Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

adox

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

With this type of management style, you need good examples of people who pulled their socks up and got back onside with him. Martial is a good example, Jones and Young might feel similar. Hopefully Shaw can sort his **** out and be the next to drag himself back into contention and take Mourinhos critiques and use them to spur him on. Done well, it creates strength, fergie would do similar in private, not as publically though.

Oh I agree, when it’s about individual players then it can be very effective. It’s when he’s talking as he did post match today about the squad in general, that’s when you are walk8ng a bit of a tight rope.

The thing is, I agree with what most of what he said post match. I’m just not sure how productive or destructive it is airing it in public. It’s why though I’m convinced he will move for players in January. He’s already putting it up to the board with his “£300 million spent is enough to compete with City” comments.

Crticising individual players doesn’t really upset the group. When you start crticising them in public en mass it only takes a few to start questioning it and tha5 can spread throughout the squad. I think it’s a dangerous game and I hope he knows what he’s doing.

jayo26

TheDoc wrote: »

We are still in 2nd only from our decent early season results and Chelsea being a mess.

Our recent form over the last 4-6 games should be alarming. If this team doesn’t start clicking like a proper functioning top team should, could easily slide down that table with eyes on the CL.

100 percent agree with you doc we need to turn things around on recent form ect yes but other teams around us have stuff to sorth out too so it's all if an but. Maybe I am blind foolish but I have faith in the manager to be able rectify what needs to be rectified pretty quickly to make sure we finish the season as strong as we started it.

TheDoc

The man just needs to sit down with his staff and have a really long hard think what’s they are trying to achieve here. Like really thrash it out. I assume he has the same staff for so long because they army yes men? So someone needs to tell him the attacking play and style of this team needs fixing.

If I start to see a plan or vision, an attempt st something, I can at least give some patience and understanding.

All I can see happening is the likes of Meiji going, Rashfords form continuing to regress, Lukaku looking like she’s wondering did he make the right decision, maybe a new face in that area of the pitch , all still just trying to figure it all out.

Like there surely has to be some thought going into this. And if it means offloading players so be it. Would prefer clearing out and buying quality. As much as I’ll defend a lot of players , I know I’m pissing in the wind about potential on them.

IamtheWalrus

After underperforming greatly the last few seasons, in the summer Jose said he was happy with the club's transfer business. It was almost Arsene Wenger level.

TheDoc

jayo26 wrote: »

100 percent agree with you doc we need to turn things around on recent form ect yes but other teams around us have stuff to sorth out too so it's all if an but. Maybe I am blind foolish but I have faith in the manager to be able rectify what needs to be rectified pretty quickly to make sure we finish the season as strong as we started it.

Where is this faith coming from ?

For me the problem he is being asked to solve, is there before Van Gaal left. Was there last season and crept back in this season

Van Gaal couldn’t construct an attacking style or pattern and Mourinho hasn’t thus far either.

It’s been the big final piece of the puzzle for three seasons IMO. LVG put the defensive strength and organization in place. Jose has progressed the midfield play somewhat but attacking has been in bits under both

adox

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

After underperforming greatly the last few seasons, in the summer Jose said he was happy with the club's transfer business. It was almost Arsene Wenger level.

No it wasn’t. He said he didn’t get all the players he wanted but was happy with the business.


Good effort though.

DM_7

jayo26 wrote: »

Fine but if you set up a team to create chances and they miss chances and fail to complete some easy crosses that would of lead to even more chances and concede at least two goals in two games from individual player error then i don't see why it's wrong of him say we missed chances and concede sh1t goals you want him to lie.

He didn't blame money for the result he was pointed to what city have spent in comparison to him and he said it's not enough.

People have been comparing saying Jose has spent similar to pep since they both took over respective clubs while in fact we have spent a good bit less while starting off with a far poorer squad so yes we do need to spend more to compete with them.

When people don't exaggerate what he says and actually read what he says and when he says it he is not wrong at all.

I am happy with Jose as manager just in case we go down that route.

My problem is (a small gripe overall), as manager of Manchester United, with his profile and experience, he knows the key words and sentences that will be picked up on. ANY mention of needing to spend more, that the club is big but not the team, talking about conceding **** goals etc will move the focus to the players.

Yet he made mistakes himself. He could be taking some of the pressure by on but seems reluctant to do it.

Edit: as Adox mentions above, Jose is not wrong but he is not paid to be a pundit either.

jayo26

TheDoc wrote: »

Where is this faith coming from ?

