Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

Fitz*

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Maybe I'm too cynical. I just question whether most of today's players have that fight. They're few and far between anyway. They get paid so much it doesn't matter.

I don't really mean to tar everyone with the same brush and I'm not really but hard to think of top drawer players of an age you'd bring in who will fight tooth and nail for those inches

Not sure if this is what you mean, but your post reminded me of a series of tweets last night (apologies for the way it appears but I'm not sure how to post a thread)

https://twitter.com/cmwinterburn/status/943606114859577344
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943609347979952128
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943610100517814272
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943611512261787648
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826208126410752
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826571143520256
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943827177828638725
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/942468868953346048

bangkok

FitzShane wrote: »

Not sure if this is what you mean, but your post reminded me of a series of tweets last night (apologies for the way it appears but I'm not sure how to post a thread)

https://twitter.com/cmwinterburn/status/943606114859577344
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943609347979952128
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943610100517814272
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943611512261787648
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826208126410752
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826571143520256
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943827177828638725
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/942468868953346048

So its the manager who is to blame

TheDoc

If we wanted to be like Athletico, we would just go get Simeone no?

That is such a shuddering prospect, to basically turn into Athletico. ****ing hell. Where did that even come from

adox

FitzShane wrote: »

Not sure if this is what you mean, but your post reminded me of a series of tweets last night (apologies for the way it appears but I'm not sure how to post a thread)

https://twitter.com/cmwinterburn/status/943606114859577344
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943609347979952128
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943610100517814272
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943611512261787648
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826208126410752
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943826571143520256
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/943827177828638725
https://twitter.com/reverse_ball/status/942468868953346048

What a load of nonsense!!!

You`d swear this is the first big club Jose has managed going by the above tweets. Who the hell is that anyway?

adox

bangkok wrote: »

So its the manager who is to blame

Oh yes of course it is because some lad with 5000 followers on twitter says so.

StringerBell

Couldn't be arsed actually reading those tweets, one was enough, I feel like I have a good measure of how much importance I should pace on them though.

TheDoc

StringerBell wrote: »

Couldn't be arsed actually reading those tweets, one was enough, I feel like I have a good measure of how much importance I should pace on them though.

He has a good point in terms of top technically gifted attacking players clearly not wanting to play the way Jose does, it's counter intuitive to them and I'd imagine universally not what a proffesional footballer at that level wants to do.

Somewhat lost the run of himself though

bangkok

adox wrote: »

Oh yes of course it is because some lad with 5000 followers on twitter says so.

No but its clear to see we have no style of play, thats the managers issue

bucketybuck

You'd need some amount of hand waving to reconcile that narrative with the amount of goals we are scoring this season. Or to ignore the cognitive dissonance of Mourinho having the team attacking far more fluidly than Van Gaal ever did, and yet Jose being the one ruining all the attackers...

bangkok

Chances created in the league we are in 6th place

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11178654/manchester-united-have-struggled-to-create-premier-league-chances-but-why

Lord TSC

bangkok wrote: »

Chances created in the league we are in 6th place

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11178654/manchester-united-have-struggled-to-create-premier-league-chances-but-why

Ah, so if we are second in goals scored, but sixth in chances created, that shows we are very efficient with our shots then?

Trigger

Lord TSC wrote: »

Ah, so if we are second in goals scored, but sixth in chances created, that shows we are very efficient with our shots then?

Don’t you know that chances created is more important than Goals scored /s

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

Ah, so if we are second in goals scored, but sixth in chances created, that shows we are very efficient with our shots then?

Chances created usually means the team is playing well

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Chances created usually means the team is playing well

What does goals scored mean?

pjohnson

According to Squawka this crisis is worse than what Sky said

http://www.squawka.com/football-team-rankings#chances-created#team-stats#english-premier-league|season-2017/2018#0#90#any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total


I guess Newcastle (18th) and Southampton (12th) are "playing better" than us (2nd).


Also Arsenal are better than Man City despite being 19 points worse off.

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

What does goals scored mean?

We are taking our chances... doesnt mean we are playing well though and we havent for a while. Wayne rooney has a better scoring ratio than lukaku this season. That says it all

Whatsisname

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

We are taking our chances... doesnt mean we are playing well though and we havent for a while. Wayne rooney has a better scoring ratio than lukaku this season. That says it all

That Rooney has taken 3 more penalties than Lukaku?

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

That Rooney has taken 3 more penalties than Lukaku?

Lukaku took one and missed and then wasnt allowed to take one in another game. Hardly a vote of confidence

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

Lukaku took one and missed and then wasnt allowed to take one in another game. Hardly a vote of confidence

Well I'd imagine most people would say the striker who scored 10 goals in open play would be more impressive than the striker who scored 7....but sure Rooney is better

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

Ah, so if we are second in goals scored, but sixth in chances created, that shows we are very efficient with our shots then?

