So 4 travellers walk into a bar.....

end of the road

davmol wrote: »

You really don't have a clue.You can be a traveler apologist all you like but you haven't dealt with these people

the good news is that i really really do have a clue. i have dealt with travelers. both good and bad.

davmol wrote: »

Peoples opinions are based on their experiences and 99% of my experiences with a wide range of traveler families and their actions leave me with a very negative view of them.If you don't think its PC or you think im a bigot because of the consistent frequent negative experiences of travelers then so be it.

i don't think you are a bigot if you tar the whole group on the actions of some, i know you are. the state knows you are. the law knows you are. so it's not me making the rules here, i just happen to agree with them.

davmol wrote: »

From my exposure to travelers if I could I would make it a law that premises can legally refuse travelers if they suspect there may be trouble

not viable, as it would have to be extended to blacks, gays, and other minorities. if you support discrimination against 1 group, i find there is a high chance that you support it for all minority groups.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

I'll gladly admit that I always try to judge a person by the content of their character, except travellers, I learned not to do this the hard way.

Story time;

My nan has this border collie, Zac, lovely dog, she doesn't have sheep so hes a bit useless, cant go ratting like the Russels and cant chase anything like the hounds.

Zac hates travellers, I mean absolutely despises travellers, if he sees a caravan from the road he turns into a Hellhound, absolute bouncing off the walls barking mad.

We found this out as my nan stumbled upon a group of travellers in her shed, when trying to roust them, one pushed her over.

Zac went nuclear, I mean absolutely nuclear.

He's been getting the finest cuts since.

The same group only came back round once more, dog was let out, he went absolutely schizo. That group hasnt been back around since.

Zac had finally found his purpose.

yeah. we can safely say that the dog who hates travelers is made up. oh i'm sure your nan has a dog, and i'm sure it is probably true that there were travelers trying to rob her shed. but a dog who goes nuts when it sees a caravan or a traveler. nope. good attempt though.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You see the problem with PC bullshít is that it labours under the false assumption that all things are equal.

All laws are not created equal. We are all law breakers, each and every one of us, but downloading the latest Taylor Swift album is not the same thing as downloading kiddie porn.

Refusing to let travellers into your pub is not the same thing as smashing that pub up.

Sometimes you need to exercise some common sense, not just follow arbitrary rules!

refusing to let travelers into your pub is the same as refusing to let blacks or gays into your pub. all the time you need to follow the laws when operating a business, there is no negotiation or leeway on that fact.

kildare lad

I remember about 15 years ago, a load of travellers moved to my town. They started going down to the snooker hall there. They were loud, rude and they would try and not pay for tables that they played on. People stopped going down there. So after two weeks the owner turned it into a members only club. He gave any settled person who came in a membership card so when the travellers turned up he refused them saying that its now a members only club and memberships full up. It work out fine. I remember the local nightclub at the time let them in one night and there was absolute murder. The bouncers eventually got them all out and we were locked inside, they tried to ram the doors open. The garda came and didnt even arrest them. If you or i did it we'd be nicked. Not all travellers are like that but a very high percentage of them are. They're there own worst enemy.

CosmicJay

end of the road wrote: »

the good news is that i really really do have a clue. i have dealt with travelers. both good and bad.




i don't think you are a bigot if you tar the whole group on the actions of some, i know you are. the state knows you are. the law knows you are. so it's not me making the rules here, i just happen to agree with them.




not viable, as it would have to be extended to blacks, gays, and other minorities. if you support discrimination against 1 group, i find there is a high chance that you support it for all minority groups.

Does that mean you agree travellers are more predisposed to commit crimes?

I'll read Zac your posts and see if he goes mental, I bet he will.

I probably cant comment on if he actually hates travellers, but when family comes up with a 6 berth he has an absolute meltdown. So he does, in fact, hate caravans.

Also you*, you can safely say.

This is a bit of an unfiltered thought, but Id say Padraig Nally hasnt had to buy a pint down his local in years.

Omackeral

end of the road wrote: »

if you support discrimination against 1 group, i find there is a high chance that you support it for all minority groups.

Many people in here said they've zero issue with gay people/black people/minoroties. I find most folks are kinda in the same wavelength there. With Travellers and opinions of them, that seems to differ. Why do you think that might be?

AnneFrank

CosmicJay wrote: »

Does that mean you agree travellers are more predisposed to commit crimes?

I'll read Zac your posts and see if he goes mental, I bet he will.

I probably cant comment on if he actually hates travellers, but when family comes up with a 6 berth he has an absolute meltdown. So he does, in fact, hate caravans.