For me the problem he is being asked to solve, is there before Van Gaal left. Was there last season and crept back in this season

Van Gaal couldn’t construct an attacking style or pattern and Mourinho hasn’t thus far either.

It’s been the big final piece of the puzzle for three seasons IMO. LVG put the defensive strength and organization in place. Jose has progressed the midfield play somewhat but attacking has been in bits under both

I've faith because of what he has achieved in the past and what I have seen from the team at certain points in the past 18 months.

Jose is never ever going to play like pep or klopp we are never going to play free flowing football for the season but he does grind out results and have defensively solid teams we created enough in the last two games that we should of won them we had plenty chances today and scored two goals in each but the sloppy early goal and the sloppy late goal against city are not something that happens his teams due to injuries again in defence we have shuffling around players and its not helping there either.

ebbsy

A new fleet of buses needed.

jayo26

DM_7 wrote: »

I am happy with Jose as manager just in case we go down that route.

My problem is (a small gripe overall), as manager of Manchester United, with his profile and experience, he knows the key words and sentences that will be picked up on. ANY mention of needing to spend more, that the club is big but not the team, talking about conceding **** goals etc will move the focus to the players.

Yet he made mistakes himself. He could be taking some of the pressure by on but seems reluctant to do it.

Edit: as Adox mentions above, Jose is not wrong but he is not paid to be a pundit either.

This is not what you said tho you said he didn't need to have a go at anyone and accept the blame that's directed at him... He didn't have a go at anyone he said he was happy with his players and said we as a team conceded sh1t goals and missed chances.

He didn't bring money out of nowhere he was asked about it again.

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

Van Gaal couldn’t construct an attacking style or pattern and Mourinho hasn’t thus far either.

I just don't agree with that.

Tactically, we have been mauling teams. As poor a result as Leicester was, we could have put five or six past them. Again today, we dominated them for the vast majority of the game.

Jose does have us trying to play dominating attacking football. Where we struggle is when the players can't seem to get the ball in the net, and have lapses of judgement at both ends of the pitch. When it works, we are easily putting four past teams. But we don't get to second with one of the best goal scoring records in the league without having a good attacking style.

adox

Van Gaals football was a million miles away from Jose’s. In fact it was a million miles away from anyone I’ve ever seen. Some of the worst, cowardly, least constructive football I have ver seen.

To think he was allowed to hack up the squad and spend so much on so much dross still makes me shudder.

If we ever reach that low again then we will be in a **** load of trouble.

DM_7

jayo26 wrote: »

This is not what you said tho you said he didn't need to have a go at anyone and accept the blame that's directed at him... He didn't have a go at anyone he said he was happy with his players and said we as a team conceded sh1t goals and missed chances.

He didn't bring money out of nowhere he was asked about it again.

We see the phrase 'move the goal posts' here a lot. Jose did that today. His happy with the players talk was as well as making sure to say, as a group, they are not good enough to start with. That (imo) deflects away from his choices.

He would be expecting the form and money questions to come up. Jose often uses the media to get what he wants, that is probably more signings.

He is right in his summary, I want to see him continue the rebuild but I am not happy to see him in public saying the group is not good enough after a couple of bad weeks for the team.

Tom.D.BJJ

ebbsy wrote: »

A new fleet of buses needed.

Gtfo

Tom.D.BJJ

I agree that we are definitely playing better football....but it's also plain to see that if we want to compete with City the team needs strengthening in certain areas.

IamtheWalrus

adox wrote: »

No it wasn’t. He said he didn’t get all the players he wanted but was happy with the business.


Good effort though.

He was targeting only one other player, that he failed to get.

*pats head*

SlickRic

José is not wrong on the £300m comment, but only in the context of talking about Manchester City.

Pep, to a decent extent, is a chequebook manager. If someone calls José one, you have to call Pep one. Even though the two managers play certain styles, they both rely on a particular profile of player. Pep's system does not work if the players aren't right. Look at last season.

Pep had a better squad when he arrived than when José did when he did. Yet Pep, who José knows is brilliant, gets his choice of players in whatever position for whatever price. I mean, we've even seen VVD rumoured this week, and he'd be 3rd choice CB more than likely. For £60m.

In that context, while many will see him as trolling, £300m is not enough.

José is looking at his team, sitting in 2nd, only behind a City juggernaut that has spent more than him, even though he has spent plenty. You can't really compete with City's wealth+Pep unless you play well above your capacity and they play below theirs.

José knows Pep is brilliant.
He knows he won't beat him unless the spending is matched.

Nobody will.

For instance, why do you think Conté was annoyed in the summer with the lack of spending?

Money money money.

