After BXD: The next big public transport project for Dublin?3

MJohnston

wakka12 wrote: »

PAris and London underground lines only run till 12.30..why would we be any different?
12.30 seems to be the norm for most places for metros

That's not entirely true, Paris Metro runs about an hour later at weekends (and starts back up at 5.30) and there's a Night Tube service https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube#on-this-page-0

Edit: I'd also note that Luas would require less staff to run than London Underground for example.

wakka12

G_R wrote: »

Why strive for mediocrity? Let’s go the whole hog and have opening hours that other cities are jealous of. And increase DB and Luaa hours while we’re at it!

Its not worth it for a company to keep lines running and drivers working that late into the night. They close at 12.30 because very few people use it after that, its sensibility not mediocrity

strandroad

wakka12 wrote: »

PAris and London underground lines only run till 12.30..why would we be any different?
12.30 seems to be the norm for most places for metros

Last arrivals land at midnight, add time for luggage retrieval. First departures are at 5AM, passengers need time for security before that. Not to mention the staff.
If it's going to take 30 minutes (?) to take the metro from town to the airport and vice versa, we are looking at an almost round the clock operation there, with perhaps 2h downtime.

Idbatterim

Why can't the Luas run every half hour from 12:30 -60am or thereabouts in the short term?

They could charge more for it like they do with the late night times it is running over the Xmas periods at weekends...

MJohnston

If Metro ends up fully automated as has occasionally been hoped, it could run all night with very little extra staffing costs.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

I wasn't talking about building more roads - far from it. At most, widening in a few places, giving (more) priority to the orbital routes compared to the crossing ones. We don't disagree on modal shift, or the prioritising of public transport over private. The question was about banning cars from the city centre completely, which I don't think is possible without a half decent orbital route.

No, that just encourages movement of traffic from one location to a nearby location. The communities of inner Dublin suburbs don't want more traffic, they want reliable orbital and radial public transport.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

If they are serious about it being an airport connection, it has to be 24 hours, or close to it. Early flights start leaving Dublin shortly before 6, and flights arrive at night until 1am, and this isn't accounting for delays.

By construction start time it'll be 2021, by then driverless cars will be on the roads, so no reason why an entirely grade separated line cannot be diverless. London Docklands built a driverless light rail system in the 1980s. With driverless operation there is no reason why it shouldn't be 24hr.

cgcsb

wakka12 wrote: »

PAris and London underground lines only run till 12.30..why would we be any different?
12.30 seems to be the norm for most places for metros

They have a 24hr bus service though. We'll probably never have that because public transport here is ran by unions. Our metro will be brand new though and can operate a state of the art driverless system.

plodder

All this ideological stuff of cars vs public transport is wrong imo. Practical measures are what's needed. There are a lot of places where cars encroach on bus lanes that they shouldn't. Eg. buses get held up on the Clontarf road every morning caused by the cars in the bus lane wanting to turn left on to Alfie Byrne rd. The gardai had an effort a while back to stop this, but few motorists even understood what they were at, and the next day it was back to normal.

They need to put a physical barrier in place to stop that encroachment. A consequence of that will be worse tailbacks for cars on the Clontarf rd. So, they just have to get more buses on the road to utilise the bus lanes more. Give temporary licenses to private operators, and leap-card only service - or whatever has to be done. Until something better comes along, car drivers will continue to sit in their cars (maybe leaving earlier and earlier) for as long as they see huge queues of people standing at bus stops, being left behind by full buses.

If the supply of bus services can't be increased quickly, then we should allow (hov) cars with passengers to use bus lanes. I used to think enforcement would be a problem here, but enforcement is a problem with the current rules anyway. It's basically non existent.

budhabob

MJohnston wrote: »

If Metro ends up fully automated as has occasionally been hoped, it could run all night with very little extra staffing costs.

as currently envisaged, it cannot be automated bar for some sections which are segregated. The NTA have spouted the potential for automated operation but they are incorrect.

cgcsb

Dublin Buses are already equipped with forward facing cameras, no? it's a simple matter of purchasing an off the shelf software package that can recognize number plates. Start dishing out fines. I would imagine it would be a profitable exercise. I was driving into Dublin on St John's Road last week and it appeared that the bus lane just didn't apply to dozens of cars. You lads want to use the bus lane, 300 quid a pop I say.

Idbatterim

budhabob wrote: »

as currently envisaged, it cannot be automated bar for some sections which are segregated. The NTA have spouted the potential for automated operation but they are incorrect.

it should all be segrgated then! the lie that they used was that the original scheme was to expensive, they are so concerned with bang for buck! so use this opportunity to automate the line, what will the staff cost be with the original 90 sec interval per tram per direction?

the staff costs would be significant at that frequency!

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

it should all be segrgated then! the lie that they used was that the original scheme was to expensive, they are so concerned with bang for buck! so use this opportunity to automate the line, what will the cost be with the original 90 sec interval per tram per direction?

the staff costs would be significant at that frequency!