Also you*, you can safely say.

This is a bit of an unfiltered thought, but Id say Padraig Nally hasnt had to buy a pint down his local in years.

Ask Zac has he any milk for the Baba and see what he does ?

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

Does that mean you agree travellers are more predisposed to commit crimes?

no, i don't.

sbsquarepants

You think the laws about discrimination are...

sbsquarepants wrote: »

PC bullshít

You are correct about one thing, not all laws are equal. But strangely enough, you think laws to prevent damage to pubs are more important than laws that protect groups against bigotry and intolerance. I'd rank them the other way around, surely history tells us a lot more damage is caused by the latter?

end of the road

Omackeral wrote: »

Many people in here said they've zero issue with gay people/black people/minoroties. I find most folks are kinda in the same wavelength there. With Travellers and opinions of them, that seems to differ. Why do you think that might be?

it's because travelers are the last group where it is socially exceptible to discriminate against them. irish society did it to other groups in the past, and i think the old ideals haven't quite left us yet, even though most of us do recognise there is no place for discrimination.
remember, when society discriminated against blacks, gays, single mothers and so on, they often used the bad things, or what society believed to be the bad things, that some people who happened to fit into those groups did to justify their discrimination.

punisher5112

85% unemployment but yet they all have homes and nice cars.....


Find it laughable to be honest.

beertons

I remember working a traveller wedding in a hotel in Maynooth years ago. The functions manager called in sick that day, as it was he who took the booking. We did 16,000 that day on the bar alone, was better than a lot of weeks. Tried to open a few doors and Windows, as it was a hot summers day, and the smell was killing me.

"Hey boy, close that door. Do ya think I was born in a barn." I didn't know where to look.

Buses were arranged to take the party away. Bride and groom were first on the bus. Took years to be paid for that function.

Dr Brown

punisher5112 wrote: »

85% unemployment but yet they all have homes and nice cars.....


Find it laughable to be honest.

Yet CAB don't seem interested where they get their wealth from.

end of the road

Dr Brown wrote: »

Yet CAB don't seem interested where they get their wealth from.

i believe cab do cary out work in relation to this. granted they need to do more, but that is a resourcing and funding issue.

falinn merking

end of the road wrote: »

i believe cab do cary out work in relation to this. granted they need to do more, but that is a resourcing and funding issue.

And just to add to the line of thinking if the government was interested in collecting that 13 billion from Apple we might have a lot more funding.

And forgive the pun that would be low hanging fruit.

Heres Johnny

I think end of the road should change his name to side of the road

1eg0a3xv7b82of

end of the road wrote: »

i believe cab do cary out work in relation to this. granted they need to do more, but that is a resourcing and funding issue.

Are you joking?
it has nothing to do with funding or similar and everything to do with the optics.
Can we all just be honest. Its xmas soon.

end of the road

Reign Shy Woodchuck wrote: »

Are you joking?
it has nothing to do with funding or similar and everything to do with the optics.
Can we all just be honest. Its xmas soon.

of course it's to do with funding and resourcing. cab and revenue are not in the business of letting people away with fraud.

Il Fascista

EOTR is one of the most persistent people you'll find on the internet. As mad as they are, they deserve some respect for that.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

end of the road wrote: »

of course it's to do with funding and resourcing. cab and revenue are not in the business of letting people away with fraud.

But they are based in dublin, maybe they just dont know where rathkeale is.

dd972

Dr Brown wrote: »

Yet CAB don't seem interested where they get their wealth from.

Don't think it'd be traceable for the most part, I wouldn't imagine many of them having birth certificates, C.V's or the accoutrements of settled existence, plus they flit between various parts of Ireland and the U.K, all the dire areas of outer London near Heathrow and the M25 have a substantial Traveller presence. I'd guess that they'd also flit between their immediate and extended families for work or feuding purposes.

They live in a cash economy as well, would you fancy getting past a site load of them to find out where the loot is and if they're paying tax, no, me neither!

Dr Brown

dd972 wrote: »

, would you fancy getting past a site load of them to find out where the loot is and if they're paying tax, no, me neither!

They do seem to be above the law. Even the Police are afraid to enter traveller sites.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062223/Police-REFUSE-enter-travellers-site-safety-fears.html

JackTaylorFan

4 travellers walk into a bar - everybody else quickly heads for the exit <--- reality

ShooterSF

Deleted User wrote: »

You think the laws about discrimination are...




