Some questions reguarding Portlaoise PW depot

IE 222

Seems to be little information around reguarding the depot. Do IE construct they're own rails and sleepers here? How busy is this depot and what kind of work takes place here. I didn't realise just how large this site is. Do trains cross the Old Knockmay rd level crossing much as looking at streetview the rails seen to be used regularly. Can or do IE produce LUAS rails and sleepers.

L1011

They produce sleepers in Portlaoise but they have bought in from elsewhere in the past. I'm sure the plant could make Luas ones - but it doesn't. If it hasn't got the capacity to make all that IE need it would be pointless looking for that business. The Luas uses a mix of partial sleepers, slab track, road embedded track etc so it wouldn't be that similar.

I'm fairly sure they buy in all rail.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

They produce sleepers in Portlaoise but they have bought in from elsewhere in the past. I'm sure the plant could make Luas ones - but it doesn't. If it hasn't got the capacity to make all that IE need it would be pointless looking for that business. The Luas uses a mix of partial sleepers, slab track, road embedded track etc so it wouldn't be that similar.

I'm fairly sure they buy in all rail.

Is this their own operation as in if they were to sell sleepers to luas its profit for themselves. Would they have the ability to produce precast for the likes of platforms ect here as well.

end of the road

i presume the siding used to connect to this depot is part of the old line to kilkenny?

L1011

IE 222 wrote: »

Is this their own operation as in if they were to sell sleepers to luas its profit for themselves. Would they have the ability to produce precast for the likes of platforms ect here as well.

It's their own operation but as I said, it hasn't always been able to meet their own capacity. It's a sleeper plant not a general castings plant.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

Can or do IE produce LUAS rails and sleepers.

Rails can only be made in a steelworks.
The last steelworks in Ireland(at Haulbowline) only produced corrugated sheets for sheds and roofs, a rather less sophisticated product.

Traditionally we got our rails from the British Steel Corporation, made in their Workington plant.
More recently TATA has supplied rails for Irish Rail, they are an Indian company, one of the world's leading steel makers, which may have taken over the remains of BSC.
Other steelmakers in Europe, have also supplied rails to Ireland, perhaps Thyssen / Krupps.

Rails have to be made to a very high standard, otherwise air bubbles would cause fractures and derailments. Point blades especially are vulnerable.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

i presume the siding used to connect to this depot is part of the old line to kilkenny?

Yes, that is correct.

It was also the start of the Mountmellick branch. Trains used to reverse out of Portlaoise, beyond the junction, then go forward to Mountmellick.

IE 222

Do IE transport the rails when arrivng at port or are they transfered by road. Do they sell/send old rails back for recycling. Are any the track maintenance vechiles based there as well.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

Do IE transport the rails when arrivng at port or are they transfered by road. Do they sell/send old rails back for recycling. Are any the track maintenance vechiles based there as well.

Irish Rail transport rails from Belview port to Portlaoise on flat wagons, and from there around the country to wherever needed for relaying.

Gulfstream757

tabbey wrote: »

Irish Rail transport rails from Belview port to Portlaoise on flat wagons, and from there around the country to wherever needed for relaying.

How old is some of the track in use today? How often must it be changed?

L1011

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

How old is some of the track in use today? How often must it be changed?

I would doubt there's anything over 40 years now; but until the CWR came in to Sligo there were MGWR plates in place in some places so feck knows how old the rail was.

Rail wear depends on use and also alignment - straight level rail won't wear as much as track on a curve and incline. So there's no specific answer there. A lot of rail replacement is done because the sleepers need replacement when the rail itself may not.

Jamie2k9

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

How old is some of the track in use today? How often must it be changed?

Dublin-Cork is all new (10 years), some Waterford/Gakway and other single lines are much older because they don't get the same usage. A lot of current Waterford track was laid from around mid to late 1990's.

Only one section showing it's age today and it's the oldest. Would say it will be 6-10 years before they may have to renew.

Gulfstream757

L1011 wrote: »

I would doubt there's anything over 40 years now; but until the CWR came in to Sligo there were MGWR plates in place in some places so feck knows how old the rail was.

Rail wear depends on use and also alignment - straight level rail won't wear as much as track on a curve and incline. So there's no specific answer there. A lot of rail replacement is done because the sleepers need replacement when the rail itself may not.

