Manchester United Thread..The Final Chapter of 17? (MOD WARNINGS IN OP)

fatherted1969

M!Ck^ wrote: »

And why do you think he's caught to cover so many positions inthat case? Does it possibly go back the point I made earlier?

No, I don't want him on the wing with a big hole through the middle of the field. I'd like him to be a lot more disciplined in his position on the field. It's nothing to do with him trying to be everywhere. He's way too loose at the moment for a central midfielder.

fatherted1969

fatherted1969 wrote: »

No, I don't want him on the wing with a big hole through the middle of the field. I'd like him to be a lot more disciplined in his position on the field. It's nothing to do with him trying to be everywhere. He's way too loose at the moment for a central midfielder.

You are specifically picking out something you have spotted in the last 15 minutes of a game.

Mata, martial, Rashford, lingard all not good enough tonight. That's the final third of the field. That's where the game was not won.
A 32 year old Ashley young has delivered crosses consistantly better than any of them combined.

Lukaku would be taking the same **** only for he he got injured tonight.

By the way I have openly criticized Jose here for not playing a proper 3 man midfield but at the same time he had mikitaryan in that position in front of Matic and Pogba and at the start of the season at least mikis end product was producing results.
But he's no longer performing and producing those results.
Pogba has been forcefully covering for two players for a long time. When he went injured the creativity went with it also.

As for Ander Herrera? Gon ta **** and just as bad as Miki.

We are actually limited in our selection and until the gap is addressed Pogba will continue to have to do the job of two players.

Nalz

https://youtu.be/ShBFvP94xTg

Scholesy on pogbas positioning, role, strength and weaknesses.

100% agree with the comment that the things he does in most games cancels out the good/flairy bits he does.

fatherted1969

M!Ck^ wrote: »

You are specifically picking out something you have spotted in the last 15 minutes of a game.

Mata, martial, Rashford, lingard all not good enough tonight. That's the final third of the field. That's where the game was not won.
A 32 year old Ashley young has delivered crosses consistantly better than any of them combined.


Lukaku would be taking the same **** only for he he got injured tonight.

By the way I have openly criticized Jose here for not playing a proper 3 man midfield but at the same time he had mikitaryan in that position in front of Matic and Pogba and at the start of the season at least mikis end product was producing results.
But he's no longer performing and producing those results.
Pogba has been forcefully covering for two players for a long time. When he went injured the creativity went with it also.

As for Ander Herrera? Gon ta **** and just as bad as Miki.

We are actually limited in our selection and until the gap is addressed Pogba will continue to have to do the job of two players.

You're criticising every other player on the field but are up in arms over Pogba getting a bit of flak. Don't agree with me, it's not the end of the world for me

In other news I see Nike have announced Coutinho as Barcelona bound on their website. Interesting January ahead I think

bucketybuck

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Mata, martial, Rashford, lingard all not good enough tonight. That's the final third of the field. That's where the game was not won.

This really is the heart of the problems and I've been saying it since the Liverpool game, we can blame the deeper midfielders all day long but consistently we have an attacking unit that simply isn't contributing. I mean, we talk of two man midfields as if the likes of Mata or Mikhitarian have no part to play there, as if they are allowed to just float about and wait for something to happen. "They shouldn't be defending" is the cry, as if any team can afford 3 players not putting in a shift in that regard. And forget defending, what do they contribute to ball retention? Possession? Movement? Not a lot is the answer to that. David Silva can get on the ball in midfield and dictate play yet with our lot its all excuses and waiting for Pogba to make things happen. And when you criticise one of them people actually respond with things like "Well, its not his fault, he didn't see much of the ball"...

There is a reason we have seen about 50 different combinations of that group behind Lukaku, its because apart from Lingard not a one of them has ever stood up and made a position their own. People will point to a few goals here and assists there but lets face it, we are going to keep seeing this **** as long as the likes of Mata and Martial keep doing their disappearing acts.

fatherted1969

fatherted1969 wrote: »

You're criticising every other player on the field but are up in arms over Pogba getting a bit of flak. Don't agree with me, it's not the end of the world for me

In other news I see Nike have announced Coutinho as Barcelona bound on their website. Interesting January ahead I think

You see that's just not true, I have been criticizing Pogba from certain aspects and people continue to refute and state otherwise. The problem is the price tag, same with lukaka. It seems to blind proper judgement of a player and a team as a whole.

The reason we did not win tonight is not because of Pogba.
It was because of inept finishing, indecision and absolute bottle in the final third of the field.

