Reloading in Ireland

cosieman

Hi is it possible to legally reload ammo in Ireland i heard stories from my shooting friends about people who reload in Ireland what hoops do i have to jump through to reload because quite frankly ammo prices in Ireland is insane.

tikkamark

The only legal way is to join midlands shooting range in blueball and you have to be shooting fclass to qualify for it and afaik you can only reload on the grounds there.
By the time you pay membership there for a few years you’d have spent enough to pay for a hell of a lot of factory Ammo.
Pure bs we can’t do it on a wider scale but that’s nanny state Ireland for you

gunny123

Someone here commented not too long ago, that the DOJ offered reloading back to us and it was knocked on the head by some of the shooting orgs, probably because they could not find a way to make money from it, judging by past experiences.

BattleCorp

I think it was mentioned here on boards within the last year that two other organisations had applied for permission to reload. I must have a look for it.

Anyway, I don't know who those organisations are or what the status of their applications is.

The requirements that Midlands had to follow to get permission to reload puts a huge expense on the reloading process. Prohibitively so.

Grizzly 45

You actually CAN reload in Ireland outside the Midlands programme too.
But it's an "Irish solution to an Irish problem "situation.
IOW there is legislation in place to allow the "manufacturing of ammunition" under one of the acts in 2000.BUT it is set up for Industrial manufacturing on a commercial scale!! Perfect sense for setting up an ammo making plant, but total overkill for someone who wants to reload 20 deer rounds a season.And the Govts past and present are not going to change it for us either.:(

I tried to take it as far as I could go as a civilian to see how far you could go with it, as I had an isolated premises, which is a prerequisite for setting up this kind of operation according to the act.But when you get to, first off requirement a 4,000 euro fire alarm system.....4k is a lot of manufactured ammo....:):rolleyes:

And lets not even get started on getting powder and primers legally into the ROI...:rolleyes:

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You actually CAN reload in Ireland outside the Midlands programme too.
But it's an "Irish solution to an Irish problem "situation.
IOW there is legislation in place to allow the "manufacturing of ammunition" under one of the acts in 2000.BUT it is set up for Industrial manufacturing on a commercial scale!! Perfect sense for setting up an ammo making plant, but total overkill for someone who wants to reload 20 deer rounds a season.And the Govts past and present are not going to change it for us either.:(

I tried to take it as far as I could go as a civilian to see how far you could go with it, as I had an isolated premises, which is a prerequisite for setting up this kind of operation according to the act.But when you get to, first off requirement a 4,000 euro fire alarm system.....4k is a lot of manufactured ammo....:):rolleyes:

And lets not even get started on getting powder and primers legally into the ROI...:rolleyes:

Even shotgun ammunition is getting harder to get in bulk, god alone knows what it will be like after brexit. The only time i really wanted to reload was in the days i had a centrefire pistol, and ammo could be scarce. But seeing how expensive decent centrefire hunting rifle ammo has become, i would do it if it were a possibility.

The doj must remember this :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-explosive-catastrophe-an-irishman-s-diary-on-the-kynoch-disaster-in-arklow-in-1917-1.3222659

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Someone here commented not too long ago, that the DOJ offered to reload back to us and it was knocked on the head by some of the shooting orgs, probably because they could not find a way to make money from it, judging by past experiences.

Yup, no doubt they would offer a three-month course full of plagiarised materials and padding, for ridiculous money.

For those interested, I could get an English speaking German instructor who could teach, examine and qualify anyone interested in reloading in a weekend trip to Frankfurt in ammo reloading and black powder for sports shooting, for about 150 euros per head. 95% of the course under German law is actually about EU, UN and German safe handling, storage and transport of powder. 5% of it is actually on "How to make a bullet.":eek:
It wouldn't be much different here either.So obviously no money in it....:P

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Even shotgun ammunition is getting harder to get in bulk, god alone knows what it will be like after brexit. The only time i really wanted to reload was in the days i had a centrefire pistol, and ammo could be scarce. But seeing how expensive decent centrefire hunting rifle ammo has become, i would do it if it were a possibility.