You are correct about one thing, not all laws are equal. But strangely enough, you think laws to prevent damage to pubs are more important than laws that protect groups against bigotry and intolerance. I'd rank them the other way around, surely history tells us a lot more damage is caused by the latter?

What if the damage to the pub included staff working there? I've had 2 pint glasses (on separate occasions) miss my head by inches and one threat of a pool cue across my skull. All from "the last group where it is socially exceptible to discriminate against them". Strange that.

end of the road

ShooterSF wrote: »

What if the damage to the pub included staff working there? I've had 2 pint glasses (on separate occasions) miss my head by inches and one threat of a pool cue across my skull. All from "the last group where it is socially exceptible to discriminate against them". Strange that.

well, you could call the gards, who assuming there is enough evidence, will pass the evidence to the dpp, who will prosecute if the evidence is sufficient. throwing objects such as a glass at someone and threatening to belt a pool cue across someone's head are correctly, criminal offences.

ShooterSF

end of the road wrote: »

well, you could call the gards, who assuming there is enough evidence, will pass the evidence to the dpp, who will prosecute if the evidence is sufficient. throwing objects such as a glass at someone and threatening to belt a pool cue across someone's head are correctly, criminal offences.

On one of the occasions I did, as a full brawl had broken out and I had to. It was a small function I had the pleasure of manning myself and strangely there were no witnesses. However had either of those glasses connected the guards would be of little use to my face. The guards do however make an effort to warn our pub if there is a traveller funeral or similar in the town so I don't hold anything against them.

JackTaylorFan

CosmicJay wrote: »

I'll gladly admit that I always try to judge a person by the content of their character, except travellers, I learned not to do this the hard way.

Story time;

My nan has this border collie, Zac, lovely dog, she doesn't have sheep so hes a bit useless, cant go ratting like the Russels and cant chase anything like the hounds.

Zac hates travellers, I mean absolutely despises travellers, if he sees a caravan from the road he turns into a Hellhound, absolute bouncing off the walls barking mad.

We found this out as my nan stumbled upon a group of travellers in her shed, when trying to roust them, one pushed her over.

Zac went nuclear, I mean absolutely nuclear.

He's been getting the finest cuts since.

The same group only came back round once more, dog was let out, he went absolutely schizo. That group hasnt been back around since.

Zac had finally found his purpose.

I want to buy Zac a pint

Mutant z

So can anyone who has been refused entry to a club because they weren't appropriately dressed now start to demand thousands in compensation its the same thing as this snt it.

end of the road

Mutant z wrote: »

So can anyone who has been refused entry to a club because they weren't appropriately dressed now start to demand thousands in compensation its the same thing as this snt it.

being refused for the wrong type of clothes isn't one bit the same as being refused because traveler, no
being refused because traveler is discrimination and bigotry against a minority group, which is against the law. being refused entry for wearing the wrong type of clothes is a bit thick but it doesn't breach the law and it doesn't target a minority group.

the_syco

end of the road wrote: »

no being refused because traveler is discrimination

When it comes down to it, they'll shout discrimination if they're not let in; no matter how drunk they are, how they're dressed, or if they had been just evicted from anther pub for fighting.

sbsquarepants

end of the road wrote: »

refusing to let travelers into your pub is the same as refusing to let blacks or gays into your pub. all the time you need to follow the laws when operating a business, there is no negotiation or leeway on that fact.

If the whole industry was awash with tales of how every time you let a few gays drink in your bar, they smashed the place up, I wouldn't let gays drink in my bar. Simple FACT is the majority of gays will behave themselves, the majority of travellers wont. There are always exceptions to every rule, but as I've repeatedly said it's a numbers game. Travellers have proven time and time again that if you take a chance on them it will likely backfire. Gays haven't proven that, black people haven't.

The place I work in has been robbed literally dozens of times over the years by one of the 3 groups mentioned above - can you guess which group it was?

I have no problem with either gays, nor blacks, travellers I do not want anything to do with. They are bad news as a group, there may well be exceptions, but so what, they are in such a small minority that they aren't worth bothering with. In the off chance that you meet Paddy the decent traveller, you may bet full well that his mate Paddy the scummy traveller will rob you blind or hit you with a hatchet at the drop of a hat. Bad news, end of story.

You say over and over that you've had plenty of dealings with them. I can see only 2 possibilities here - you are lying about the number of times you've had to deal with them, or you are lying about how pleasant an experience it was. Nobody who has had to deal with these people, has too much good to say about them.

end of the road wrote: »

i believe cab do cary out work in relation to this. granted they need to do more, but that is a resourcing and funding issue.