We have been suffering from this on and off for 2+ years.

As I've said Pogba is there to create, nothing more. That's why he was purchased and something we have been missing for so long.

But certain people continue to lock on and expect Messi levels of performance from him.

The rest of the team up front are too inconsistent and more change up is required.

I actually credit Jose as he's given everyone a fair chance. Something I would have doubted him on before he took over.

But the time is now. The chop is on for some players and I feel something radical will happen sooner rather than later. Just hope the rest of those impatience fans hold out to see it.

StringerBell

Pogba plated a good ball to Mata, who picked Lukaku out brilliantly from the right. That our striker couldn't hit the target from 7 yards out is nobodies fault but his own.

Lindelof went route one and Rashford had a chance to hit the ball, first with his left, then his right. He did neither, delayed as we have seen from him too often and ****ed it up, Mata has a shot on target but easy for the keeper.

Young crosses from the right, Rashford can't head the ball into the net from 3 yards, no conviction.

Lingard knocks the ball up, Yoshida hand balls, it is a penalty, soft. Not given.

Pogba sweeps it out to the left, Miki puts a very good ball into the box, Lingard can't hit the target from 6 yards.

Shocking defending to allow Long almost score, he should have scored. Shocking.

Ashley Young elbowing Tadic, should have been sent off. Dirty

Lingard has the ball on the break, United have a 4 on 3 situation developing, runs straight into the first man loses the ball.

Martial, who I am surprised did not come on for Lukaku earns a free, Ashley Young takes it, deflected wide.

Pogba scores, offside. Right call. What makes it worse is for my money that was going in if Pogba didn't touch the ****ing thing.

Martial runs at them down the left, gets the ball across to Rashord in the middle of the box. Turns down the shot

Just my own notes from the MOTD highlights, this is against a team who had won 1 in 11, at Old Trafford, when we needed a win. Badly.

Some fans booing? Big whoop, you always get muppets you always will.

There was no urgency, no desire and no tempo in that game.That's just not good enough and one way or the other something needs to happen. Jose who I don't blame for the entire mess but does carry his share of the malaise needs to get a handle on this. I expect Young to pick up a ban for that elbow and rightly so.

Pogba didn't just hide on the wing for the last 15 minutes, he was literally all over the pitch. Getting on the ball where he could, a lot of the time too deep for my liking but certainly not hiding on the wing. He is fighting his price tag and big personality all the time so it will be a struggle when things are not going well, could do himself a favour and drive forward more with the ball. Has the ability to run from deep and either shoot or play a man in.

Now in a fight for top 3/4, but in a strong position. The end of the year has been a disaster for us and I can't wait to get this year behind and hopefully get back to winning ways in 2018. Oh yeah, anybody seriously considering us being better off without Jose needs to have a long think about that. For argument sake lets just say there are not many managers in world football you could call better then Jose. You give him time and let him do his thing he will succeed. He has improved the team massively since coming in and will continue to do so, its unfortunate City are the way they are this season, it makes the blips even more magnified and the criticism sharper.

Alex Ferguson said this once of Jose Mourinho

“There is no point in sacking one of the best coaches of all time, he’s won the European Cup twice, he’s won the league in each country he’s managed in, he’s won the big trophies.

It largely holds true for United right now, there really is no point in sacking one of the best coaches of all time especially when you look at the progress being made by the club, where it was when he came in, where it is now. This season is half way through, we are all disappointed that the title challenge didn't materialise. It would have of course but for City, I think the City game has had a negative impact on the players and the Leicester game big time. That was a real gut punch and there are too many players in that squad who fold rather then stand up in the tough times.

Great thing about football is there is always another opportunity to get back on the momentum train, Everton provides that next.

The rivals have had good Christmas's overall, Chelsea being the most consistent. Just the defeat to West Ham and draw with Everton to blemish them, Spurs look great at times but it isn't really that long ago they went 4 without a win including draws to West Brom, Watford, defeats to Arsenal and Leicester. They have also lost to City this month, then again though who hasn't. Liverpool have had a good month also since drawing with Chelsea they then drew with Arsenal, Everton and West Brom. The games they did win they won well though which creates an impression. Arsenal (who are another of the teams apparently playing much better than us) lost to us, drew with Southampton, West Ham, Liverpool and go to West Brom today. Then they have Chelsea on the 3rd.

United of course beat Arsenal West Brom and Bournemouth but the 3 draws to end the year is what will leave the taste in the mouth. That is fair enough, they have not been good enough results but the end of the world stuff does need a reality check.