Thanks! I notice around the Dublin City centre stations the sleepers are wooded are these older and not able to be changed due to busyness of the lines?

Gulfstream757

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Dublin-Cork is all new (10 years), some Waterford/Gakway and other single lines are much older because they don't get the same usage. A lot of current Waterford track was laid from around mid to late 1990's.

Only one section showing it's age today and it's the oldest. Would say it will be 6-10 years before they may have to renew.

Cherers! Where's the oldest?

Jamie2k9

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

Thanks! I notice around the Dublin City centre stations the sleepers are wooded are these older and not able to be changed due to busyness of the lines?

Wooden sleepers are around crossovers points mainly. Lots of new turnouts are concrete however that could well be because speeds of 90-100mph are in use. Other area's are either just likely used tracks and or the inspection runs have not picked up any issues to warrant a change yet.

Cherers! Where's the oldest?

On Waterford?, a few miles south of Cherryville Junction. Probably early 1990's.

tabbey

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

Cherers! Where's the oldest?

Traditionally new rail was laid on mainlines, whose rails were passed on to less important routes, then cascaded to branches then sidings.

I suggest the oldest rails are to be found on the Nenagh branch (Ballybrophy - Limerick), Limerick Junction to Waterford and maybe the Navan branch, although the latter carries the heaviest trains, but at 25 mph.

If you really want to see old rails, take a walk on some disused routes or yards.

Most of Ireland's railway network has the same rails as countries with far heavier axle loads; 50 or 54 kg per metre, maybe some 60 kg/metre. This was not always the case. 40 years ago, most of the Rosslare line had 85 or 87 lb per yard, less than 40 kg/metre.

Age of rails is less important in many other countries. Last time I was in Australia, in 2012, while stopped on a standard gauge train from Melbourne to Sydney, I noticed the track on the Broad gauge had rail dated 1949, and it was I think 94 lb/yard, in spite of having heavier trains, their equivalent of our 071 class weighing 124 tons compared withe our 99 tons. A lot depends on how well the track is maintained.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Wooden sleepers are around crossovers points mainly. Lots of new turnouts are concrete however that could well be because speeds of 90-100mph are in use. Other area's are either just likely used tracks and or the inspection runs have not picked up any issues to warrant a change yet.

The main reason why wood sleepers are used on points is because point work on concrete sleepers is incredibly expensive, less bespoke and somewhat more awkward and time consuming to lay when compared to timber sleepers. Secondary to this, points can be reused the odd time, which means giving some of the timber sleeper points a longer life.

There was actually a panel of track renewed at Connolly recently that got new timber sleepers.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The main reason why wood sleepers are used on points is because point work on concrete sleepers is incredibly expensive, less bespoke and somewhat more awkward and time consuming to lay when compared to timber sleepers. Secondary to this, points can be reused the odd time, which means giving some of the timber sleeper points a longer life.

There was actually a panel of track renewed at Connolly recently that got new timber sleepers.

The concentrate sleepers appear to be the renewal of choice on the Heuston side and it's happened at locations other than Cork line as well. While wooden ones can be reused and I have saw it happen do the concrete ones get any longer life?

They renewed the Ballyhale loop sometime last year (rails) and while I have not paid much attention, think the sleepers are still wood. Terminal stations will probally continue to get sodden renewals where possible I suspect.

IE 222

I think Navan branch was relay with ex cork rails meant to be in good condition overall.

L1011

Are concrete panels not reusable? In the somewhat recent past there used to be concrete sleepered panels sitting at the end of the carpark in Maynooth (this was also when there was an 071 left running overnight on weekends to run services to Drumcondra due to Connolly being closed, so not *that* recently) that looked rather used and for re-use.

Losty Dublin

L1011 wrote: »

Are concrete panels not reusable? In the somewhat recent past there used to be concrete sleepered panels sitting at the end of the carpark in Maynooth (this was also when there was an 071 left running overnight on weekends to run services to Drumcondra due to Connolly being closed, so not *that* recently) that looked rather used and for re-use.

They are reusable and have been recycled in the past. Given the massive track renewal programmes of the last 20 years, there hasn't been as much call for them on secondary routes. Most of the Limerick Junction to Waterford line and Nenagh brand was relaid with used track panels; Navan as well.

