General MMA Chat/News mk3 - **No Spoilers Use Event Threads**

walshb

Well, I am not talking about fans..

I am talking about the fighters. Being labeled UFC HW champion is the ultimate prize/accolade. For Jones, or any other decent sized LHW, that should be their goal..

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

Guys, I wasn’t meaning top prize in terms of money or sales. I meant in terms of it being the top of the chain..the HW champ is D man..

So you're essentially saying that the HW title is the heaviest one? That was already obvious.

In every other way though the HW belt is in no way the "Top" prize in the UFC. It's a different sport to boxing.

The belt Jones currently holds has MUCH more prestige than the HW belt.

walshb wrote: »

Well, I am not talking about fans..

I am talking about the fighters. Being labeled UFC HW champion is the ultimate prize/accolade. For Jones, or any other decent sized LHW, that should be their goal..

Again, you're confusing MMA with boxing. The point you're making simply holds no water.

eagle eye

MrStuffins wrote:

Again, you're confusing MMA with boxing. The point you're making simply holds no water.

I disagree. If you have fit guy at HW then for me it's the most important belt. Back when.you had Randy Couture it was the no .1 belt and if Jones moves up it might become the top weight again.

Dirkziggler

walshb wrote: »

Well, I am not talking about fans..

I am talking about the fighters. Being labeled UFC HW champion is the ultimate prize/accolade. For Jones, or any other decent sized LHW, that should be their goal..

Not really much better stacked divisions then HW.

MrStuffins

eagle eye wrote: »

I disagree. If you have fit guy at HW then for me it's the most important belt. Back when.you had Randy Couture it was the no .1 belt and if Jones moves up it might become the top weight again.

That was 12 years ago. And Randy beat Tim Sylvia for that belt. It was an awful time at HW. Remember Sylvia's fight v Monson?

LHW was definitely the most prestigious belt at that time. Chuck was defending against Rampage etc. HW has never been the No.1 belt in modern UFC

walshb

Whatever about importance of the belt, fans views etc, the HW division is the big men. They are the best on earth. Can (supposedly) beat all comers..

Same in boxing and wrestling; and in lifting weights, the HW men lift the heaviest..that is what we look for. Strongest, fastest, best...

Not comparing it to boxing. It’s obvious. The same view..

For me, Jones will not go down as greatest: That tag belongs to great big man. The best HW...

He needs to go to the top..then he can be considered.

Talent and skills I’d rate Jones the greatest..

VW 1

walshb wrote: »

For me, Jones will not go down as greatest: That tag belongs to great big man. The best HW...

He needs to go to the top..then he can be considered.

Talent and skills I’d rate Jones the greatest..

Who's considered the best, if Jones doesn't go to HW? For a long time Demetrius Johnson was in the conversation, despite being so light. The best clearly doesn't mean the heaviest champ possible.

walshb

VW 1 wrote: »

Who's considered the best, if Jones doesn't go to HW? For a long time Demetrius Johnson was in the conversation, despite being so light. The best clearly doesn't mean the heaviest champ possible.

The best is the best big man...he beats all comers..

There is also p4p...

You can never be the greatest if you are not a HW..

Tazzimus

walshb wrote: »

The best is the best big man...he beats all comers..

There is also p4p...

You can never be the greatest if you are not a HW..

Well that's just a load of bollocks.

You beat the best talent to be the best, not be the biggest dude, that's not how it works.

HW has always been shallow on talent, especially compared to the other divisions.

walshb

Tazzimus wrote: »

Well that's just a load of bollocks.

You beat the best talent to be the best, not be the biggest dude, that's not how it works.

HW has always been shallow on talent, especially compared to the other divisions.

True..

Hence my ref to p4p...

The best of all is the HW, as he beats all..

SureYWouldntYa

walshb wrote: »

The best of all is the HW, as he beats all..

The HW champ might only beat everyone else because of his size, not as much to do with skill or fighting ability as when on a level playing field, ie the same weight

That's why you need to take every weight class on its own merit and the critiquing of pound for pound is a thing as opposed to the list just being the champions from heaviest to lowest

Brock Lesnar would probably beat GSP in a fight, but GSP would be the far superior fighter since Lesnar could only do so because of size

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

The best is the best big man...he beats all comers..

There is also p4p...

You can never be the greatest if you are not a HW..

Absolute rubbish!

walshb

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

The HW champ might only beat everyone else because of his size, not as much to do with skill or fighting ability as when on a level playing field, ie the same weight

That's why you need to take every weight class on its own merit and the critiquing of pound for pound is a thing as opposed to the list just being the champions from heaviest to lowest

Brock Lesnar would probably beat GSP in a fight, but GSP would be the far superior fighter since Lesnar could only do so because of size

P4p.......

Mentioned it several times...

MrStuffins

walshb wrote: »

For me, Jones will not go down as greatest: That tag belongs to great big man. The best HW...

For you. Because your opinion is based on influences from other sports. Weight lifting, boxing etc. As you already said.