This post has now gone all over the place, I apologise but Im pressing post anyway

Get out of here with that logical post stringer :P

Headshot

Nice to read some sense for once in this thread
ty Stringer

Neeson

Times are changing. As Johnny Giles said a few years ago, these things happen in cycles. You seen it with Liverpool. Also, the footballers at United are a bit soft.

Now there are soft footballers everywhere but United need a few hard men. Only a number of years ago you had players like Cattermole getting hard for a tackle in the league. Those days have gone it would appear. A Cattermole type would do a fine job instead of Herrera. A good hard man who doesn't mind getting dirty.

There has to be the balance with hardness and flair as well. McGeady was never puck up by United when he was in his prime and available for a decent price.

As Johnny Giles says they don't make the footballers like the used to. Too many playstations instead of getting out on the street to kick a ball. It was street football that gave Cattermole his hard body ready to take on the men of the game when he got older. The kerbstones helped McGeady perfect his skills. The youngsters coming through now are more concerned with haircuts.

Whatsisname

Can’t tell if I’m sleep deprived or if I actually read what I think I read

Mantis Toboggan

Awful performance yet again, as someone said earlier big decline since Jose tried to line himself up for the PSG job.
However nothing another 3 hundred million pound won't solve.

Lord TSC

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Awful performance yet again, as someone said earlier big decline since Jose tried to line himself up for the PSG job.
However nothing another 3 hundred million pound won't solve.

Two teams spent more than us in the summer. Those two teams are above us at the end of 2017. Do you think that's a coincidence?

And that's ignoring the fact we didn't start at the same level as City and Chelsea to begin with either; despite Chelsea starting from a better position, we have spent the majority of the season ahead of them.

But Jose's point is simple and true; City are rushing ahead in spendings (and have a three year head start too) and, not coincidentally, are rushing ahead in the league as well. And do you think they won't spend another 300m in the summer to improve even more so?

If tou want to catch up with City, and any time soon, there DOES need to be a higher quality of player brought in, and that's going to require big spending. And it's going to require a higher spending level than City because they are starting from a far, far higher position than we are.

Or you can stick with a bunch of players who have never won any thing, have spent multiple seasons struggling for forth (and missing sometimes) and just keep moaning about the manager and how he shouldn't need more money, whatevs.

pjohnson

Whatsisname wrote: »

Can’t tell if I’m sleep deprived or if I actually read what I think I read

I assume there was inebriation involved. For his sake anyway.

secman

Stringer basically saying Mourinho is currently not getting the squad to play to its ability and should get more money and more importantly ,time to fix it. And also that we are unlucky that city have spent better and have a better manager.!

Robson99

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

We started the game with Mata, Lingard and Mkhitaryan as our main attackers, is it surprising shít went downhill from there?

We don’t have the players.

So who should he be looking to bring in ?
Not having a go at you but some posters seem to think that we need 3 or 4 more players. Who are these 3 or 4 players that are going to improve us?

beno619

So there's a difference in opinion on Pogba's performance yesterday no point going back and forward on that point.

Based on what we've seen over the past 18 months and Scholes comments last night there must be an acceptance that he's il suited to the role he's currently being asked to fill.

Going forward into 2018 José has to free up Pogba while keeping our most creative player Lingard in the side. Herrera or Fellaini could solve a problem but you wouldn't put your house on it at this point.

Hoping to see Martial leading the line on Monday.

deaddonkey15

I think Lukaku is one of our biggest problems, if not the biggest. His injury might be a blessing in disguise.

beno619

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I think Lukaku is one of our biggest problems, if not the biggest. His injury might be a blessing in disguise.

I think his contribution to overall play has been hit and miss. He has actually played well since the city game but let's not pretend he's been getting 3 or 4 big chances per game like he was at the start of the season.

Nalz

I see comments about Pogba being all over the pitch and it unclear what his role is in CM... I agree, with the caveat that this is not the case when we're defending, especially the majority of the time that we're counter attacked.

My two big beefs with him there. Let's runners go and is all over the pitch trying to do too much and be on the ball too much.

deaddonkey15

beno619 wrote: »

I think his contribution to overall play has been hit and miss. He has actually played well since the city game but let's not pretend he's been getting 3 or 4 big chances per game like he was at the start of the season.

I don't think the way the team plays gets the best out of him. In games we dominate we're just lumping crosses into him, the games we don't we're just lumping long balls up to him. It's not often that he has the ball at his feet in dangerous positions in and around the opposition box. Not easy to perform well with that kind of service.