The doj must remember this :rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-explosive-catastrophe-an-irishman-s-diary-on-the-kynoch-disaster-in-arklow-in-1917-1.3222659

Interesting story...For those interested in very unintentional big bangs.Check out a book called Fire Flash and Fury by Ragnar Benson.
It's the story of the Worlds biggest non-nuke munitions industrial explosions.Stories like the Halifax munitions explosion[also in 1917!]....never heard of that one here...But yes the act makes as I said utter sense for a munitions plant.Not for one of us reloading a few rounds in the kitchen for a shoot on the following weekend.500 rounds of ammo or the equivalent in powder cooks off in a fire,difference??

Cass

cosieman wrote: »

Hi is it possible to legally reload ammo in Ireland

Yes.

i heard stories from my shooting friends about people who reload in Ireland what hoops do i have to jump through to reload

Basically:

• License from the DoJ
• Secure bunker for storage
• Secure separate bunker for actual reloading
• Approved sockets and lighting (anti static i believe and it costs a fortune)
• Alarm, CCTV, Monitoring, etc.
• Import permits for the propellant and primers
• AGS/DF escort when bringing in the propellant/primers

because quite frankly ammo prices in Ireland is insane.

This comes up quite often, but the answer is the same. The cost won't go down when reloading. At least not at first.

You have the initial outlay for the equipment. Cheapest is €300 and there is no upper limit as it's as much as you're willing to spend. However leave the cost of the gear aside for the moment and look at the components.

• Your average 1kg tub will do over 300 rounds of 308 (more for other calibers and less for yet more). Say €120 for the propellant.
• Now you need 300 primers so that is €15 (3 boxes)
• If you don't have brass you need 300 cases so that is an average of €150 and can go to €300+.
• You also need 300 bullets and again at an average cost of €40 per box up to €65 for expanding ammo. So €120.

So now you have spent anywhere between €405 to €650 for 300 rounds. That is between €1.35 per round and €2.15.

Once used you have the brass and only need propellant, primers and bullets. So now the cost goes down. So average it at between €0.95 to €1.75 per round.

It'll now stay at this price, per round, as you always need to buy new primers, propellant and bullets. Depending on how long your brass lasts every two to 10 reloads you'll need to buy new brass. So now the price goes back up to the €1.35 to €2.15 per round mark and you start again.

The above cost is very roughly worked out and it can be slightly cheaper to a hell of a lot more expensive. However it only covers the cost of the components and does not cover the time aspect. You have to:

• Size the brass
• Prime
• Batch the bullets
• Weight/throw the charges
• Get your seating depth
• Fine tune
• Test fire
• Check for pressure signs and other problems
• Load all your ammo

Once the first lot is all gone you need to:

• Tumble the brass and clean primer pockets
• Re-size the brass with possible trimming
• Batch the bullets
• Weight/throw the charges
• Prime
• Seat the bullets

Also take into account if you change primers or even batches of propellant you will have to check the round is the same as the last batch.

Not saying its not worth it as the end result will give exceptional performance from most any rifle, but the only fun part if the trigger pull. Everything else is hours of work and when you've gone through 300 brass you'll look like you have claws for hands unless, as said above, you spend extra on your equipment to buy an electronic cleaning tool instead of a manual tool.

Cass

tikkamark wrote: »

The only legal way is to join midlands shooting range in blueball ................(

As Grizzly_45 said it can be done legally outside the MNSCI.

Also as Grizz said the conditions the DoJ impose make that a prohibitively expensive route to go and that is only recent. Years back, and still, you could get a reloading license and load away. This can still be done, but the new conditions mean it'll cost thousands, dare i say tens of thousands, to meet the requirements they now demand. IOW another way to prevent a legal pursuit by pricing out of reach of most people.

gunny123 wrote: »

Someone here commented not too long ago, that the DOJ offered reloading back to us and it was knocked on the head by some of the shooting orgs,..........

Not some, all of them refused it. The key word there is refused. Not only did they not apply they actually refused it when offered (to apply).

To be clear the NRAI are the ones that sought reloading not he MNSCI range. As the NRAI are based in the Midlands that is where the facilities were built. A small and possibly pedantic point, but an important one because it explains why the reloading can only be done for F-Class/long range and not all members.

After the NRAI's submission the DoJ left the application process open for other groups to apply. None did to the point some when asked directly if they wanted to apply refused. The applications were also open to individuals and not just organisations.