It's purist, ideological bullshíttery for anyone to suggest 'well, can't he just coach the players he has?' Well, yes he can, and they might get better. But the biggest spenders invariably win the silverware. It's just a fact.

£300m is not enough to compete with this City setup unless they grossly underachieve.

Trigger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

He was targeting only one other player, that he failed to get.

*pats head*

So therefore “he didn’t get all the players he wanted”

*pats head*

Crimson King

Pep inherited a far better team, and tbh his best players are still those he inherited. Jose was always playing catch up and is spending less so the fear is the gap could widen even further.

StringerBell

Tylerdurex wrote: »

Our 2 most recent draws aside when you see how pool and city are playing then we really are behind the times . If Liverpool sort there defensive problems out they are the only team in the league that can go toe to toe with city instead of having to set themselves up to play differently to tackle cities strengths

Aye, 2 wins in their last 5 league games is scintillating form.

IamtheWalrus

astradave wrote: »

So therefore “he didn’t get all the players he wanted”

*pats head*

Here you go now

"I asked them for four players, four profiles of players I needed and I gave them options. So 75 per cent of the job is done. We have just 25 per cent left to do until 31 August. We are in great conditions to have what I would consider to be a good market for us."

pjohnson

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Here you go now

"I asked them for four players, four profiles of players I needed and I gave them options. So 75 per cent of the job is done. We have just 25 per cent left to do until 31 August. We are in great conditions to have what I would consider to be a good market for us."

I dont see how this helps your point. Just proves it BS?

IamtheWalrus

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont see how this helps your point. Just proves it BS?

Proves it 100%. Now, I'm outa here. catch ya'll later.

Trigger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Here you go now

"I asked them for four players, four profiles of players I needed and I gave them options. So 75 per cent of the job is done. We have just 25 per cent left to do until 31 August. We are in great conditions to have what I would consider to be a good market for us."

So he didn’t get 100% of the players he wanted?

Trigger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Proves it 100%. Now, I'm outa here. catch ya'll later.

Maybe proves it 75%

pjohnson

Anyway. Wouldnt mind a cull next month. Darmian, Blind, Mkhitaryan out. Rojo seems to be in headcase mode and forgot the sudden composure he got last year so wouldnt mind shipping him out. Fellaini if he wont sign can jog on so we get some money for him. If he has decided his UTD career is over he cant exactly give his all in these coming months.


Defo need to get at least another attacker in. This Malcom fella maybe. Someone pacey to offer an alternative to Martial/Rashford out wide that isn't Mata. Mata move to #10 position competing with Lingard.

That might see us through to the summer. Then we immediately need Ibrahimovic and Carrick replacements.

pjohnson

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Proves it 100%. Now, I'm outa here. catch ya'll later.

He says 75%? But you read 100%?

Sgt Pepper 64

SlickRic wrote: »

José is not wrong on the £300m comment, but only in the context of talking about Manchester City.

Pep, to a decent extent, is a chequebook manager. If someone calls José one, you have to call Pep one. Even though the two managers play certain styles, they both rely on a particular profile of player. Pep's system does not work if the players aren't right. Look at last season.

Pep had a better squad when he arrived than when José did when he did. Yet Pep, who José knows is brilliant, gets his choice of players in whatever position for whatever price. I mean, we've even seen VVD rumoured this week, and he'd be 3rd choice CB more than likely. For £60m.

In that context, while many will see him as trolling, £300m is not enough.

José is looking at his team, sitting in 2nd, only behind a City juggernaut that has spent more than him, even though he has spent plenty. You can't really compete with City's wealth+Pep unless you play well above your capacity and they play below theirs.

José knows Pep is brilliant.
He knows he won't beat him unless the spending is matched.

Nobody will.

For instance, why do you think Conté was annoyed in the summer with the lack of spending?

Money money money.

It's purist, ideological bullshíttery for anyone to suggest 'well, can't he just coach the players he has?' Well, yes he can, and they might get better. But the biggest spenders invariably win the silverware. It's just a fact.

£300m is not enough to compete with this City setup unless they grossly underachieve.

Conte was annoyed because he didnt want another "mourinho" season
And the reason that happened was because Jose was not backed by the chelsea board. It was not about city, rather it was about buying proper competition for places and therefore avoiding complacency against the regulars
Remember, Jose played a first team of core players almost exclusively with very little rotation
Conte did the same
But you need equal or better players to stop complacency and that hasnt been achieved this season or in Jose's final chelsea season

the main difference between jose chelseas title winning side and utd today imo is the lack of true leaders and players with fanatical desiore to win

Jose had Ivan, JT, drogba, matic (at his peak), cahill, and costa to call on,
all very driven leaders on and off the pitch

Interestingly enough Jose didnt have to spend much at all on the chelsea squad, just a few tweaks here and there.