Have said that though,I ultimately don't think he's good enough. Considering his fee and his role as the club's primary goalscorer, that header he missed yesterday simply had to go in. It's not the first time he's missed chances like that this season either.

pjohnson

Martial has to lead the line tomoro

Mr.H

Lord TSC wrote:

Two teams spent more than us in the summer. Those two teams are above us at the end of 2017. Do you think that's a coincidence?

You see this argument is flawed in so many ways. Only one team in the league had a net spend bigger than united and that was city by 2 million.

The whole thing about city preparing for pep is rubbish too. United spent huge cash in those years also on players. Both huge transfer fees and loan fees. Not to mention huge wages on a certain free transfer.

Then the whole thing about city and Chelsea already being ahead.... united won the league with fergie and handed moyes a league winning side.

Let me mansplan it. United issue is they wanted to replace Fergie with defensive managers. Whatever about moyes but lvg was hailed a genius here when he joined. Now you hate him. The same will happen with Jose. United thought they had a Devine right to the title and now thought they where the richest club in he world. Now the mentality needs to change and instead of throwing money at the problem. You just need to be smart about transfers. For example united have a great team. But it's an attacking one that doesn't suit a defensive manager. United's first team is as strong as city's on paper. Perhaps stronger. Is 300 million really gonna matter if the mentality stays the same.

https://twitter.com/ZarahConnolly/status/947193373462552582

Sgt Pepper 64

Lord TSC wrote: »

Two teams spent more than us in the summer. Those two teams are above us at the end of 2017. Do you think that's a coincidence?

And that's ignoring the fact we didn't start at the same level as City and Chelsea to begin with either; despite Chelsea starting from a better position, we have spent the majority of the season ahead of them.

But Jose's point is simple and true; City are rushing ahead in spendings (and have a three year head start too) and, not coincidentally, are rushing ahead in the league as well. And do you think they won't spend another 300m in the summer to improve even more so?

If tou want to catch up with City, and any time soon, there DOES need to be a higher quality of player brought in, and that's going to require big spending. And it's going to require a higher spending level than City because they are starting from a far, far higher position than we are.

Or you can stick with a bunch of players who have never won any thing, have spent multiple seasons struggling for forth (and missing sometimes) and just keep moaning about the manager and how he shouldn't need more money, whatevs.

this is wrong on so many levels...its really not about how much you spend, its about management and coaching....remember a team called Leicester??

city had sterling before pep arrived and he wasnt any great shakes, yet now he has been revitalized under pep and scored more than any other season

conte has moaned long and hard in the style of jose about transfers, yet we are second, having settled for players like drinkwater and zappacosta
the season before chelsea won it after buying a defender who used to play for bolton and kante, who nobody else wanted apparently

my point being is that all 3 managers coached there way to the title (i am assuming that city wont collapse!)

jose could have another 300 million and still not win the title, he knows only one way, defensive, and he expects all his creative players to track back and his strikers to defend, he blamed hazard for conceding goals ffs!

you win things by being a team, organised, everyone knowing their job, by being able to switch tactics mid game and by backing your players,
money helps of course, but its not the instant formula you think or chelsea would have have won every title since roman arrived

they didnt due to roman himself and the cannyist manager ever..fergie. he got teams drilled and organised and made average players great in their position

Minderbinder

You just have to admire Fergie even more for what he achieved at United given the mess that has been made since he left. It always seemed so easy and under control when he was guiding the ship. The amount of stuff that can easily go wrong when there is no clear plan is scary.

I don’t like sacking managers, and I even defended LVG until the end. Regarding Mourinho I just don’t see him having a long tenure, and I don’t see his tenure being the foundation of long term success and stability. Short term success in big competitions is not very likely either, although I still wouldn’t rule out a trophy this season.

I don’t blame any one person in particular for our obvious decline, certainly not the managers or players anyway.

I don’t see a manager out there who can sort out our problems. I’m not sure about the Spurs manager because I think the reputation he has built would be used against him. There would be expectations to do something very quickly and I think Spurs have been allowed to grow organically, which United fans evidently wouldn’t have the patience for.

I don’t think we need a big name manager. I think the whole club needs to humble itself and lower expectations or else we’ll end up like Liverpool, always trying to fix and tweak superficial problems, always changing direction because we don’t want to sacrifice the present in order to build something for the future. For the last few years we are like Father Ted trying to fix a dent in the car with a hammer.