After the initial 6 month application time frame, and the 3 month extension only one group had applied and that was the NRAI. Another group applied shortly after but as they had no range and no means to build the facilities required i believe their application never made it through.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I think it was mentioned here on boards within the last year that two other organisations had applied for permission to reload. I must have a look for it.

Yup heard that too, but no word on it's progress although i see no reason they should be refused.

The requirements that Midlands had to follow to get permission to reload puts a huge expense on the reloading process. Prohibitively so.

None of the cost of building the facilities were placed onto the members. However the security and methods for importing and shipping of the propellant was made in such a way that the cost of shipping it did increase the price from what it might have been had you been able to buy it at source.

alanmc

Cass wrote: »

A small and possibly pedantic point, but an important one because it explains why the reloading can only be done for F-Class/long range and not all members.

So this I didn't know. I was under the impression that all members had the opportunity to avail of the reloading facilities once the course was done.

I must admit, I'd love to reload. And not because of any cost saving reasons. I'm pretty tired of finding a brand of ammo that works well in my rifle only to go back to the RFD to be told that they have none left.

So then I have to hunt down the same ammo from other RFDs or try out some other brands/weights.

A steady and consistent supply of factory ammo would solve my woes either if I'm honest.

Cass

Perhaps i explained that poorly. All members have, as you said, the opportunity to avail of the reloading facilities.

I just don't want people thinking you can join the midlands range and start reloading for your hunting rifles, shotgun, pistols, etc.

However there are a host of disciplines within the NRAI which allow for a large array of ammo so the variety of rounds loaded are many.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

Not some, all of them refused it. The key word there is refused. Not only did they not apply they actually refused it when offered (to apply).

Why on earth did they do that ? Sometimes i think the ones supposed to standing up for Irish shooters are the ones that do the most damage to them.

Grizzly 45

Expediency....The same person who shall not be named here who threw cowboy action shooting and helped throw IPSC under the bus, as he and his organisation didn't consider them "serious shooting sports."

Grizzly 45

alanmc wrote: »

I must admit, I'd love to reload. And not because of any cost saving reasons. I'm pretty tired of finding a brand of ammo that works well in my rifle only to go back to the RFD to be told that they have none left.

So then I have to hunt down the same ammo from other RFDs or try out some other brands/weights.

A steady and consistent supply of factory ammo would solve my woes either if I'm honest.

TBH I think in the cost involved in reloading here, were one to do it by the book, you and I and anyone else would be better off pooling our money and contracting a main supplier to bulk us in a specific brand suitable to our specific rifles of a ,say a thousand rounds each and paying the transport costs and a dealer admin fee from mainland Europe. As I said 4k buys a lot of ammo or one very advanced fire alarm for your bunker out in the middle of nowhere where you are reloading. :eek:
If you were to do it also by the rule book here in Ireland, you might as well then open an ammo plant and sell it to us here and provide some jobs as well.You would be qualified and authorised to do so under the Act.It's that crazy:eek:

Dai John

Used to reload 12 bore years ago in UK, there were no restrictions at that time. You could buy shot and primers etc. over the counter.I had a Bowman press and could do about 120 an hour. It worked out that you saved about 40% but as time went on it was just as easy and cheap to buy in bulk (1,000 rounds) so packed it in.You would get the odd misfire ( about 1 in a 100) so a double barrel was the best option.Shotgun powder was quite safe, if you threw a handful on the fire it would only sizzle.

Uinseann_16

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Basically:

• License from the DoJ
• Secure bunker for storage
• Secure separate bunker for actual reloading
• Approved sockets and lighting (anti static i believe and it costs a fortune)
• Alarm, CCTV, Monitoring, etc.
• Import permits for the propellant and primers
• AGS/DF escort when bringing in the propellant/primers

Full ammunition doesn't require that escort does it could you purchase large bore ammo like 20mm or similar in bulk?im sure there has to be some stuff similar to that left around the old bloc countries and salvage powder from those thats how hodgdon started is it not?

Walter Mittys Brother

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Cass wrote: »

Basically:

• License from the DoJ Piece of paper
• Secure bunker for storage considering what MNSCI store understandable but for me to have a kg at home. Really??
• Secure separate bunker for actual reloading In no other country that citizens do it is that a requirement
• Approved sockets and lighting (anti static i believe and it costs a fortune)In no other country that citizens do it is that a requirement
• Alarm, CCTV, Monitoring, etc. Lots of lads have this already
• Import permits for the propellant and primers For importer sure MNSCI are doing this already
• AGS/DF escort when bringing in the propellant/primers considering what MNSCI store understandable but for me to have a kg at home. Really??