Some of the piles of track panels that you can see in the likes of Maynooth are there in case of emergencies.

Gulfstream757

Is that why passengers can't travel along Navan branch? The quality of the rail?

goingnowhere

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

Is that why passengers can't travel along Navan branch? The quality of the rail?

Does not meet passenger signalling standards

IE 222

Gulfstream757 wrote: »

Is that why passengers can't travel along Navan branch? The quality of the rail?

Quality of Navan line is good as far I know.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Quality of Navan line is good as far I know.

Signalling not up to scratch, freight only runs around 30mph.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Jamie2k9

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It couldn't support services in current form. One problem is I suspect it's signaled as a single block section. Major upgrades would be requiredto allow passenger running at speed.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It couldn't support services in current form. One problem is I suspect it's signaled as a single block section. Major upgrades would be requiredto allow passenger running at speed.

If the Nortern line wasn't so congested it would be a cheap upgrade in comparison to current Navan line plan. Has anyone priced the cost of upgrading the line.

Del.Monte

IE 222 wrote: »

If the Nortern line wasn't so congested it would be a cheap upgrade in comparison to current Navan line plan. Has anyone priced the cost of upgrading the line.

What is this current Navan line plan of which you speak?

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

If the Nortern line wasn't so congested it would be a cheap upgrade in comparison to current Navan line plan. Has anyone priced the cost of upgrading the line.

It wouldn't really, WRC II slow and wasteful investment.

What is this current Navan line plan of which you speak?

Line from M3 Parkway

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It wouldn't really, WRC II slow and wasteful investment.



Line from M3 Parkway

There's no plan to extend beyond M3 Parkway except in the minds of railway enthusiasts - is there?

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

There's no plan to extend beyond M3 Parkway except in the minds of railway enthusiasts - is there?

No immediate plans however a 34km extension serving Dunshaughlin, Kilmessan and two stations in Navan (Center and North) was proposed. They constructed the underpasses north of M3 Parkway while building the M3.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It wouldn't really, WRC II slow and wasteful investment.

I dont think a comparison can be drawn between the WRC and Navan line. Upgrading of current line would be a fraction of the cost of WRC or purposed route.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

I dont think a comparison can be drawn between the WRC and Navan line. Upgrading of current line would be a fraction of the cost of WRC or purposed route.

The comparision can be drawn from a journey time prospective, opening a railway which will be slower than the Motorway and existing bus services. The cheap cost isn't enough to justify such a route re opening.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The comparision can be drawn from a journey time prospective, opening a railway which will be slower than the Motorway and existing bus services. The cheap cost isn't enough to justify such a route re opening.

Its only a 20 odd mile section it doesn't need to stop at every station along the Northern line. 1:10hrs journey should be achievable and competitive with road.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Its only a 20 odd mile section it doesn't need to stop at every station along the Northern line. 1:10hrs journey should be achievable and competitive with road.

I would add 15 minutes to that time. Seriously, better spend extra on M3 side because it will be faster and better equipped to handle capacity.

h.gricer

tabbey wrote: »

Rails can only be made in a steelworks.
The last steelworks in Ireland(at Haulbowline) only produced corrugated sheets for sheds and roofs, a rather less sophisticated product.

Traditionally we got our rails from the British Steel Corporation, made in their Workington plant.
More recently TATA has supplied rails for Irish Rail, they are an Indian company, one of the world's leading steel makers, which may have taken over the remains of BSC.
Other steelmakers in Europe, have also supplied rails to Ireland, perhaps Thyssen / Krupps.

Rails have to be made to a very high standard, otherwise air bubbles would cause fractures and derailments. Point blades especially are vulnerable.

The rails are imported into Waterford and transported to this depot were they are welded and some rails specially ''coated with anti corrosion'' for inside of tunnels, got a tour a few years ago, a lot of specialised work goes on there regarding rails.
Regards
hg

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I would add 15 minutes to that time. Seriously, better spend extra on M3 side because it will be faster and better equipped to handle capacity.

My suggestion is allowing for speed increases upto 60-70 MPH on current line and easing congestion somewhat on the Northern line by using the savings from not going ahead with building the M3 line. What was the purposed travel time from Navan via M3. You also need to take into account of the extra PPT services now as well. Sligo line is very congested up to Glasnevin.