Found we are actually number 1 in this statistic.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/chancenverwertung/wettbewerb/GB1

:P

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

Well I'd imagine most people would say the striker who scored 10 goals in open play would be more impressive than the striker who scored 7....but sure Rooney is better

Meh, rooney is playing in midfield in a team that was down near the bottom of the table. I would say what he is doing is much more impressive

Trigger

How the **** has this ended up as a Rooney debate :pac:

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

Meh, rooney is playing in midfield in a team that was down near the bottom of the table. I would say what he is doing is much more impressive

Stick to the opinions bangbang. The actual statistics dont help you.

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

How the **** has this ended up as a Rooney debate :pac:

Goalposts began moving when it was outed that "chances created" is a meaningless reflection of anything. When the topic is lost best to change it.

Alf Veedersane

bucketybuck wrote: »

You'd need some amount of hand waving to reconcile that narrative with the amount of goals we are scoring this season. Or to ignore the cognitive dissonance of Mourinho having the team attacking far more fluidly than Van Gaal ever did, and yet Jose being the one ruining all the attackers...

I don't think I want to get into a Mourinho out campaign of bull**** but having the team attacking more fluidly than LVG isn't the benchmark.

Anyone ignoring the positives of our play under Mourinho is a dope.

But there are plenty of negatives to his tenure. But the negatives aren't all down to him. It's not that simple. If the players phone in a 'performance', that's on them.

Frankly, I don't know what the right answer is but it isn't Jose Out. Not right not anyway

adox

The lines really do get blurred here between having a completely different point of view on the team and manager, and wondering is someone actually on the wind up?

The goalposts are currently in the carpark and look like they are heading towards the motorway... who knows where they go next?

stay tuned folks

pjohnson

I dont understand anyone who harks back to LVG as a positive time. Sure the claim is that we "went for it" in the big games unlike now. But the fact remains there are not that many big games in a season. LVG hadn't a notion how to beat the smaller teams whereas Jose has no such issue. Theres no coincidence we have more points now than we ever did under LVG.

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont understand anyone who harks back to LVG as a positive time. Sure the claim is that we "went for it" in the big games unlike now. But the fact remains there are not that many big games in a season. LVG hadn't a notion how to beat the smaller teams whereas Jose has no such issue. Theres no coincidence we have more points now than we ever did under LVG.

We lost to bristol city last night...

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

We lost to bristol city last night...

Ah so you think that was a League game then. I'm not actually suprised.

Turtwig

pjohnson wrote: »

Ah so you think that was a League game then. I'm not actually suprised.

Huddersfield was a non league game?

adox

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont understand anyone who harks back to LVG as a positive time. Sure the claim is that we "went for it" in the big games unlike now. But the fact remains there are not that many big games in a season. LVG hadn't a notion how to beat the smaller teams whereas Jose has no such issue. Theres no coincidence we have more points now than we ever did under LVG.

We played utterly pointless football under Van Gaal.
We had huge possession stats but it was the ultimate in cowardly football with very few chances created. It’s the most boring football I’ve seen Utd play in my 40 years following them.

Jose is exactly what the club need at the moment. We handed over the reigns to two fools(footballing wise) after Fergie. The club was in a state when Jose took over. Apart from Van Gaals turgid football, he made an absolute sh1te of the squad. Utds fall from grave couldn’t have happened quicker.

We need a ****ing winner in charge for at least a few seasons. Let him mould the club again into one that challenges at the top year in year out. You can worry about artistic impression when we are top of the pile again.

I can’t over emphasize how important I think it is for the club to get back up there in whatever way it takes. Jose was a gift when he was available after Van Gaal. All the stats prove that he has greatly improved the standing of the club, won trophies in his first season and half way through his second season has us sitting second behind a team that have only dropped two points in half a season!!

No one is saying it has been prefect. He hasn’t gone without criticism from the so called “pro Jose” posters. Id seriously be careful what you wish for(not you pjhonson, I’m just quoting you to agree about Van Gaal and elaborate). We could change manager again and cause more distraction and spend another few hundred million and be cast into the wilderness for years to come.

Look at the big ****ing picture people. We are on the right trajectory. The first time since Fergie left. Three years adrift was never going to be an overnight fix.

adox

Turtwig wrote: »

Huddersfield was a non league game?

Emm he’s talking about half a season of games overall but I’m sure you knew that.

Sand

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think I want to get into a Mourinho out campaign of bull**** but having the team attacking more fluidly than LVG isn't the benchmark.

Anyone ignoring the positives of our play under Mourinho is a dope.

But there are plenty of negatives to his tenure. But the negatives aren't all down to him. It's not that simple. If the players phone in a 'performance', that's on them.