Surely some of the shooting organisations could get this sorted instead of fighting with each other & coming up with ways to shaft us for cash?

Grizzly 45

East bloc military powder can be corrosive as Hell.Hence AKs are chrome lined bores..
You are then running into ITAR /UN and EU BS and paperwork about military weapons and ordinance disposal thereof and moving that Trans EU.. And especially to a neutral country like Ireland..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cass

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Full ammunition doesn't require that escort does it ...........

Nope.

could you purchase large bore ammo like 20mm or similar in bulk?

No idea for a few reasons.

• Not sure where you'd get such ammo
• Its over 8mm so restricted
• Might be viewed as prohibited
• You'd need a license before buying it or importing.

im sure there has to be some stuff similar to that left around the old bloc countries

Again, no idea.

and salvage powder from those thats how hodgdon started is it not?

And here is where you run into trouble.

Loaded/full ammo is not classed the same as the components that make them up. If you take a round for any rifle you own right now you're fine. As soon as you removed the bullet you now has propellant, primer, case and bullet as components. Your license only covers you for the case and bullet as the propellant and primers need separate, explosive, licenses to possess.

Its stupid that we can be "trusted" with them all packaged up, but not as individual components, but there you go none the less.

Now the same applies to your 20mm rounds. Fine if you have all the above, but as soon as you start to pull the bullets, and have the components you need the various licenses.

Its why you can order the reloading gear, cases and bullets with no problem, but try the propellant and primers and you have the local AGS or CPO (worse case scenario the ARU) knocking on your door.

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Surely some of the shooting organisations could get this sorted ...........

I believe, as of today, two more ranges have put in requests for authorisation to run reloading from the ranges which can only be a good thing.

.........instead of fighting with each other & coming up with ways to shaft us for cash?

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you meant he steps the DoJ are making us jump through? Who is fighting with whom?

Grizzly 45

Basically:
License from the DoJ Piece of paper Yes indeed and for free,but with follow on actions...

Secure bunker for storage considering what MNSCI store understandable but for me to have a kg at home. Really??
Yup.Under the explosive and munitions act of 1999/2000? Which is the governing legislation on manufacturing ammunition,albeit on a commercial and industrial basis..it has to be in asecure storage ala MNSCI

Secure separate bunker for actual reloading In no other country that citizens do it is that a requirement In some yes!! Put it like this you won't be reloading ammo in your high rise apartment in Berlin ! The storage requirements and the fact it is in a multi-residential area is a killer straight off.Go down to your local gun club and reload there.. Even we were almost denied the permit because our German house is a two family complex.We were lucky that we had an old ww2 air raid shelter for a basement and that was considered strong enough for powder storage.


Approved sockets and lighting (anti static i believe and it costs a fortune)In no other country that citizens do it is that a requirement As above

Alarm, CCTV, Monitoring, etc. Lots of lads have this already
Agreed over kill.But the legislation concerning ammo manufacture demands it

Import permits for the propellant and primers For importer sure MNSCI are doing this already Yes,can be done once the DOJ/AGS/Your local council are happy with the storage conditions.

AGS/DF escort when bringing in the propellant/primersconsidering what MNSCI store understandable but for me to have a kg at home. Really??

Yup! Find someone to buy it off first in NI, apply for the explosive, yes we know it is a propellant, but tell that to the PTB permit.The DOJ is OBLIGED under EU law to inform NI that you are bringing in X kilos of powder to the ROI and will be buying it at XY dealers.So the PSNI,if they feel the risk is warranted,will supply you with an escort back over the border to hand you over to AGS..You get to pay for both escorts..

Cass

Not meaning to be a dick, but if you're quoting me in the above can you break it up so i know whats mine and what you are replying to? Don't want to be replying to my own comments because you'll get a lot of "i already said that". Use the mulitquote icon for multiple posts, Its the icon with the + and quote mark like this +" . If you want to break up a single post just type

[/quotee] (i stuck in an extra "e" on the second quote so it wouldn't actually quote) on either end of the bit you want to quote.

