when you go to a smaller teams ground that you have to fight initially for the right to play your brand of football. You have to win the battle and stand up to the physical test before your superior quality will show through. We have seen this for years with Arsenal underperforming.

United teams in the mid 90's had this to a tee. Some great quality through the team for sure, but not one of them would shy away from a physical challenge either.

The lack of fight in the squad barring a few players is not something to be proud of, but certainly something that is fixable.

StringerBell

dfx- wrote: »

You don't have to say it for it to be clearly obvious.

You beat a high press team like Liverpool or City by getting beyond the first press - passing around it where there's then oceans of room behind. But you have to be prepared to take the risk of playing the ball with your defenders and holding midfielders showing for the ball and believe in your players to not make a mistake.

You don't beat it by hoofing it away on sight.

Spurs played the exact same tactic against Liverpool and smacked them around, the only difference was the execution.

pjohnson

secman wrote: »

And the answer to my question........

So you don't know a better manager then. No suprises.

ericzeking

pjohnson wrote: »

So you don't know a better manager then. No suprises.

Ancellotti?

Cookiemunster

secman wrote: »

Dave, you think "it's all the players fault " and the solution is throw more money at the squad and have another clear out ?

The players that LVG bought are not good enough and need to go. Scheniderlan, Memphis, Schweinsteiger are already gone. The likes of Blind and Darmien still need to be binned. It's not a clear out as it's happening over a number of windows, but they do need to be replaced.

Add to that aging players from Fergies era like Young and Valencia.

Donnielighto

gstack166 wrote: »

Better than AFTV this

You realise there are other threads, surprised you get away with only posting here.

bucketybuck

secman wrote: »

Dave, you think "it's all the players fault " and the solution is throw more money at the squad and have another clear out ?

There is a huge sunk cost fallacy surrounding this squad, the belief that a lot of money has been spent and that we have to persevere with everything that it was spent upon.

I don't really get it, we all know that there were three years of very poor management so why do we feel we need to be limited by the decisions made in those three years?

I know how much has been spent on players and who they are. I'm as fiscally prudent as anybody but we cannot be beholden to that past expenditure, we need to assess the current squad on its merits and if it needs a clearout then thats what it needs.

Alf Veedersane

StringerBell wrote: »

The lack of fight in the squad barring a few players is not something to be proud of, but certainly something that is fixable.

Is it fixable though? I'm not sure it is. Players....people don't suddenly develop the desire to fight for every ball, for every yard in a race to a loose ball, to be the one that wins the 50/50 every time no matter who they're playing.

The teams in the 90s had very different characters.

ericzeking

bucketybuck wrote: »

There is a huge sunk cost fallacy surrounding this squad, the belief that a lot of money has been spent and that we have to persevere with everything that it was spent upon.

I don't really get it, we all know that there were three years of very poor management so why do we feel we need to be limited by the decisions made in those three years?

I know how much has been spent on players and who they are. I'm as fiscally prudent as anybody but we cannot be beholden to that past expenditure, we need to assess the current squad on its merits and if it needs a clearout then thats what it needs.

When you say clear out, do you mean like 20 players or what, because Jose has essentially bought the spine of a team, Bailly/Lindeloff, Matic, Pogba, Miki, Zlatan/Lukaku?

The way we play aint down to Matteo Darmian and Daley Blind and last nights result with the few back up players who were included isn't the problem that some people are seeing.

Cookiemunster

ericzeking wrote: »

When you say clear out, do you mean like 20 players or what, because Jose has essentially bought the spine of a team, Bailly/Lindeloff, Matic, Pogba, Miki, Zlatan/Lukaku?

The way we play aint down to Matteo Darmian and Daley Blind and last nights result with the few back up players who were included isn't the problem that some people are seeing.

And we've made massive strides forwards with those players. But we still need 2 full backs, another central midfielder and a decent right sided attacker. Jose took over a poor squad and is still in the middle of the overhaul.

dfx-

StringerBell wrote: »

Spurs played the exact same tactic against Liverpool and smacked them around, the only difference was the execution.

And Lovren mistakes.

StringerBell

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Is it fixable though? I'm not sure it is. Players....people don't suddenly develop the desire to fight for every ball, for every yard in a race to a loose ball, to be the one that wins the 50/50 every time no matter who they're playing.

The teams in the 90s had very different characters.

I agree

I don't mean fixable with this group of players, I mean in terms of recruitment going forward. Sorry if that was not clear.

Alf Veedersane

StringerBell wrote: »

I agree

I don't mean fixable with this group of players, I mean in terms of recruitment going forward. Sorry if that was not clear.

Ah sorry. With you now.

Maybe I'm too cynical. I just question whether most of today's players have that fight. They're few and far between anyway. They get paid so much it doesn't matter.

I don't really mean to tar everyone with the same brush and I'm not really but hard to think of top drawer players of an age you'd bring in who will fight tooth and nail for those inches

bangkok

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc2tCN1ns0A/

Could do with a bit of fletch in the team now

TheDoc

Pretty grim stuff.

Was watching it in my local and there was very little atmosphere or anything, even people getting mad. Was so flat. MAtch had barely blew for the final whistle and everyone went back to conversations. Either league cup is a total non entity (I'd imagine its more this) or that sort of rubbish isn't surprising anymore.

Definitly having some revaluations of the squad. Won't talk about the manager, as I would expect the team that finished the game, to smash a Championship team.

Only thing I will say managerial wise, again another disjointed ****ing mess in the final third