But this isn't the weight lifting forum. MMA is a much more nuanced sport and factors to consider when deciding who the best ever is are more plentiful than the idea that the best is decided by who had the biggest number on a bathroom scale.

Jamiekelly

walshb wrote: »

The best is the best big man...he beats all comers..

There is also p4p...

You can never be the greatest if you are not a HW..

SureYWouldntYa

walshb wrote: »

P4p.......

Mentioned it several times...

So P4P is a thing

But you can't be the best unless you're a HW

Right...... :rolleyes:

Tazzimus

walshb wrote: »

True..

Hence my ref to p4p...

The best of all is the HW, as he beats all..

Just, no.
That's not how this works.
Being the heavyweight doesn't automatically make you the best.

MrStuffins

Tazzimus wrote: »

Just, no.
That's not how this works.
Being the heavyweight doesn't automatically make you the best.

If only somebody had invented a sport to find out if a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy.......

coleslaw

MrStuffins wrote: »

If only somebody had invented a sport to find out if a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy.......

the hurdles only you have to run underneath them

Dirkziggler

Walsh I understand you don't understand how it works so here. Pedro Sauer Lance bachelor 1 a champ BJJ 1 a champ body builder Lance 100 lbs heavier at 255lbs.

Pedro tapped him out.

Fall_Guy

Dirkziggler wrote: »

Walsh I understand you don't understand how it works so here. Pedro Sauer Lance bachelor 1 a champ BJJ 1 a champ body builder Lance 100 lbs heavier at 255lbs.

Pedro tapped him out.

Ah I don't think that's being fair to the point walshb is making at all. Obviously skill trumps size if the larger opponent has much much lower skill level.

But at the same time, surely we can all accept why the "baddest man on the planet" moniker tends to go to the Heavyweight Champ... The way I would look at it is, if the UFC were to run an open weight comp, you would usually expect the winner to be a Heavyweight.

Now as it happens, I actually do think the skill disparity between Jon Jones and most heavyweights is great enough that he would do very well against most heavyweights right now, without adding an ounce of muscle, but Jones is an outlier. Likewise, Cormier has shown that he can compete at the very top level in both weights, but despite his body composition he has always been best suited to heavyweight, and probably wouldn't have entertained dripping to lightweight at all of it wasn't for his teammate being ufc champ at the time of his arrival there.

In any sport across the board, skill level goes down as the size of the competitor goes up in all cases bar a few outliers. But it still holds that in most cases a good big 'un beats a good little' un. UFC heavyweight division hasn't always been the division that drew the most viewers (though during Brocks reign it certainly did) but I still completely get where walshb is coming from on this one.

eagle eye

MrStuffins wrote:

For you. Because your opinion is based on influences from other sports. Weight lifting, boxing etc. As you already said.
But this isn't the weight lifting forum. MMA is a much more nuanced sport and factors to consider when deciding who the best ever is are more plentiful than the idea that the best is decided by who had the biggest number on a bathroom scale.

I think you are misunderstanding him a bit.
If you send the best p4p up to heavyweight they will get killed by the bigger men.
It's true that they are better in that they will destroy the lighter guys.
At least I think that's his point.

MrStuffins

eagle eye wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding him a bit.
If you send the best p4p up to heavyweight they will get killed by the bigger men.
It's true that they are better in that they will destroy the lighter guys.
At least I think that's his point.

I get his point. I just disagree.

The current LHW champ has two wins over the current HW champ. Is Cormier more likely to be considered GOAT because he won the HW belt and Jones didn't?

Of course not.

Tazzimus

MrStuffins wrote: »

If only somebody had invented a sport to find out if a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy.......

Maybe a Brazilian could come up with something.

Autecher

MrStuffins wrote: »

If only somebody had invented a sport to find out if a smaller guy can beat a bigger guy.......

Ah they did that decades ago. Small guys get whooped.

dashoonage

Tazzimus wrote: »

Maybe a Brazilian could come up with something.

juj
jujis
jits



karate!

Subcomandante Marcos

dashoonage wrote: »

juj
jujis
jits



karate!

Hahahaha. The mother was in my flat recently and I had a gi drying on a clothes horse on my balcony and was like "oh you're still at the karate, that's nice dear".

I'll karate you ffs.

how.gareth

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Hahahaha. The mother was in my flat recently and I had a gi drying on a clothes horse on my balcony and was like "oh you're still at the karate, that's nice dear".

I'll karate you ffs.

Now that’s a proper Irish mammy!

Subcomandante Marcos

how.gareth wrote: »

Now that’s a proper Irish mammy!

In her defence, I have family members who are highly involved in traditional okinawan karate and that's the extent of her knowledge of martial arts. I also had a Black belt when I was a teenager so she still links everywhere to that.

MrStuffins

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

In her defence, I have family members who are highly involved in traditional okinawan karate and that's the extent of her knowledge of martial arts. I also had a Black belt when I was a teenager so she still links everywhere to that.

In all the years that I've been watching MMA, my mother still calls it "your wrestling".

"Were ya up late watching yer wrestling?"