Cheers big ears.

gunny123

Its a pity muzzleloading is hamstrung with all this rubbish, i always wanted to get into blackpowder shooting, but then again under the current rules, you would walk around with the components on you, powder, primer and shot, so illegal.

Also the stupid "bore size/calibre = power" thing, with blackpowder firearms being large bore, means they are restricted before you start.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Not meaning to be a dick, but if you're quoting me in the above can you break it up so i know whats mine and what you are replying to? Don't want to be replying to my own comments because you'll get a lot of "i already said that". Use the mulitquote icon for multiple posts, Its the icon with the + and quote mark like this +" . If you want to break up a single post just type

[/quotee] (i stuck in an extra "e" on the second quote so it wouldn't actually quote) on either end of the bit you want to quote.

Cheers big ears.

Wasnt quoting you at all...Had written half the post and gone away for 40mins, finished the post and hit send, and hadn't seen your post.Until now.

swift220

Why cant all of us in the shooting community come together get all our names on paper saying that we want reloading the same as our european neighbours have and send it to councilors ministers and who ever else.

Cass

swift220 wrote: »

Why cant all of us in the shooting community come together get all our names on paper saying that we want reloading the same as our european neighbours have and send it to councilors ministers and who ever else.

The opportunity for everyone to apply for it was there 8 years ago. Over nearly 9 months (in total) each and every association, NGB, group, Organisation, etc. refused it (bar one, and a handful of individual applications). So the PTB saw it as we didn't want it.

Now we have more people interested, but one thing is still a problem. Trying to get the Government to give a second bite at the apple is both a hard process and a slow one. Get onto your reps and have them address it at the next FCP.

Cass

In case it was missed in my reply above:

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Surely some of the shooting organisations could get this sorted ...........

I believe, as of today, two more ranges have put in requests for authorisation to run reloading from the ranges which can only be a good thing.

.........instead of fighting with each other & coming up with ways to shaft us for cash?

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you meant he steps the DoJ are making us jump through? Who is fighting with whom?

Grizzly 45

swift220 wrote: »

Why cant all of us in the shooting community come together get all our names on paper saying that we want reloading the same as our european neighbours have and send it to councilors ministers and who ever else.

Well, it was an FG election promise in the election 8 years ago.To review the explosives act in regards to reloading..:rolleyes:

Go to change.org and start a petition on it, we just need about 100k worth of signatures and then need the govt to review standing legislation to make an exemption for non-industrial reloading of ammo.

Then, probably the most problematic, get our shooting reps to all sing off the same hymn sheet, and not have somebody decide this could be another money spinner of a course, with books worth of padding, and months worth of classroom time...See HCAP saga for examples...

Remember the Germans, who are regular bears for their paperwork and certs and H&S can do the entire course in one 8 hour school day...From covering legislation to how to reload a bullet.We should be no different here.Should we ever get that far...

Then convince the PTB,that we don't need a concrete block house out in the back garden, or a house miles away from the nearest road to reloading 100 rounds of deer ammo once a season,and that if we are safe enough to hold completed rounds of ammo, why are we not capable of holding the same in its component parts?

If you want the different laws EU wide on reloading at home, just ask and I can get Firearms United to give us a comprehensive EU roundup on it too.;)

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

In case it was missed in my reply above:

I believe, as of today, two more ranges have put in requests for authorisation to run reloading from the ranges which can only be a good thing.

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you meant he steps the DoJ are making us jump through? Who is fighting with whom?

I do not think it is a good thing. It should not be restricted to ranges. There are a lot of rifle shooters who are not
or do they want to be a member of a range. Not to mention the unnecessary expense of same.

If there was a political will to allow us to do it (as in enough votes) DOJ would be told to sort it by the Minister.

As for the fighting why this needs clarification considering the content on some threads on this forum is surprising to say the least.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

In case it was missed in my reply above:

I believe, as of today, two more ranges have put in requests for authorisation to run reloading from the ranges which can only be a good thing.

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you meant he steps the DoJ are making us jump through? Who is fighting with whom?

Yes Cass, but that is reloading at ranges, why not reload at home like the rest of the civilised world ?

minktrapper

Out of curiosity. Any of ye hear of any negative results with home loading in the U.K..