At Utd, mainly I think because of LVG, he had a major rebuilding job.
With chelsea I think like Fergie did with Utd, jose could make the sum of the parts greater than the whole.. JT and Cahill must have been the slowest CB pairing ever, yet he got them to 2nd and then the title

LVG ripped the heart out of utd and utd has been slow to recover, but its deffo improving. Im just surprised Jose didnt spend on the defence first rather than where he did but maybe he just couldnt get his targets

Hotblack Desiato

TheDoc wrote: »

LVG put the defensive strength and organization in place.

Lol

Revisionism of the very worst order there.

We were so defensively strong under Louis, Swansea became our bogey team.

bangkok

Why now is it acknowledged that city have a better team than us, but when it was said at the start of the season it was shut down??

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Why now is it acknowledged that city have a better team than us, but when it was said at the start of the season it was shut down??

You do know that opinions are allowed to be changed and revised.. you don’t have to stick by an opinion like crazy.. it’s ok to be wrong sometimes and I for one hold my hand up and say that I was wrong about the forward lineups of both teams at the start.. I thought our line up would push on and match them but Pep has taken them to a further level, one that we didn’t know existed until matches have been played..

It’s not hard to figure out tbh

bangkok

Lukaku is a good striker yes, good enough to lead the line for a top european club, no, miles away from it.

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

You do know that opinions are allowed to be changed and revised.. you don’t have to stick by an opinion like crazy.. it’s ok to be wrong sometimes and I for one hold my hand up and say that I was wrong about the forward lineups of both teams at the start.. I thought our line up would push on and match them but Pep has taken them to a further level, one that we didn’t know existed until matches have been played..

It’s not hard to figure out tbh

It was fairly clear imo before the season even started along with some others in here. Now the aeason has unfolded it looks like we need to spend at least another 200-300m before we can even compete with city and also im not 100% convinced by mourinho. In the big games is he up to it, i dont think he is

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

It was fairly clear imo before the season even started along with some others in here. Now the aeason has unfolded it looks like we need to spend at least another 200-300m before we can even compete with city and also im not 100% convinced by mourinho. In the big games is he up to it, i dont think he is

No shît...

Good night Bangkok, enjoy your pints

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

No shît...

Good night Bangkok, enjoy your pints

Lost in league cup ro bristol city, out of the league title race and its only chrsitmas, stuggled in champions league to finish top, talk of unrest, jose slagging players in public. If he waa gone next summer would i be surprised.... not one bit.

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

So he didn’t get 100% of the players he wanted?

Neither did pep. He wanted dani alves, ryan bertrand and alexis sanchez. Jose hasnt done as well as we would have all hoped this season

StringerBell

I also enjoy answering questions that don't get asked.

Was I surprised to see my uncle upside down behind the couch today asleep having continued to drink solidly since Christmas Day? Not one bit.

To be fair to him he does only drink once a year.

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

Neither did pep. He wanted dani alves, ryan bertrand and alexis sanchez. Jose hasnt done as well as we would have all hoped this season

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the back and forth you have inserted yourself in.

How are those pints?

bangkok

StringerBell wrote: »

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the back and forth you have inserted yourself in.

How are those pints?

Pints are grand, sitting 15 points behind city before jan 1st, well that is a load of sh1t

dfx-

Crimson King wrote: »

Pep inherited a far better team, and tbh his best players are still those he inherited. Jose was always playing catch up and is spending less so the fear is the gap could widen even further.

Pep inherited a team from a club who was planning to get him years in advance. This season is the culmination of several years work behind the scenes.

Give Mourinho all the money in the world and he's still playing Pepe in midfield, Alonso as a battler, Fellaini, Herrera as destroyers and Lukaku/Drogba upfront.

The money or playing catch up argument is flawed.

Hotblack Desiato

StringerBell wrote: »

To be fair to him he does only drink once a year.

For 364 days

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

Pints are grand, sitting 15 points behind city before jan 1st, well that is a load of sh1t

Yep. Boring oul league this season alright, City will stroll home from here, can you imagine being a fan of any other club bar Utd though? You are so affronted by our league position I would think you would be apoplectic to be in any of the other clubs positions on Jan 1st.

Whatsisname

bangkok wrote: »

Why now is it acknowledged that city have a better team than us, but when it was said at the start of the season it was shut down??