We don’t need a manager who is obsessed with only winning. We don’t need fans who say stuff like ‘we should be winning the league every year because we’re Man United’.

The club is incredibly popular which is a great asset but also the club is too focused on maintaining popularity.

It’s not the time to sack the manager, and there is no point in doing so until there is a proper long term strategy in place.

GSPfan

I don’t want Jose to be sacked as I can’t see who we would bring in. I do however want Jose to change his approach to games and be a bit more adventurous. I don’t think we need major investment either on the player front. Buy Mahrez for £40 million and get Perreira back and we might actually have a good 433 or 352 depending on how Jose wants to set up.

The only problem with the above is that Jose will never change, and it appears the club aren’t forthcoming with the cash either. So it has left me frustrated to support this club. That is where I am at. It might come across as a “sack the manager” attitude but I don’t think there is much benefit in it for us now. Maybe in the Summer there might be an option but I think the top class manager pool has dried up a bit.

tinpib

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Awful performance yet again, as someone said earlier big decline since Jose tried to line himself up for the PSG job.
However nothing another 3 hundred million pound won't solve.

I see figures being thrown around so went onto transfermarkt.ie

https://www.transfermarkt.ie/premier-league/transfers/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2017&s_w=&leihe=0&leihe=1&intern=0&intern=1

Net Spend

2017/18 -€152.90 mil

2016/17 -€137.85 mill

Total net spend so far for Jose is €290.75mill, that is pretty shocking alright.



Just for reference

2015/16 -€53.93 mill

2014/15 -€146.06 mill

2013/14 -€75.33 mil

So another €275.32mill since Alex left.

Total net spend since Alex left €566.07mil

I see people saying that the Glazers just take money out of the club but these are net spend figures, that money has to come from somewhere be it borrowing from banks, from the Glazers themselves, or revenue the club generates.

Lord TSC

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

jose could have another 300 million and still not win the title, he knows only one way, defensive, and he expects all his creative players to track back and his strikers to defend, he blamed hazard for conceding goals ffs!

And this shows me that you've not watched much of us this season, or are resorting to a lazy "Jose = bus parking" narrative.

Our issue in the last three games has not been one of being overly defensive. We mauled Leicester and had multiple one on ones we should have scored. That game could have been 5-2 or 6-2 easily. Against Southampton, we had them pinned into their box for the entire game. They barely had sniffs on goal, and had the bus firmly parked for most of the game.

We've tried "defensive" (counter attacking) football in two games this season; Pool and City. In pretty much every other game, the tactics have very obviously called for high lines and trying to pin teams back. We've failed in those tactics a few times (Chelsea, for example, loved the amount of space they had), and a few times the players have got pinned back themselves. But the tactics this season have very clearly (imo anyway) been to try and dominate games offensively.

Player wise, we can't seem to launch counter attacks; there seems to be at least once a game where two or three of our guys break, out number the defense, and then just waste the ball in a pub-league manner. Rashford against Leicester failing to pass to Pogba or Lukaku in a 3 on 1 situation, Mkhi yesterday failing to pass to Rashford or Lingard in a 3 on 2, as examples.

Yesterday was not a game of showing Southampton too much respect and going ultra-negative football; it was a game of the players, as has been evident for years now, not knowing how to break down a bus. If Pogba has an off game and doesn't have a moment of magic, we're screwed; Rashford will take pot shots from a mile out, Martial and Lingard will charge head first into 7 defenders, and Mata will be hanging outside the box watching on.

But I refuse, to be honest, to accept this "Negative football" narrative because it simply isn't what I'm seeing on the field. There's a stark difference between "ultra defensive" football, and "Trying to attack and failing", but there's some (and opposition fans seem really happy about it too) who are too busy writing their own version of events, often without actually watching the game....

Net spend :P

Rossi IRL

Fosu-mensah playing rwb in a 352 (541) today vs City

tinpib

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Net spend :P

Yes, exactly. Manchester United is a business.

hufpc8w3adnk65

GSPfan wrote: »

I don’t want Jose to be sacked as I can’t see who we would bring in. I do however want Jose to change his approach to games and be a bit more adventurous. I don’t think we need major investment either on the player front. Buy Mahrez for £40 million and get Perreira back and we might actually have a good 433 or 352 depending on how Jose wants to set up.

