Wiring cat6 to each light switch

listermint

I'm presently doing extensive refurbishment and running cat 6 to each rooms some for points some for HDMI ballasts .

I've also started to put cat 6 to light switches as would like to control room lighting centrally as an option. However is there a point to this? Should I abandon the cat 6 to light switch locations.

What systems will work , any recommendations or is this just a waste of time and cabling

srsly78

Why not just use wireless to control smart bulbs?

M5

LightwaveRF much easier option for lights anyway?

listermint

That's my question really. Should I just not bother running any more cat6 to light switches. Is there a point. It's not the trouble of it. It's a question of is there systems that can or would use it

wexfordman2

listermint wrote: »

That's my question really. Should I just not bother running any more cat6 to light switches. Is there a point. It's not the trouble of it. It's a question of is there systems that can or would use it

There are lots of systems that can use it, I have my entire house wired with cat5 to each light switch. I actually have no 220v at my light switches at all. The cat5 is not used as Ethernet, rather the pairs are used as inputs to control relays, which the lights are wired to.

Examples of systems that would use this type of configuration include

Velbus (which is the system I am using), cbus, eib, the new low cost sonoff 4ch pro switches also can be a very cheap and effective way of smarting your light switche (prob about ten euro per room).

I use momentary light switches, so while my entire lighting system is smart, you would not know by looking at the switches.

My velbus system cost about 50 euro per room for the modules, so that's a guidleong of the cost comparison to other systems, sonoff would be even cheaper.



Also, take a look at loxone, and idratek two other systems using similar wiring to light switches

listermint

Looking at the sonoff it kinda confirms I don't need the cat6 to achieve what I need. Makes the cat6 redundant.

Would that be fair assessment?

Can achieve what I want with 220v cabling in place

wexfordman2

listermint wrote: »

Looking at the sonoff it kinda confirms I don't need the cat6 to achieve what I need. Makes the cat6 redundant.

Would that be fair assessment?

Can achieve what I want with 220v cabling in place

Why does the sonoff make you think you dont need it ?

Am thinking here of the sonoff 4ch pro, where you would sire the cat5 to the sonoff test inputs ?


I am a bit biased I suppose, and again, possibly becuase of the wiring system I have in my house, but if I was to do it again, a complete rewire, I would do it the exact same way, cat5 to each light switch. That wiring topology would allow me to deploy sonoff, cbus, eib, velbus, loxone, idratek etc, any one that I chose.

I always say, avoid wireless solutions if at all possible.

Metric Tensor

I know a Loxone setup that uses low voltage switches with CAT6 to each lightswitch - but no live or neutral at all because they are done back at the board.

listermint

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Why does the sonoff make you think you dont need it ?

Am thinking here of the sonoff 4ch pro, where you would sire the cat5 to the sonoff test inputs ?


I am a bit biased I suppose, and again, possibly becuase of the wiring system I have in my house, but if I was to do it again, a complete rewire, I would do it the exact same way, cat5 to each light switch. That wiring topology would allow me to deploy sonoff, cbus, eib, velbus, loxone, idratek etc, any one that I chose.

I always say, avoid wireless solutions if at all possible.

I may be crazy but if I'm not mistaken the sonoff 4ch pro is installed in for example rail in switch board. Takes 220v in. And distributes direct to 4 lights 220v and controls via relay.

This is done via app or remote.

But I don't see where cat6 and wall mounted light switches fit in with that.

Or am I missing something obvious?

I really need a switch in each room for visitors who won't have app installed etc.


So for that system how does the cat 6 assist?

wexfordman2

listermint wrote: »

I may be crazy but if I'm not mistaken the sonoff 4ch pro is installed in for example rail in switch board. Takes 220v in. And distributes direct to 4 lights 220v and controls via relay.

This is done via app or remote.

But I don't see where cat6 and wall mounted light switches fit in with that.

Or am I missing something obvious?

I really need a switch in each room for visitors who won't have app installed etc.


So for that system how does the cat 6 assist?

The problem.with your setup, is it is entirely dependent on wifi, you have no backup, the switches cannot be manually controlled. I also don't think it covers you long term from the point of view of future proofing, ue how long will the sonoff pro be available, what if it fails and you can't get a replacement ?

The sonoff has 4 on board push button switches, which give you manual control of the relays. You can adapt the sonoff to wire 4 inputs to the sonoff and wire these back to your light switch via cat 5, and use momentary light switches, and this gives you full manual control board no matter what happens.

