785% insurance hike (no claims!) - small business/self employed extortion!

cormie

I’ve run my transport business for over 10 years and almost every year, I’ve had a debacle over dealing with my insurance renewal. The furniture removal/”man with a van” industry is one where there’s more rogue operators than legitimate. I’ve always tried to run a clean business including having the proper motor insurance for “hire and reward”, where rogue operators would be paying much cheaper premiums with an “own goods” policy.

I had decided on selling the business brand and leads as I had built up a solid reputation and have other interests I wish to pursue in different industries. Because of this and because of last years huge hike in premium, I decided to downsize the fleet.

Now it seems nobody wants to touch this category of profession to insure and this has resulted in having to go through the declined cases route with Insurance Ireland, as well as countless hours and calls to brokers, direct insurers, underwriters and anyone else I could think may be able to provide a reasonable solution.

I’ve never had any claims but my premium had increased, first by over 100%, then by around 300% and is now at an increase of over 785% for an even lower level of cover in the space of 3 years. My driving experience is practically worthless as companies aren’t taking it into consideration having been on a fleet policy for the last number of years.

Below is a brief history and shows just how ridiculous pricing has become.

2007-2009: Started in business with one van, got insured for furniture removal and general transport on a single vehicle commercial policy
2009: Had progressed from one van and was now seeking to get insured on a fleet policy.
2009-2015: Was insured on a 5 vehicle fleet policy with Quinn Direct/Liberty insurance, maintaining a 5 vehicle fleet of which some vehicles changed through the years. Each year I was paying in the region of €3,500 to insure all 5 vehicles, or circa €700 per vehicle.
2015-2016: For seemingly no reason other than "insurance is going up everywhere", my premium went from the c. €3,500 odd I had been paying between 2009 and 2015 annually, to c. €7,200.
2016-2017: I got a phone call from Liberty Insurance informing me that they would no longer be insuring me direct and I'd need to go through a broker and their minimum policy charge was now €10,000. Brokers checked the market and couldn't get me a quote and the only option would be to go through Liberty as they would be forced to insure me as my last insurer. The quote ended up being in the region of €13,800! It worked out a c. 298% increase on my premium price in the space of 2 years. I had to get insurance in place, but I told the broker in advance of pursuing with the policy, that I'd be removing 3 vehicles as it just wasn't sustainable to keep them on the road anymore. He said this was ok and that I'd be refunded the price of the vehicles I'm taking off so this is what happened.
2017-2018: Having removed vehicles, I was no longer being quoted for a fleet policy. Added to this, my driving experience was not accepted elsewhere as it was from a fleet policy and where before it held similar value to a no claims bonus, insurers weren’t accepting it at all now. A 33 year old who has had an insurance policy in their own name every year since being 19 years old, who has an advanced driving certification, extensive driving experience through many countries, weather conditions, vehicles and copious distances, who never made any claims or had any claims made against them, can not get insured for their profession, their own business, their source of income and their livelihood. Finally Liberty Insurance released a quote after being forced to from Insurance Ireland through the declined cases. A ridiculously extortionate sum of €6,196.69 for one van with third party only cover. So a price increase of over 785% per vehicle, for a lower level of cover! I’ve spoken to another operator offering the same services as I, who is paying €800 for a one vehicle removal business.



The service I offer is primarily a dedicated van and driver service where a move or transport service is completely tailored to the customer's schedule and needs. It's not like a postal courier doing 90-120 drops/collections a day, driving from 06:00-17:00 5 days a week. My vehicles spend very little time on the road in comparison to a lot of commercial vehicles. Aside from long distant or UK/European moves where the van of course needs to drive long distance, most jobs are local and the van will be parked for loading/unloading for far longer than it would be on the road going from point A to B.

While still owning 5 vehicles and considering my options with the business and wanting to sell it, I didn't immediately try sell the vehicles themselves. After realising the sale of the business would be a slow process and is something I'm still trying to get in motion, I decided it best to sell on one vehicle at a time so between the 2016/2017 year of cover, I sold 2 vehicles with a third currently listed for sale. Within the year I had terrible dealings with Liberty, firstly after refusing to directly offer me direct debit, so I had to go through another finance company, they actually ended up debiting over €2,000 by mistake which put my account in minus and caused heaps of problems and it took an age for them to refund the money.

They also imposed a restriction on what vehicles I could temporarily cover. This was never an issue before when I had 5 vehicles covered, where I was told all I needed to do to action a temporary transfer is send an email with the reg details, that I didn't even have to wait for an acknowledgement. Once I took vehicles off in the 2016/2017 policy, what seems like a decision out of spite, they wouldn't even let me temp transfer onto the vehicles that used to be insured without imposing an additional charge, which was never the case before.

I’ve followed up with numerous brokers, made so many phone calls, tried so many different companies, both over the phone and in person. I’ve spent countless hours on the phone, in the region of 100 phone calls, simply trying to get what is a legal requirement to drive a vehicle, without which, it is not possible to carry out my business legally.

Having spoken to others it seems fleet policy holders aren't the only ones affected by the non recognition of driving experience and motor trade risk policy holders may also find themselves in the same position.