The only problem with the above is that Jose will never change, and it appears the club aren’t forthcoming with the cash either. So it has left me frustrated to support this club. That is where I am at. It might come across as a “sack the manager” attitude but I don’t think there is much benefit in it for us now. Maybe in the Summer there might be an option but I think the top class manager pool has dried up a bit.

Jesus.... we get it! You like Mahrez! So you’ve told us countless times! You also mention Ross Barkley and just because you keep mentioning those players doesn’t mean that others are suddenly going to agree with you. IMO and others also these two shouldn’t be anywhere near a team challenging for the league. Yes Mahrez won it before but that team was a bit of a minior miracle again IMO.

You also make it sound SOO simple. Like any Tom Dick or Harry could run the team when now after 3 managers we are still struggling. It’s not a quick fix here


You mention playing 3-5-2 but the two players you mentioned one plays as a winger and not a wing back and the other Is currently playing as a winger as he cannot get into the team centrally

TheDoc

beno619 wrote: »

So there's a difference in opinion on Pogba's performance yesterday no point going back and forward on that point.

Based on what we've seen over the past 18 months and Scholes comments last night there must be an acceptance that he's il suited to the role he's currently being asked to fill.

Going forward into 2018 José has to free up Pogba while keeping our most creative player Lingard in the side. Herrera or Fellaini could solve a problem but you wouldn't put your house on it at this point.

Hoping to see Martial leading the line on Monday.

Pogba in our team feeds into my concern the manager doesn’t have a notion what he is doing, one and a half year into the job. Bought Pogba and just doesn’t know how to get the beat out of him. Same with Mhiki

Scholes is right. Pogba is being asked to do things he isn’t naturally comfortable with. He is a marauding box to box midfielder. Jose needs to get a grip and unleash him.

While Pogba has been for me excellent in the majority, he hasn’t been at the level he was at Juve.

GSPfan

MrMac84 wrote: »

Jesus.... we get it! You like Mahrez! So you’ve told us countless times! You also mention Ross Barkley and just because you keep mentioning those players doesn’t mean that others are suddenly going to agree with you. IMO and others also these two shouldn’t be anywhere near a team challenging for the league. Yes Mahrez won it before but that team was a bit of a minior miracle again IMO.

You also make it sound SOO simple. Like any Tom Dick or Harry could run the team when now after 3 managers we are still struggling. It’s not a quick fix here


You mention playing 3-5-2 but the two players you mentioned one players as a winger and not a wing back and the other Is currently playing as a winger as he cannot get into the team centrally

First of all...... calm down.

Second of all.......... calm down.

I’ll mention who I want when I want so give over with the narrative that you and others are sick of hearing it. As a moderator you endorse silencing opinion because some don’t like it?

Don’t answer that last part, it’s just food for thought.

Mahrez can play as a winger or a number 10. So he fits into 442, 433, 4231. All systems Jose currently uses.

Perreira could play in a midfield 3. If, Jose wanted to be a bit more adventurous as I asked for. Otherwise he is not going to play so leave him where he is.

Sgt Pepper 64

Lord TSC wrote: »

And this shows me that you've not watched much of us this season, or are resorting to a lazy "Jose = bus parking" narrative.

Our issue in the last three games has not been one of being overly defensive. We mauled Leicester and had multiple one on ones we should have scored. That game could have been 5-2 or 6-2 easily. Against Southampton, we had them pinned into their box for the entire game. They barely had sniffs on goal, and had the bus firmly parked for most of the game.

We've tried "defensive" (counter attacking) football in two games this season; Pool and City. In pretty much every other game, the tactics have very obviously called for high lines and trying to pin teams back. We've failed in those tactics a few times (Chelsea, for example, loved the amount of space they had), and a few times the players have got pinned back themselves. But the tactics this season have very clearly (imo anyway) been to try and dominate games offensively.

Player wise, we can't seem to launch counter attacks; there seems to be at least once a game where two or three of our guys break, out number the defense, and then just waste the ball in a pub-league manner. Rashford against Leicester failing to pass to Pogba or Lukaku in a 3 on 1 situation, Mkhi yesterday failing to pass to Rashford or Lingard in a 3 on 2, as examples.

Yesterday was not a game of showing Southampton too much respect and going ultra-negative football; it was a game of the players, as has been evident for years now, not knowing how to break down a bus. If Pogba has an off game and doesn't have a moment of magic, we're screwed; Rashford will take pot shots from a mile out, Martial and Lingard will charge head first into 7 defenders, and Mata will be hanging outside the box watching on.