It's not. It's a too much hassle, it's not like they're going to get jobs and pay taxes anyway so we'd rather not bother issue.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Is Zac planning on starting a family soon? That "culture" needs to be nourished and made sure it passes from generation to generation

Tipperary animal lover

I see EOTR has found this thread, give it a few days and the thread will be shut down, debate will go round I'm circles as per previous threads and mods will get pissed off with it and it'll be the the end of the road for yet another good thread, Long live good conversation either if you agree or disagree with it.

Kermit.de.frog

Travellers were burning tires off the N32 near Coolock the other day, not unusual, but was unusually large fire. Could see the smoke from much of Dublin i'd say.

If I or anyone else here did that we'd have gardai and EPA on us.

Agencies we have to abide by are too afraid to go near them.

That should not be allowed in society by any group.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Travellers were burning tires off the N32 near Coolock the other day, not unusual, but was unusually large fire. Could see the smoke from much of Dublin i'd say.

If I or anyone else here did that we'd have gardai and EPA on us.

Agencies we have to abide by are too afraid to go near them.

That should not be allowed in society by any group.

I always enjoy the whole "travellers drove very fast the other day, if that was you and me there'd be a SWAT team in helicopters" ones.

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

Kermit.de.frog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I always enjoy the whole "travellers drove very fast the other day, if that was you and me there'd be a SWAT team in helicopters" ones.

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

South Kerry is not Northside Dublin

Omackeral

end of the road wrote: »

it's because travelers are the last group where it is socially exceptible to discriminate against them.

But why? Why them? Why does it seem that Travellers have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group?

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

But why? Why them? Why does it seem that Travellers have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group?

Because it's the nature of bigotry and intolerance, to point to some justification and hint that it's deserved. Back in the day you could say the exact same thing about homosexuals to infer that they kinda deserved it - "...but why, why them, why do they have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group...".

Will I Am Not

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because it's the nature of bigotry and intolerance, to point to some justification and hint that it's deserved. Back in the day you could say the exact same thing about homosexuals to infer that they kinda deserved it - "...but why, why them, why do they have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group...".

Rubbish. It’s the nature of travellers.
The reputation didn’t come out of thin air.

Omackeral

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's the nature of bigotry and intolerance, to point to some justification and hint that it's deserved. Back in the day you could say the exact same thing about homosexuals to infer that they kinda deserved it - "...but why, why them, why do they have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group...".

That didn't answer the question whatsoever. In fact, all you did was repeat it. Speaking strictly about today, why are Travellers the ones who have this dodgy rep in society above everyone else? If everyone that's got negative stuff to say against them is just intolerant and bigoted, they'd have the same feelings towards many other minorities which doesn't seem to be the case on this thread, as many have said they've zero issues with gay/black/whatever people.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's the nature of bigotry and intolerance, to point to some justification and hint that it's deserved. Back in the day you could say the exact same thing about homosexuals to infer that they kinda deserved it - "...but why, why them, why do they have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group...".

No. You could do that only IF they had that reputation, which they clearly don't!

Now why don't you consider for a while WHY it is that travellers have such a bad reputation. Do you think it's a conspiracy? A society wide collusion to oppress a group of people purely for the craic?

Do you think maybe all the stealing, anti social behaviour, dumping, the ingrained mistreatment of women and animals (sometimes it's hard to know which they treat worse) the constant feuding and the ever present threat of serious violence could possibly have more to do with it?

The Fake Sheikh

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Rubbish. It’s the nature of travellers.
The reputation didn’t come out of thin air.

I was merely pointing to the obvious, that whenever a group is hated some reason or other is given. And those who agree with the intolerance and bigotry mutter that they kinda deserve it because their reputation was well earned.

So back in the day, those who hated homosexuals would refer to issues about the transient nature of their relationships, immorality, the spread of disease, myths about paedophilia...and you'd have been saying that their reputation didn't come out of thin air...

Omackeral

Deleted User wrote: »

So back in the day, those who hated homosexuals would refer to issues about the transient nature of their relationships, immorality, the spread of disease, myths about paedophilia...and you'd have been saying that their reputation didn't come out of thin air...

Today is what we're speaking about. Nothing else. Why is there, at best, suspicion around Travellers.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

That didn't answer the question whatsoever. In fact, all you did was repeat it. Speaking strictly about today, why are Travellers the ones who have this dodgy rep in society above everyone else? If everyone that's got negative stuff to say against them is just intolerant and bigoted, they'd have the same feelings towards many other minorities which doesn't seem to be the case on this thread, as many have said they've zero issues with gay/black/whatever people.