It's a hack of the sonoff, but once you do it, then your wiring topology suits lots of different hardware solutions, so your not restricted to sonoff for example.

My point being that it wiring in cat5 to the switches, back to your fuseboard gives you lots of flexibility both now and in the future.

The sonoff wiring is very like my velbus system (4 channel din mounted modules with 4 inputs for low voltage momenatery switches).

Not pushing velbus or anything, just the wiring solution, I can forward you a document I did up on the wiring of it for info if you want.

It's oldish now, and has a lot about an alarm panel etc but ignore that and look at the wiring topology. The only difference is that sonoff uses WiFi for smart control and my system uses a dedicated bus

https://drive.google.com/a/glenegare.com/file/d/0B1zlDoqP2HdxUGVJdnY3WGtYamM/view?usp=drivesdk

listermint

That was my key question can the sonoff be wired for input from switches. I haven't found any schematics indicating this.

My outputs would be conventional single bedroom lights on each channel 220v

Thanks for the document , will look it over.

My setup doesn't appear to suit low voltage out for my lights .

So wondering if hacking low voltage input for wall switch is possible

wexfordman2

listermint wrote: »

That was my key question can the sonoff be wired for input from switches. I haven't found any schematics indicating this.

My outputs would be conventional single bedroom lights on each channel 220v

Thanks for the document , will look it over.

My setup doesn't appear to suit low voltage out for my lights .

So wondering if hacking low voltage input for wall switch is possible

By all accounts it can, although I don't have one. If you take a cat5, 4 pairs and wire each pair up to the Puch buttons on the sonoff that will do it. A bit of soldering required I believe.

The push buttons would be low voltage but the relay would be 220v

The switches would alos have to be momentary, but loads of options there, and will look and work almost like a standard light switch.

tweek84

You have to do a bit of butchering to get the sonoff 4ch to accept the cables.

You have to wire to the system that you will be installing, if you tell us what system you will be installing we will be able to provide a wiring solution.

Alternatively you could run your regular power cables down to the switch plus a neutral and also a seperate conduit with the cat6 or other network cable (KNX etc).

If i was installing a sonoff 4 ch to control my lights i would also put in a switch to turn off the 230v leading powering it.

I don't have experience with the systems mentioned, but i have hardwired lighting, wired leax lighting control, wired KNX, wired a few systems using dali bus but i wouldn't have experience with them connecting to smart controls like google or amazon they all used their own pc.
I have sonoff in my house which i am controlling with my phone and also through an echo dot

paulbok

listermint wrote: »

That's my question really. Should I just not bother running any more cat6 to light switches. Is there a point. It's not the trouble of it. It's a question of is there systems that can or would use it

Having refurbed a house 2 years ago, and didn't run any cat cables anywhere at all, I am very much regretting it for lighting control (no neutral to switches), wifi (thick walls means I need a few relays for wifi, a few lan ports would have been so much better for this) & media (e.g. I now want Ethernet instead of wifi to each tv for wake on lan control) reasons.

If you are in a position to easily run the cables now, put them in. You never know what tech is around the corner that you may be damn glad you have cables ready for.

"Better looking at them, than looking for them".

listermint

I think ive decided to continue the wiring cat6 (and neutral too) id imagine Sonoff will make a switched input version soon that doesnt require soldering the the board, (not that i mind doing that) but no rush. Il have everything in place. judging from their forums and feedback there is alot asking for it so id assume its something they are really considering.

srsly78

paulbok wrote: »

Having refurbed a house 2 years ago, and didn't run any cat cables anywhere at all, I am very much regretting it for lighting control (no neutral to switches), wifi (thick walls means I need a few relays for wifi, a few lan ports would have been so much better for this) & media (e.g. I now want Ethernet instead of wifi to each tv for wake on lan control) reasons.

If you are in a position to easily run the cables now, put them in. You never know what tech is around the corner that you may be damn glad you have cables ready for.

"Better looking at them, than looking for them".

You absolutely do need ethernet for the things you have pointed out (network backbone), but can probably live without ethernet to the lights.

It's not an either/or situation with wifi vs cables - both are needed.

bk

srsly78 wrote: »

It's not an either/or situation with wifi vs cables - both are needed.

Yes Ethernet is key to high quality wifi. Ethernet backhaul to multiple wifi access points gives you very good quality wifi coverage. And also keeping as many devices on Ethernet that can take it helps keep the strain off the wifi network.

Cat6 can also be very useful for carrying HDMI over Cat6.