But I refuse, to be honest, to accept this "Negative football" narrative because it simply isn't what I'm seeing on the field. There's a stark difference between "ultra defensive" football, and "Trying to attack and failing", but there's some (and opposition fans seem really happy about it too) who are too busy writing their own version of events, often without actually watching the game....

some bloke called paul scholes disagrees..after beating spurs 1-0

Jose Mourinho's Manchester United are 'not capable of playing brilliant attacking football' says Paul Scholes

"They're in a position where they've brought a manager in to ultimately win the league. For four years the club hasn't really been in a position to determine how they win it.

"We'd all like to see brilliant attacking football - waves after waves of attack - but I don't think this team is capable of that.

"That's not the way this manager does it. He's first and foremost a defensive coach. He wants to setup in a way that will stop the other team playing and winning games. He's doing that."

"We have to accept his style of football, as many clubs have done," he said. "He's very successful at doing it.

"United have to challenge for the league, over the last four years they haven't, and this season they've won a lot of games.

"OK, it's not been brilliant football but I'm just happy they're winning games."

cantona
"I love Mourinho. It is just I prefer it if it is more offensive because it is United.

"It is like Barcelona. If Barcelona played in a defensive way, nobody would understand. At United, that philosophy is very strong and now it is a bit difficult to understand.

"But I think Mourinho will win things with them."

yes you dont park the bus, but you arent exactly free flowing, and your attackers are tied with defensive duties...imagine fergie asking cantona to defend??

oh my other point was he had KDB, cost 13 million, but instead of playing and coaching him after he had proved himself at various loans, he quickly moved him on and bought "off the peg"...same with lukaku who he spent a fortune on after selling him.
His persistence with aged strikers like ibra...surely his wages would have been better spent elsewhere?

martial and henrick...2 very bright attacking talents, yet he doesnt play to their strengths and preferred a tired luakau to martial??

hufpc8w3adnk65

GSPfan wrote: »

First of all...... calm down.

Second of all.......... calm down.

I’ll mention who I want when I want so give over with the narrative that you and others are sick of hearing it. As a moderator you endorse silencing opinion because some don’t like it?

Don’t answer that last part, it’s just food for thought.

Mahrez can play as a winger or a number 10. So he fits into 442, 433, 4231. All systems Jose currently uses.

Perreira could play in a midfield 3. If, Jose wanted to be a bit more adventurous as I asked for. Otherwise he is not going to play so leave him where he is.

Of course you can mention who you want but you’ve brought up Mahrez plenty of times it’s been argued for and against yet you constantly bring him up like he’s some messiah that will save our entire season. 10 games ago he was struggling very badly and it looked as if he might even get dropped.

*Unless the font is bolded I’m posting as a member of the board and not a mod and if you take issue to a post press the report button

A bit more adventurous in cm? You mean the part of the pitch where we are over ran in almost every game you’d like us to me more adventurous?

Tylerdurex

Just 3 players would vastly improve things at United. A deep lying creative midfielder and proper wingers for the left and Right sides . I mentioned kroos before and he may indeed be unrealistic but perhaps someone like pjanic could be got .For the winger positions people have mentioned Mahrez but id prefer if we could try and get Willian off Chelsea. For the left id like us to go back for Perisic. Rashford and Martial will just have to compete with Lukaku for that sole striker position. Forget talk of a new number 10. Pogba should be taking that place in the team as the 3rd midfielder I'm a 433

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Matic

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Pjanic

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Pogba
Willian

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Perisic

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Lukaku

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pjohnson

TheDoc wrote: »

Pogba in our team feeds into my concern the manager doesn’t have a notion what he is doing, one and a half year into the job. Bought Pogba and just doesn’t know how to get the beat out of him. Same with Mhiki

Scholes is right. Pogba is being asked to do things he isn’t naturally comfortable with. He is a marauding box to box midfielder. Jose needs to get a grip and unleash him.

While Pogba has been for me excellent in the majority, he hasn’t been at the level he was at Juve.

Pogba at Juve had Arturo Vidal to do the the unglamourous donkey work while he played further forward. If only Pogba was box to box.

GSPfan

MrMac84 wrote: »

Of course you can mention who you want but you’ve brought up Mahrez plenty of times it’s been argued for and against yet you constantly bring him up like he’s some messiah that will save our entire season. 10 games ago he was struggling very badly and it looked as if he might even get dropped.

*Unless the font is bolded I’m posting as a member of the board and not a mod and if you take issue to a post press the report button

A bit more adventurous in cm? You mean the part of the pitch where we are over ran in almost every game you’d like us to me more adventurous?