The cost savings of redesigning Metro North have been wiped out due to economic loss to congestion etc

The savings for Metro North will be wiped out again multiple times when the inevitable "Metro 2035 Capacity Upgrade" will have to be undertaken

Idbatterim

marno you are preaching to the choir on the inflation, dont get me going on it, but it is the lie that they have used to shelve it. But if this is to be redesigned, which is obviously beyond a joke, if it were to be automated v the original scheme, it would be one huge bonus!

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

marno you are preaching to the choir on the inflation, dont get me going on it, but it is the lie that they have used to shelve it. But if this is to be redesigned, which is obviously beyond a joke, if it were to be automated v the original scheme, it would be one huge bonus!

I know I am but there's more than the choir reading

Having it automated would be one thing; but ensuring it's not in such a unionised stranglehold as the CIE companies is more important. Automation would be great but then there would be talk of it having no job related benefits, which could be a political issue

Idbatterim

marno21 wrote: »

I know I am but there's more than the choir reading

Having it automated would be one thing; but ensuring it's not in such a unionised stranglehold as the CIE companies is more important. Automation would be great but then there would be talk of it having no job related benefits, which could be a political issue

I see it as setting down a massive marker, a marker brought about by these regular as clockwork strikes and ignorant as f**k unions and the drivers etc. the irony is, it would stop new workers getting these jobs, but I honestly think a system that wont be delivered until nearly 2030 in this joke of a country when it comes to strikes, it would be lunacy not to have it driverless, with the second bite of the apple!

LegallyAbroad

plodder wrote: »

All this ideological stuff of cars vs public transport is wrong imo. Practical measures are what's needed. There are a lot of places where cars encroach on bus lanes that they shouldn't. Eg. buses get held up on the Clontarf road every morning caused by the cars in the bus lane wanting to turn left on to Alfie Byrne rd. The gardai had an effort a while back to stop this, but few motorists even understood what they were at, and the next day it was back to normal.

They need to put a physical barrier in place to stop that encroachment. A consequence of that will be worse tailbacks for cars on the Clontarf rd. So, they just have to get more buses on the road to utilise the bus lanes more. Give temporary licenses to private operators, and leap-card only service - or whatever has to be done. Until something better comes along, car drivers will continue to sit in their cars (maybe leaving earlier and earlier) for as long as they see huge queues of people standing at bus stops, being left behind by full buses.

If the supply of bus services can't be increased quickly, then we should allow (hov) cars with passengers to use bus lanes. I used to think enforcement would be a problem here, but enforcement is a problem with the current rules anyway. It's basically non existent.

As someone who does that commute route once maybe every 6 months (for the odd specific reason), and either cycles or gets PT the rest of the year, the people in cars every morning are tapped in the head.

It takes triple the time of cycling and double the time of PT and is infuriating. Those people will never leave their cars if doing that every morning doesn't make them do so.

Idbatterim

As someone who does that commute route once maybe every 6 months (for the odd specific reason), and either cycles or gets PT the rest of the year, the people in cars every morning are tapped in the head.

It takes triple the time of cycling and double the time of PT and is infuriating. Those people will never leave their cars if doing that every morning doesn't make them do so.

the network here is so rubbish, that for many people if they already have a car, they are not going to ditch it. yes if you work in town and are close to a luas & have to pay for parking, ditching it makes sense.

Its one thing if your bus will take you from near door to door, its connecting on infrequent routes etc where nobody in their right mind will ditch a car unless they are broke or like making their lives difficult...

We need MN and DU, they will be very quick, connect multiple modes, have large capacity.

I will agree that on street parking on many streets should go, for a start, to facilitate bus lanes and cycle lanes...

LegallyAbroad

Idbatterim wrote: »

As someone who does that commute route once maybe every 6 months (for the odd specific reason), and either cycles or gets PT the rest of the year, the people in cars every morning are tapped in the head.

It takes triple the time of cycling and double the time of PT and is infuriating. Those people will never leave their cars if doing that every morning doesn't make them do so.

the network here is so rubbish, that for many people if they already have a car, they are not going to ditch it. yes if you work in town and are close to a luas & have to pay for parking, ditching it makes sense.

Its one thing if your bus will take you from near door to door, its connecting on infrequent routes etc where nobody in their right mind will ditch a car unless they are broke or like making their lives difficult...

We need MN and DU, they will be very quick, connect multiple modes, have large capacity.

I will agree that on street parking on many streets should go, for a start, to facilitate bus lanes and cycle lanes...

I've lived in about four of the inner suburbs, north and southside, and walking, cycling, buses, dart, or luas (or a combo of luas and bus) has always been multiples quicker than driving.

Anyone working in town and living south of Clontarf to Castleknock or North of Sandymount to Walkinstown shouldnt be driving. In this specific instance, there's a cycle lane from Sutton to the end of fairview, and there's a bus lane lane the whole way in to town with a bus in the morning every ten minutes, which also goes by a DART station.

I wish people would name these places that you need to drive from to get to town (if you're going east-west that's a different story).

But, get, if they want to sit on traffic for an hour, not my problem.