Ah come on.

Again, a couple of decades ago, people here hated homosexuals, but probably had never even met black people enough to develop any particular feelings. Did their ambivalence or tolerance of other groups make their bigotry and intolerance of homosexuals sorta more...educated and justifiable?

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

Try burning the plastic coating off the copper you've "found" in Tallaght. You'd be very lucky to not get caught, what with the thick black acrid smoke leading the authorities right to you. You know the kind of smoke you see regularly coming from halting sites.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Today is what we're speaking about. Nothing else. Why is there, at best, suspicion around Travellers.

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades. It has been 30 years since the EU said they were the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe. It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system. Violence, alcoholism...well isn't that how ethnic groups who faced discrimination all over the world have reacted, do you expect some miracle in Ireland whereby the ones we treat with prejudice should learn to love and respect us?

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah come on.

Again, a couple of decades ago, people here hated homosexuals, but probably had never even met black people enough to develop any particular feelings. Did their ambivalence or tolerance of other groups make their bigotry and intolerance of homosexuals sorta more...educated and justifiable?

I don't know what people hated decades ago or why they did. All I can tell you is I never hated gays, or foreigners, or northsiders or anyone else. I wouldn't necessarily say I hate travellers, I have just learned from repeated personal experience that as a group they are best avoided. Hate is probably too strong a word, but dislike definitely, distrust absolutely, avoid whenever possible also true.

Everyone I know, who has had any regular dealings with them has come to the same conclusion. Either I know a lot of bigoted people (which I doubt as I see no other evidence of bigotry from them) or travellers are just largely bad eggs.

It seems fairly obvious to me which one is the more likely scenario.

Kimbot

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thread needs a poll. Who thinks the pub was right?
I know the law doesn't but the law is an ass.
Almost universally hated ethnic group like the Roma gypsies.
Very few, if any, positive qualities to travellers.
Dirty, smelly, littering, inbreeding, family feuding, shooting babies last week, robbing, assaulting, tax dodging, bad workmanship, burglary, crying discrimination, wrecking pubs.

MOD Don't post in this thread again. And keep that kind of hate talk out of AH.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

I always enjoy the whole "travellers drove very fast the other day, if that was you and me there'd be a SWAT team in helicopters" ones.

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

South Kerry is a different fooking universe.
How else can one explain the healy raes and your old buddy john "the bull" ?

Deleted User wrote: »

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades. It has been 30 years since the EU said they were the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe. It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system. Violence, alcoholism...well isn't that how ethnic groups who faced discrimination all over the world have reacted, do you expect some miracle in Ireland whereby the ones we treat with prejudice should learn to love and respect us?

So does that mean in retribution they should target old people living on their own and at best wrangle money out of them for bogus repairs or at worst beat they shyte out of them, tie them up and leave them to die all for a few quid they possess.

Let's be frank here, you work in the legal profession so can you enlighten us as to how many traveller clients you have ?
You do not have to go into specifics, but roughly how many times have you helped them in a legal case, a criminal legal case ?

BTW you claim they shouldn't respect us, well then kindly explain why the fook they don't even respect each other that they can't even have a happy ocassion like a wedding or sorrowful one like a funeral without resorting to tribal warfare and bating lumps of shyte out of each other or even worse killing each other.

As long as people like you are around to excuse their behaviour nothing will change.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system.

Cleanliness is not an act of subjugation to the state, it's basic self respect and respect for your neighbours. I don't clean my house because my neighbours are nice to me, I clean it because I live there and I don't want myself or my kids to live in a shít hole.
I don't educate my kids because the pub serves me, I do it because it's what best for THEM. I want them to be able to get on in life without resorting to victimising old people and stealing anything that's not nailed down.
I follow the rules of the road for my safety and the safety of others around me. If I'm unfortunate enough to hit someone I will stop and help as best I can, not drive off and leave them fúcked because it's the right thing to do - no other reason.

We all know you've led a fairly sheltered life Conor, and that's fine, I'm not in any way mocking you by saying that - but Jesus Christ man open your eyes, see what's going on around you!

blackwhite

kylith wrote: »

It's amazing that pubs still have to be educated on anti-discrimination legislation. 15 years ago I had to tell a bouncer that if he refused me entry based on what I was wearing I'd be off to the solicitor in the morning and sue them. You can't discriminate on gender, dress, sexuality, or ethnicity. If they're not drunk you have to let them in.

When did "dress" get added to the nine grounds for discrimination??