Good idea to also wire coax for satellite/cable, though it is starting to become less important with the likes of Sky Q (though a quality Ethernet/wifi network comes into play then).

However I'm less convinced of the need of Cat5/6 for light switches. HA command and control for devices like these should use incredibly small data packets that should be easily handled by low power wireless mesh networks like Zigbee/Zwave.

Having said that, using Ethernet can help avoid any issues with wireless interference which are only likely to increase in the future. So if you have the money, then no harm. But I wouldn't prioritise it over Ethernet for devices and wifi or Ethernet for HDMI or running coax. If you can't stretch to the cost of Ethernet for switches, I wouldn't worry about it too much I'd say you would be fine with zigbee/zwave or even wifi controlled switches.

wexfordman2

But BK, isn't the likes of the sonoff 4 ch pro a perfect example of how cat5 to light switches makes perfect sense ?

Is there any other way you can automate a lighting circuit for less than 10 euro ? ( Basing this on 30 euro of a 4ch pro ?

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

But BK, isn't the likes of the sonoff 4 ch pro a perfect example of how cat5 to light switches makes perfect sense ?

Is there any other way you can automate a lighting circuit for less than 10 euro ? ( Basing this on 30 euro of a 4ch pro ?

Sure, but how much are you paying for the cat5/6 wiring? It can all quickly add up.

You can also just fit the sonoff inline controllers to a standard lighting circuit, without the cost of the cat5/6

Pity the sonoff wall switches are so damn ugly or they could also be a great, cheap solution.

Thing is, I'm not at all convinced that basic on/off control is all that useful. I find the real benefit of Hue is the more advanced features like white ambiance/colour/advanced routines, etc.

Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of wiring over wireless and if you can afford it, go for it. I just think if money is tight, I wouldn't prioritise it. I'd list my wiring priorities as:

1) Ethernet backhaul for multiple wifi AP's throughout house
2) Ethernet backhaul for wired devices (PC's, etc.).
3) Multiple coax from roof and/or side of house (for virgin) to at least central "server" room.
4) Cat6 for HDMI distribution from central location.
5) Hardwiring for home security sensors (things are also changing in this area).
6) Maybe coax to other rooms (becoming less necessary)
7) Cat 5/6 to switches

I think the last is certainly nice to have, but I wouldn't put it before all the above.

In my place, I've two ethernet points in each room, which is great, wish I had more. I also have 5 and sort of have 3 and 4

But I don't have 7, just Hue Zigbee (along with Ikea, Xiaomi and SmartThings Zigbee devices) for "switches" and lighting and it seems to work rock solid for me.

Again, I'm not saying don't wire up switches, just make sure to do all the others first.

tweek84

I agree i would prefer if sonoff had more than just the basic on/off dimming would be a nice feature.
Running cat 6 cables shouldn't be overly expensive it should be roughly the same cost as running a t+e of course that is depending on the electrician doing it.

@bk are you running HDMI over cat6? What converter are you using? I thought it was very expensive? It would be very handy for me as i have one or two places i would like to run HDMI to.

@wexfordman2 in relation to using cat5 to switches it is a bad example really, you have to butcher the sonoff to accept the cables. If god forbid something went wrong and a fire started i would not like to try explain to the insurance company why you had soldered cables on to a control board.

Does anyone know if it is possible to set sonoff switches so that when they first energize that they send voltage out? Without having to flash the software. If this is possible then the single inline controllers can be used with normal wiring and the light switch on the wall would be a master off switch.

wexfordman2

tweek84 wrote: »

I agree i would prefer if sonoff had more than just the basic on/off dimming would be a nice feature.
Running cat 6 cables shouldn't be overly expensive it should be roughly the same cost as running a t+e of course that is depending on the electrician doing it.

@bk are you running HDMI over cat6? What converter are you using? I thought it was very expensive? It would be very handy for me as i have one or two places i would like to run HDMI to.

@wexfordman2 in relation to using cat5 to switches it is a bad example really, you have to butcher the sonoff to accept the cables. If god forbid something went wrong and a fire started i would not like to try explain to the insurance company why you had soldered cables on to a control board.

Does anyone know if it is possible to set sonoff switches so that when they first energize that they send voltage out? Without having to flash the software. If this is possible then the single inline controllers can be used with normal wiring and the light switch on the wall would be a master off switch.

Hi tweak, BK,

I'm not specifically referring to sonoff as the only solution (I don't use it), I am talking about the wiring topology and the concept of having cat5 at your location light switch. Sonoff is not the only product that would use a similar withing topology.