Zebra3

marno21 wrote: »

The cost savings of redesigning Metro North have been wiped out due to economic loss to congestion etc

The savings for Metro North will be wiped out again multiple times when the inevitable "Metro 2035 Capacity Upgrade" will have to be undertaken

Yeh but it might swing a seat in Leitrim.

BowSideChamp

After BXD: The next big public transport project for Dublin?

We need to run light rail on the commuter rail network - the Maynooth and potentially the Naas line. The tracks are there, we just need to use broad gauge trams. Maximise the infrastructure we currently have.

Light rail is efficient and allows for 2min intervals. There is no need for timetables. That is why the luas is so popular.

Light rail will allow for spur lines to be built off the existing tracks to the Blanchardstown Centre, Liffey Valley. Extension can be built to bring the line from the Docklands Station up to OCS.

plodder

The economics are quite stacked against public transport unfortunately as there are huge sunk costs associated with motoring, whereas it is the marginal costs (fuel only) that public transport has to compete against. Maybe, motor tax should be shifted to an extra fuel levy (though certain interests would be understandably opposed to that), but it would level the playing field a bit.

Another major problem here, is the lack of group fares. In Munich, they sell day tickets for 2-5 passengers at the same price as 2 individual day tickets. If you don't do that, families (or groups in general) aren't going to use public transport given that the cost of operating a car is the same for one person as for five. Get people out of their cars at weekends first, and they will start to consider doing it during the week also.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

I know I am but there's more than the choir reading

Having it automated would be one thing; but ensuring it's not in such a unionised stranglehold as the CIE companies is more important. Automation would be great but then there would be talk of it having no job related benefits, which could be a political issue

The Job related benefits aren't the few hundred drivers who might operate for a short time before the whole world is covered in driverless transport technology. Rather it is the tens of thousands of people who will be employed by companies that will set up near the route, secure in the knowledge that their staff will be able to access their office without disruption from union greed.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

The economics are quite stacked against public transport unfortunately as there are huge sunk costs associated with motoring, whereas it is the marginal costs (fuel only) that public transport has to compete against. Maybe, motor tax should be shifted to an extra fuel levy (though certain interests would be understandably opposed to that), but it would level the playing field a bit.

Another major problem here, is the lack of group fares. In Munich, they sell day tickets for 2-5 passengers at the same price as 2 individual day tickets. If you don't do that, families (or groups in general) aren't going to use public transport given that the cost of operating a car is the same for one person as for five. Get people out of their cars at weekends first, and they will start to consider doing it during the week also.

That, and just start handing out car bans, which DCC are afraid to do for some reason, but it will have to happen. The Croke Park situation is a disgrace with culchies not even considering taking buses and trains. They should make the area around croke park car free on match days bar local access.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

That, and just start handing out car bans, which DCC are afraid to do for some reason, but it will have to happen. The Croke Park situation is a disgrace with culchies not even considering taking buses and trains. They should make the area around croke park car free on match days bar local access.

In fairness, I think you'll find every form of public transport, including long distance trains, are well used on match days at Croke park.

marno21

I often give out about Croke Park match days that public transport capacity doesn't match the demand on the day.

Cork v Waterford in August, Luas was so busy that it was full by the time it got to Heuston. There was queues at Red Cow to enter the tram. There should have been extra trams put on on days like these. Similar story with trains from the south, frequently booked out well in advance. Very little extra capacity put on.

Many people in the south would take the train but not the bus because the train doesn't have to fight through match traffic after the game

Idbatterim

plodder wrote: »

The economics are quite stacked against public transport unfortunately as there are huge sunk costs associated with motoring, whereas it is the marginal costs (fuel only) that public transport has to compete against. Maybe, motor tax should be shifted to an extra fuel levy (though certain interests would be understandably opposed to that), but it would level the playing field a bit.

Another major problem here, is the lack of group fares. In Munich, they sell day tickets for 2-5 passengers at the same price as 2 individual day tickets. If you don't do that, families (or groups in general) aren't going to use public transport given that the cost of operating a car is the same for one person as for five. Get people out of their cars at weekends first, and they will start to consider doing it during the week also.

THIs hits the nail on the head. I drive from ranelagh to rathcoole every day. I'm flexible with the hours I work. Here is my option, drive it in twenty minutes ish in light traffic or bus into town and take the 69 out which does a mini tour of west Dublin! Real toughie! I'd say it would ad an extra hour to my commute if not slightly more, that would be over two extra hours per day!

cgcsb

it probably doesn't suit the wurkers at CIÉ to match capacity to demand on those days.

markpb

plodder wrote: »

buses get held up on the Clontarf road every morning caused by the cars in the bus lane wanting to turn left on to Alfie Byrne rd. The gardai had an effort a while back to stop this, but few motorists even understood what they were at, and the next day it was back to normal. They need to put a physical barrier in place to stop that encroachment.

I've long been a fan of the bus lanes in Paris. They've done something similar on the N1 inbound at Whitehall but with ugly flappy wands instead.

Paris


Whitehall

keane2097

cgcsb wrote: »

it probably doesn't suit the wurkers at CIto match capacity to demand on those days.

I thought you started off saying the culchies won't use the public transport.