I've also had companies refusing cover for driving in Europe. It just seems an absolute shambles that there's such hurdles in place to obtain what you can't legally operate without and that these companies can put whatever restrictions in place, refuse whatever they want and when forced to quote, have absolutely no justification for the price they come up with.

I know the EU recently investigated some Irish insurance companies due to the huge price difference between Irish and EU haulier insurance. I think this is definitely something that should be addressed. Nobody should have to go through the same just to get on the road to make a living.

I did enquire about some companies outside of Ireland being able to offer cover for residents of Ireland too, but didn't get far with that either. Does anyone know of any companies from other EU countries that may possibly be in a position to offer cover for the next renewal?

Four Phucs Ache

There was a business owner/ commercial driver in Meath about 2 years ago that had success getting a good cheaper policy from germany.It was publicised in the papers , not sure if national but definitely remember reading it in the Meath papers.

cormie

Interesting! I tried Google about it but couldn't find anything. I'd love to know more on that so if you have any further recollection, please post back

Four Phucs Ache

cormie wrote: »

Interesting! I tried Google about it but couldn't find anything. I'd love to know more on that so if you have any further recollection, please post back

Google "Meath insurance germany" and it's near the top.He insured a car or van for his business for about 50% less in Germany .

cormie

Found it, thanks a lot! I sent some random guy on facebook a message that looks like the guy in the photo :pac:

dr.fuzzenstein

Keep us posted!
Insurance companies in Ireland have decided that vans are evil and have banded together to eradicate this scourge off the roads forever. Just to insure a van for private use (100% not possible in Ireland) I had to tell stories several hundred feet tall. Was insured for "commercial" use, with the express exception of carrying goods. Was informed that was an absolute no-no. In fact I am sure that the exceptions for my policy made it void in absolutely every possible situation, meaning that just by sitting in the van my policy was already void, never mind driving it and I am sure that driving it abroad was certainly not included. So the only way to insure a van is to lie through your teeth and accept that you are not covered in any event.
Arrived in Germany and phoned a random insurance company "I would like to insure a right drive Transit Connect", " certainly, would you like third party or fully comp, that will be €500”. Need I say more. Irish insurance companies hate vans and want to destroy them. Anyone says different is lying.
Also, don't forget that every now and then an insurance company prints off the name of every policy holder and sticks up the list on a wall. Employees will then put on blindfolds and throw darts at the wall. With their back to the wall over their left shoulder. The names that get hit are then put on a blacklist. Their premiums get hiked by several hundred % or canceled altogether. All other companies are then informed of this decision.
They will then hold parties where they will laugh for hours about this whilst drinking champagne.

cormie

Haha, that sounds about right! Maybe I just need to phone a load of German companies and see if any will insure for vehicles/customers residing in Ireland!

Definitely feel this is something the EU need to step in and lay down some fairness on. It's got all the signs of a cartel the way it is at the moment.

Would actually fancy my chances bringing Liberty to court, any reasonable judge would surely see the injustice and they'd have no chance of justifying their premiums.

LemmyKilmister

Interested in this as well. Good luck.

Can you please share your findings?

flaneur

Considering Ireland's has one or the lowest accident rates in Europe, I don't understand these crazy rate hikes. Something is seriously wrong with the insurance industry or with claims here.

I don't see any big change in driver behaviour. Roads are better than ever, vechicles are mostly pretty new here too. This stuff needs to be thrown to the competition authority.

It's starting to get to the level this will really hurt the economy.

Liam McPoyle

flaneur wrote: »

Considering Ireland's has one or the lowest accident rates in Europe, I don't understand these crazy rate hikes. Something is seriously wrong with the insurance industry or with claims here.

I don't see any big change in driver behaviour. Roads are better than ever, vechicles are mostly pretty new here too. This stuff needs to be thrown to the competition authority.

It's starting to get to the level this will really hurt the economy.

We may have low accident rates but when we are paying out an average of near €20k plus legal fees for whiplash injuries vs an average of €2 or €3k for the likes of Germany or France then it's pretty clear where the main issue lies.

corsav6

Insured our little Fiat Fiorino 1.3jtd for €800 fully comp with kenco, only 2 others would quote and both were over 1k.

Insured a 150bhp Vauxhall Vectra Sri for €600 fully comp, Aviva I think.
Myself and the wife renew 1 month apart so when we ring to price around we get quotes for both on each vehicle and then go with the cheapest option.

So yes, vans are harder to insure privately. Most companies asked why I need a van and I said we were living rural and already had a car. The van is to be used as a runabout to collect fuel or bring the lawnmower to my mother's to cut her grass. They didn't care, most said I had no need for a van so they wouldn't quote.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Any update OP on finding a market in mainland Europe?

corcaigh1

cormie wrote: »

Haha, that sounds about right! Maybe I just need to phone a load of German companies and see if any will insure for vehicles/customers residing in Ireland!

Definitely feel this is something the EU need to step in and lay down some fairness on. It's got all the signs of a cartel the way it is at the moment.

Would actually fancy my chances bringing Liberty to court, any reasonable judge would surely see the injustice and they'd have no chance of justifying their premiums.

Terrible to hear about your business insurance, an absolute farce. Did that chap get back you, seems like he used a broker for the german insurance...

http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/news/roundup/articles/2016/06/15/4121590-car-owners-drive-views-to-centre-of-power/