Frankly, I don't know what the right answer is but it isn't Jose Out. Not right not anyway

I largely agree with this. But the bit in bold is something I don't agree with. The job of the manager is to prepare the team. Individual performances can be put down to individuals. But if most or all of a team are phoning in a performance, then the management has to take the blame for not properly preparing them.

Mourinho deserves his share of the credit when things go well. Equally he has to take his share of the responsibility when things are not right. If people are saying the problem is the players, and the manager cant work with them then that's a concern.

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

We lost to bristol city last night...

How many lower league teams did we lose to in the cups over the last 40 years..

****in plenty

Where you calling for SAF’s head when we lost to them during his reign

Cookiemunster

bangkok wrote: »

We lost to bristol city last night...

LVG lost 4 nil to MK Dons. What's your point?

Lord TSC

And Fergie went out in cups to teams like Southend, Ipswich, York City....

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

How many lower league teams did we lose to in the cups over the last 40 years..

****in plenty

Where you calling for SAF’s head when we lost to them during his reign

Im not calling for mourinhos head. Where exactly did i say that? I want the football to improve. Hardly a lot to ask for

deaddonkey15

I think Bangkok has a valid point when raising concerns over our attacking play. All well and good replying with snide posts about how we're the 2nd highest scorers in the league etc. but it's a bit skewed. We weren't too hot in front of goal last night. Could have done with a few extra goals against Huddersfield and Stoke too. Even in our wins against Benfica and Brighton we struggled to score and our goals were quite fortuitous. None of these are top sides.

Only 1 goal scored against City, Chelsea, and Liverpool (the 3 other teams that will make the top 4 in my opinion) is very poor. Even that goal came about due to a defensive mistake rather than any cohesive attacking play on our part.

We may be the second highest goal scorers but there's a reason why we were effectively out of the title race less than half way through the season and are now out of a cup that we are the current holders of. We can point to how exceptionally well City are playing as an excuse not to be ahead of them (and a perfectly valid excuse in fairness), but if we were as good at getting goals or "scoring for fun" as some people in the thread are making us out to be then maybe we wouldn't have dropped 5 points against Stoke and Huddersfield or been stripped of our League cup title by Bristol.

There's plenty of room for improvement in our attacking play, and plenty of valid criticism that can be given to both the players and manager.

S.M.B.

It's very difficult to challenge a results oriented argument in a sport where results mean everything but I'm bloody well glad I do. I couldn't be dealing with the massive attitude swings as soon as a result doesn't go in our favour.

clubberlang12

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I think Bangkok has a valid point when raising concerns over our attacking play. All well and good replying with snide posts about how we're the 2nd highest scorers in the league etc. but it's a bit skewed. We weren't too hot in front of goal last night. Could have done with a few extra goals against Huddersfield and Stoke too. Even in our wins against Benfica and Brighton we struggled to score and our goals were quite fortuitous. None of these are top sides.

Only 1 goal scored against City, Chelsea, and Liverpool (the 3 other teams that will make the top 4 in my opinion) is very poor. Even that goal came about due to a defensive mistake rather than any cohesive attacking play on our part.

We may be the second highest goal scorers but there's a reason why we were effectively out of the title race less than half way through the season and are now out of a cup that we are the current holders of. We can point to how exceptionally well City are playing as an excuse not to be ahead of them (and a perfectly valid excuse in fairness), but if we were as good at getting goals or "scoring for fun" as some people in the thread are making us out to be then maybe we wouldn't have dropped 5 points against Stoke and Huddersfield or been stripped of our League cup title by Bristol.

There's plenty of room for improvement in our attacking play, and plenty of valid criticism that can be given to both the players and manager.

To be ahead of City as this stage of the current season we would need to have a 100% record in the league!!!!! Nobody has ever done that before at this stage of the season that I'm aware of, so i think to say City's form is a perfectly valid excuse for us not being above them is perhaps the most obvious statement one could come out with!!!! Also, if United are effectively out of the title race half way through the season, that also means the current league champions are out of it too, the runners up last season are way out of it too considering they are 10 points adrift of us. The third team to finish top 4 last season, Liverpool, are 7 points behind us so they are also out of the title race too.

I don't personally think that anybody is saying we play free flowing attacking football. The "2nd Top Goals Scored" response is to posters saying that Mourinho is too defensive. There is a difference in those 2 statements.

I agree, i think we can be a bit more adventurous but things don't happen overnight. We are on an upward course of improvement. The team is most definitely in transition and that takes time. 4 weeks ago Pochettino was the flavour of the month and many saying he should be replacing Jose. Funny how when he continued his extremely poor record against the large clubs his name was quickly forgotten. Even if Mourinho does leave after this year or the next, or the next after that.......i fully believe he'll leave us in a better place than when he arrived and a better squad of players and characters.

StringerBell

TheDoc wrote: »

He has a good point in terms of top technically gifted attacking players clearly not wanting to play the way Jose does, it's counter intuitive to them and I'd imagine universally not what a proffesional footballer at that level wants to do.