Re: Mahrez - He would improve us drastically in the oppositions half which we desperately need. Call him the messiah if you must.

I didn’t say adventurous in cm. As a team we should be playing higher up the pitch as I think we retreat too much and leave the middle of the park with vast space for Matic and Pogba to patrol. I’m not a top class manager as you pointed out and either is anyone else in the forum so hopefully you’ll police others opinions on tactics too but I do feel we need to stop allowing teams to walk up to our box. I’d sacrifice the odd goal from someone running in behind us if it meant we could get Pogba nearer the goal. I think the trade off would be worth it.

pjohnson

MrMac84 wrote: »

A bit more adventurous in cm? You mean the part of the pitch where we are over ran in almost every game you’d like us to me more adventurous?

Exactly. Matic is left all by himself in CM faaaar too often.

secman

pjohnson wrote: »

Pogba at Juve had Arturo Vidal to do the the unglamourous donkey work while he played further forward. If only Pogba was box to box.

More importantly he had the brains and brilliance of Pirlo too

hufpc8w3adnk65

GSPfan wrote: »

Re: Mahrez - He would improve us drastically in the oppositions half which we desperately need. Call him the messiah if you must.

I didn’t say adventurous in cm. As a team we should be playing higher up the pitch as I think we retreat too much and leave the middle of the park with vast space for Matic and Pogba to patrol. I’m not a top class manager as you pointed out and either is anyone else in the forum so hopefully you’ll police others opinions on tactics too but I do feel we need to stop allowing teams to walk up to our box. I’d sacrifice the odd goal from someone running in behind us if it meant we could get Pogba nearer the goal. I think the trade off would be worth it.

On Mahrez we’ll have to agree to disagree as I just don’t see it. I don’t think any one player could improve us to the levels you believe Mahrez would and no matter how many times I’m told it I don’t think I will change my mind.


You said “Peiera could play in a midfield 3 if José wanted to be more adventurous” ?? That’s where we’d be more adventurous as there’d be bigger gaps in the cm then there is now

GSPfan

pjohnson wrote: »

Exactly. Matic is left all by himself in CM faaaar too often.

Why is that? Honest question.

See I think it’s because Pogba likes to go forward and that’s great but when we lose the ball in the other half you see our defenders turn and run back towards goal which suddenly leaves Matic looking lost in a vast space on his own.

I would stick another midfielder in there, play both Pogba and another attacking midfielder ahead of Matic and ask the 4 or 3 defenders behind Matic to hold their line higher up the pitch and meet the opposition about 10 yards outside the box instead of on the edge/just inside of it.

I know I’m making it all sound so simple and I’m a nobody on a forum but it’s something other teams do so it has to be somewhat achievable without leaking dozens of goals.

Liam McPoyle

Jose's signings.

Bailly - hit
Mikhi - looks like a miss
Pogba - hit (relatively)
Ibra - hit

Matic - hit
Lindelof - improving alot after a shaky start
Lukaku - started well but has been out of form lately, too early to say but it's arguably 50/50 whether he is a hit or miss

Of the 7 players brought in by JM most have worked out or look like they will.

What it really tells is that his predecessors bought badly. With the exception of Martial most of the purchases under Moyes and LVG are misses.

Many reveled in the "MOST EXPENSIVE SQUAD EVER ASSEMBLED" schtick last year even though JM oversaw only a fraction of the transfers.

There are still alot of the players at the club that simply aren't good enough to compete at the highest level.

GSPfan

I’ve just noticed something in the middle of my ramblings. General question for all - Can you remember us catching anyone offside this season?

Nalz

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Fosu-mensah playing rwb in a 352 (541) today vs City

City will draw today

Robson99

The reason there are so many gaps is because we are playing way too deep. Look at us yesterday. Let soton have the ball all the way up to the edge of our box. It may not be parking the bus but its negative.
We can blame all the players but until the manager changes his outdated tactics we are going nowhere. The game has moved on from his way of winning

Kerrydude1981

GSPfan wrote: »

I’ve just noticed something in the middle of my ramblings. General question for all - Can you remember us catching anyone offside this season?

Shirley caught Hernandez offside against West Ham

pjohnson

GSPfan wrote: »

I’ve just noticed something in the middle of my ramblings. General question for all - Can you remember us catching anyone offside this season?

At least twice yesterday against Boufal (when he re-entered the field behind DDG) and Long was off chasing a through ball.