There are numerous products out there which are designed to work using cat5 at the wall switch, including not just on/off functionality but also dimming etc.

I suppose it's something we won't neccessarily agree on, but I don't think it should be dismissed. My approach would be, wireless solutions such as zigbee etc for refits, but wired cat5 for new or rewires.

I think hue is a great product but is limited boh by price and functionality. I genuinely dislike the idea that you cannot have a standard wall switch for hue, and I also think, havinf a room with say 7 gu10's is just too expensice to do with hue.

I have about 35 gu10's in my house, spread over 5 circuits. Hue would cost in excess of 700 euro to do that (average price of say 20 euro per bulb), my velbus system cost me 250 euro roughly for that. And ith the hue you still have to have the standard wall switch covered over and iNstall hue wireless swithes in their place.

That's an approximation btw, there is some give and take in both prices

bk

tweek84 wrote: »

@bk are you running HDMI over cat6? What converter are you using? I thought it was very expensive? It would be very handy for me as i have one or two places i would like to run HDMI to.

I'm not, this is what I meant by sort of. My study/server room is close to my living room so I got away with a very long HDMI cable. Though it is definitely at the extreme of HDMI spec. For longer distances HDMI over cat6 is better, which is why I recommend that for most people doing a new build/refurb.

I actually have a pair of cat5e baluns which I was going to use for another room, but I never bothered setting it up, I've more or less moved totally IP for that room now (bedroom, not really used much anyway).

cat6 baluns aren't expensive, about €40, check out Amazon. If you can two cat 6 cables for each balun is better. 1080p, if you want to do 4K/HDR then forget about it.

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I suppose it's something we won't neccessarily agree on, but I don't think it should be dismissed. My approach would be, wireless solutions such as zigbee etc for refits, but wired cat5 for new or rewires.

Oh absolutely, not to be dismissed at all, I'm just saying not the end of the world if you don't, other options exist. I'd just prioritise ethernet to every room first. If the cost of cat5/6 to switches is low, then absolutely go for it.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I think hue is a great product but is limited boh by price and functionality. I genuinely dislike the idea that you cannot have a standard wall switch for hue, and I also think, havinf a room with say 7 gu10's is just too expensice to do with hue.

I have about 35 gu10's in my house, spread over 5 circuits. Hue would cost in excess of 700 euro to do that (average price of say 20 euro per bulb), my velbus system cost me 250 euro roughly for that. And ith the hue you still have to have the standard wall switch covered over and iNstall hue wireless swithes in their place.

Well in terms of cost, the new Ikea €7 GU10's give you the same level of control as Velbus, on/off/dimming, at a very low cost with the advantage of the richness of the Hue ecosystem (routines such as sunset, motion sensors, dimmer switches, IFTTT/GH/Alexa, etc.).

You can put these GU10's where colour/white ambiance isn't important and then put colour bulbs where it is handy.

I mean €7 is only a euro or two more then a standard LED. I suspect the cost of zigbee lights will continue to drop over the next 5 years and will make the cost argument for switch control over dumb bulbs controlled by a switch go away.

Your 35 GU10's would cost just €245 with Ikea bulbs, yes you would still need hub + switches, but then you probably spent at least €200 for those bulbs anyway, so it would all average out. Plus how much they all that extra cat5 wiring cost, specially if you need to pay a spark to do it and not yourself.

Ikea Cost:
Hub - €32
35 GU10's - €245
Switch - €18 (I don't know how many rooms you have).

Velbus:
35 dumb LEDs - €200 (at least)
Velbus - €250
cat 5 to each switch - ?
Momentary switches - ?

Not necessarily cheaper if starting from scratch.

You do have a point about cost, but I think it is quickly going away and their isn't such a gap anymore.

As for the point about standard wall switches, to be honest, having lived with Hue for months now, you quickly forget about switches all together. We have the Hue dimmers in each room, but very rarely used.

Motion sensors for hall/bathrooms/study/utility rooms.
Sunset routine for living room.
Voice control for bedrooms (Hey Google, bedtime, hey google, goodnight).

And I have to say visiting family and friends and baby sitters have had no problems using the Hue dimmer switches.

Of course everyone has differing opinions and different needs and requirements, so not dismissing wired switches at all, I just think it is important to show the different options so folks who are doing a new build can make up their own mind for their own needs.

Though again I'll stress put as much cat6 in as you can for ethernet.