Somewhat lost the run of himself though

So what? Its a job, do City players not work hard without the ball to get it back as quickly as possible now?

Did Barca not do that? Munich? Juventus? All of these teams when they had naturally attack minded players got the best out of themselves, as a team when they all fought for the cause and did their bit defensively.

Any player not interested in defending would want to be Ronaldo or Messi, you can carry one of those in your team, maybe two, against the best sides its definitely just the one if any.

He thinks he has a point, the point is a load of nonsense unfortunately for him. Just another (not even thinly) veiled dig at Mourinho. Nothing new, nothing interesting either.

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

We are taking our chances... doesnt mean we are playing well though and we havent for a while. Wayne rooney has a better scoring ratio than lukaku this season. That says it all

Only to the feeble minded.

deaddonkey15

clubberlang12 wrote: »

To be ahead of City as this stage of the current season we would need to have a 100% record in the league!!!!! Nobody has ever done that before at this stage of the season that I'm aware of, so i think to say City's form is a perfectly valid excuse for us not being above them is perhaps the most obvious statement one could come out with!!!! Also, if United are effectively out of the title race half way through the season, that also means the current league champions are out of it too, the runners up last season are way out of it too considering they are 10 points adrift of us. The third team to finish top 4 last season, Liverpool, are 7 points behind us so they are also out of the title race too.

I acknowledged that being ahead of City is rather unrealistic in my post, but we could be closer than 11 points behind had we been the well oiled attacking machine that some are making us out to be. I'm not too worried about where Chelsea, Spurs and Liverpool are. Like us, they have plenty to be concerned about and to discuss amongst themselves. They have plenty of reasons to criticise their managers too.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I don't personally think that anybody is saying we play free flowing attacking football. The "2nd Top Goals Scored" response is to posters saying that Mourinho is too defensive. There is a difference in those 2 statements.

Well it's been more recently said in response to Bangkok airing his concerns over our attacking play. There have been games this season where Mourinho has been too defensive and we have failed to score. It's not that impressive putting 5 past Newcastle when we can only put 1 past City, Chelsea and Liverpool combined.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I agree, i think we can be a bit more adventurous but things don't happen overnight. We are on an upward course of improvement. The team is most definitely in transition and that takes time. 4 weeks ago Pochettino was the flavour of the month and many saying he should be replacing Jose. Funny how when he continued his extremely poor record against the large clubs his name was quickly forgotten. Even if Mourinho does leave after this year or the next, or the next after that.......i fully believe he'll leave us in a better place than when he arrived and a better squad of players and characters.

I don't think anyone is really denying this. We can still criticise and voice our concerns about the team despite being on an upward trajectory.

Iused2likebusts

clubberlang12 wrote: »

To be ahead of City as this stage of the current season we would need to have a 100% record in the league!!!!!

If you had beaten city you could have dropped 4 points and would be 1 point ahead of them.

clubberlang12

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

If you had beaten city you could have dropped 4 points and would be 1 point ahead of them.

My head is hurting trying to figure this out!

Even if we had beaten City and results stayed the same since, they'd still be 5 points ahead of us!

Rayne Wooney

Truly baffles me how one can watch a United game and come to the conclusion that our attacking players are being deprived of freedom out on the pitch.

They have as much freedom as City players do, but nowhere near the creativity or ruthlessness.

Pogba, Ibra, Lukaku, Martial and Rashford were all on the pitch at the same time last night ffs, how on earth is it Mourinho’s fault that they couldn’t create a goal between them against a championship side.

bangkok

StringerBell wrote: »

So what? Its a job, do City players not work hard without the ball to get it back as quickly as possible now?

Did Barca not do that? Munich? Juventus? All of these teams when they had naturally attack minded players got the best out of themselves, as a team when they all fought for the cause and did their bit defensively.

Any player not interested in defending would want to be Ronaldo or Messi, you can carry one of those in your team, maybe two, against the best sides its definitely just the one if any.

He thinks he has a point, the point is a load of nonsense unfortunately for him. Just another (not even thinly) veiled dig at Mourinho. Nothing new, nothing interesting either.

Yes they work hard but they push right up on the opposition defence and win the ball back quickly.

We drop in a total defensive unit and just try to hit teams on the break...

Against liverpool most were here expecting a 2 or 3 nil victory. It was awful. We didnt even try to play football. I think after that game we still havent really recovered. We should have gone there and laid down a marker

Iused2likebusts

clubberlang12 wrote: »

My head is hurting trying to figure this out!

Even if we had beaten City and results stayed the same since, they'd still be 5 points ahead of us!

You said that you needed to have a 100% record to be ahead of city. They have dropped 2 pts so if utd beat city then city would have dropped 5 pts meaning utd could have dropped 4 pts and topped the league.