Because we're half way through the season now? Obviously?

StringerBell

dfx- wrote: »

Pep inherited a team from a club who was planning to get him years in advance. This season is the culmination of several years work behind the scenes.

Give Mourinho all the money in the world and he's still playing Pepe in midfield, Alonso as a battler, Fellaini, Herrera as destroyers and Lukaku/Drogba upfront.

The money or playing catch up argument is flawed.

This post ^ is also flawed

bangkok

Whatsisname wrote: »

Because we're half way through the season now? Obviously?

Yea but when concerns were made at start of season and was shut down, many said we had a better attack than city, so do the same people now put the blame on jose or do they think we are not as good as they made out?

Whatsisname

bangkok wrote: »

Yea but when concerns were made at start of season and was shut down, many said we had a better attack than city, so do the same people now put the blame on jose or do they think we are not as good as they made out?

I dunno, maybe they just give City credit for being ridiculously good. I don't think many expected them to perform like this, this season.

Then some have are dead set against Jose and will find any angle to attack him from.

Who knows, Bangkok, who knows.

deaddonkey15

bangkok wrote: »

Yea but when concerns were made at start of season and was shut down, many said we had a better attack than city, so do the same people now put the blame on jose or do they think we are not as good as they made out?

Have to laugh at all the "pretty sure there's a City superthread" posts and 'closet City fan' accusations that were made in here when someone remarked on how good City were. Fast forward a few weeks and it seems everyone in here is happy to openly discuss City and Pep now.

Liam McPoyle

dfx- wrote: »

Pep inherited a team from a club who was planning to get him years in advance. This season is the culmination of several years work behind the scenes.

Give Mourinho all the money in the world and he's still playing Pepe in midfield, Alonso as a battler, Fellaini, Herrera as destroyers and Lukaku/Drogba upfront.

The money or playing catch up argument is flawed.

City have been actively working behind the scenes preparing for Peps arrival?

How does that work?

Buying players?

Would the argument that Jose having 18 months in the job, but Pep having things put in place for him over the years before his arrival not add credence to the opinion that he (Jose) is playing catch up, rather than disprove it?

StringerBell

I think they were making preparations for Pep judging by some of the background staff they were putting in place in the shape of his old Barcelona buddies. I also think that it makes the case more clear that Pep came in to a structure that was further along in the way he wanted things then Jose did. I also think that Pep is probably the ultimate in chequebook managers, very good when he has the players who can play the style he wants. Not so much without them, most managers do fall in to that grouping though.

Tbh,ultimately it doesn't matter. All United can do is look after themselves, overall the trajectory since Jose arrived has been almost vertically up. When I think about scrapping it out for 4th and finishing 6th, 7th, I am very happy with how things are going the last year or so and would have confidence things will continue to improve.

You simply can't legislate or plan for a team heading into January having not dropped a single point since August. You can look after your own results, some of ours have not been perfect but the points total, the better attacking football etc is definitely at an acceptable level for this point of the season. There are areas to improve, which not one person I have seen post here would deny. The denial of the clear improvements is something I find almost as amusing as frustrating.

Turtwig

Business Cat wrote: »

City have been actively working behind the scenes preparing for Peps arrival?

How does that work?

Buying players?

Would the argument that Jose having 18 months in the job, but Pep having things put in place for him over the years before his arrival not add credence to the opinion that he (Jose) is playing catch up, rather than disprove it?

Sorriano was kicked out of Barca because he wanted to localise the brand and set up mini Barca clubs, with teams, in multiple cities. Basically what city football group are doing now.
They want to create a "brand" of football clubs. To do that they need an identity and philosophy. Which they've been gradually implementing. All the while taking the absolute piss with transfer rules (the Apple didn't fall far from the Barca tree). Pep is seen as the "cruyff" figure. He'll put the structures in place for first xi and main team. Then arteta or someone will take the reins. Or they'll export arteta to another CFG club. The end goal being to have all clubs playing the same way so fans of those can readily identify with being fans of the main club. It's really ambitious.


Regarding pep as a cheque book manager he makes players look much better than they are. Barca reserve squad whenever he rotated heavily for ucl, copa or league looked really complete - the vast majority of those players went no where. Jeffren? Cuenca? Bojan? Affelay? . He managed Barca B which had primarily players who would never make championship or even lower and made them a coherent juggernaut (for their division).

Give pep Swansea for six months to a year and he'd have them mid table/promoted from the championship again.

It's true though himself mourinho and ancellotti are the biggest cheque book managers spending wise. Largely though because they also happen to be best coaches.