Air corps new toy on the way

StolenKrone

Stovepipe wrote: »

The Air Corps Cessnas are the best kept Cessnas in the country, bar one or two. They have not been hoofed around Irish grass runways by varying qualities of pilots and recieved the best of attention. I used to work on them and we spent huge amounts of time and money compared to any Irish civvy Cessna. They might be old but they are immaculate, corrosion-free and relatively free of dents and dings. The downside is the engine, which is a gas-guzzler compared to the standard 160 hp model but this model of 172 is popular in the UK so they might find a home there. There was only ever one or two civvy Reims Rockets on the Irish register.

If any private flying school had the money the air corps have at their disposal you wouldn't see a poor quality cessna in the air. I have seen better 172's then the air corps *outside of the country of course. From my view the military are good at doing normal work on aircraft, and thats what they are paid for.

DanMurphy

Stovepipe wrote: »

The Air Corps Cessnas are the best kept Cessnas in the country, bar one or two. They have not been hoofed around Irish grass runways by varying qualities of pilots and recieved the best of attention. I used to work on them and we spent huge amounts of time and money compared to any Irish civvy Cessna. They might be old but they are immaculate, corrosion-free and relatively free of dents and dings. The downside is the engine, which is a gas-guzzler compared to the standard 160 hp model but this model of 172 is popular in the UK so they might find a home there. There was only ever one or two civvy Reims Rockets on the Irish register.

Thou shalt not praise our troops, their myriad skills, their international reputation, or the antique equipment mother Ireland gives them on Boards, lest ye fall foul of their many detractors!

Everyone knows by now that (insert name of country/Banana Republic) soldiers, sailors and airmen are waaaay better than ours!


Surprised at you, Stovepipe, of all people! :D:D

That said: I completed my five parachute jumps out of Cessna 110 back in the day. :P

Stovepipe

If you jumped out of 110, I'll eat my hat. It was 210, which you should have seen on the side as your head ricochetted off the airframe :-)

ted1

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Negative_G wrote: »

The 2015 WP states that they are due for replacement in 2019. Whether this means the tender process will commence in 2019 or that new aircraft will be delivered in 2019 is not clear.

"Due for replacement", in Civil Service speak is only the start of the, "kicking the can down the road" process. Nothing more nothing less!

If the Dept of Defence go by previous form, at least one of the CASA's will have to be permanently grounded and the other near maximum hours before the "bean counters" in Parkgate Street even start looking at the replacement process, let alone actually issuing a tender.

The navy will shortly have 4 new ships. No reason to think that the next purchase will not be replacing the Casas

Pat Dunne

ted1 wrote: »

The navy will shortly have 4 new ships. No reason to think that the next purchase will not be replacing the Casas

Ahh yes..... but don't expect this overnight, its the Civil Service afterall who hold the purse strings.

Topgear on Dave

Are the CASAs the aircraft that can provide the top cover to the rescue heli?

Given the events of the R116 crash surely modern long range maritime patrol aircraft would be a priority?

L1011

The Dail record on replacements suggested that the CASA replacement would be a larger frame. The bigger CASA is all I can think of as suitable unless they want to to insane with the Herc or A400M

BeardySi

L1011 wrote: »

The Dail record on replacements suggested that the CASA replacement would be a larger frame. The bigger CASA is all I can think of as suitable unless they want to to insane with the Herc or A400M

We can but dream!

Peregrine

I doubt it'll be anything other than CASA 295.

Negative_G

L1011 wrote: »

The Dail record on replacements suggested that the CASA replacement would be a larger frame. The bigger CASA is all I can think of as suitable unless they want to to insane with the Herc or A400M

The A400M is a pig and has an awful dispatch rate. The RAF and GAF have had well publicised issues with the number of aircraft available.

Like the F-35, there was too much invested and too many vested interests politically to let it die once issues became apparent. Ask any crew that fly them and they'll say the same.

C130 is far too expensive and far too thirsty to be realistically considered.

Similarly the KC-390 is massively expensive and complete overkill for what the DF needs.

Peregrine wrote: »

I doubt it'll be anything other than CASA 295.

You're provably right, which is a shame as its cargo ability is marginally better than a 235. Not sure how long more the 295 is in production for and buying an aircraft type nearing the end of its production life isn't ideal.

Unfortunately the market is very limited and with finite resources it becomes even more limited.

Given size of the EEZ, replacing the 235's with anything less than 3 airframe's would be madness.

roadmaster

Negative_G wrote: »

The A400M is a pig and has an awful dispatch rate. The RAF and GAF have had well publicised issues with the number of aircraft available.

Like the F-35, there was too much invested and too many vested interests politically to let it die once issues became apparent. Ask any crew that fly them and they'll say the same.

C130 is far too expensive and far too thirsty to be realistically considered.

Similarly the KC-390 is massively expensive and complete overkill for what the DF needs.



You're provably right, which is a shame as its cargo ability is marginally better than a 235. Not sure how long more the 295 is in production for and buying an aircraft type nearing the end of its production life isn't ideal.

Unfortunately the market is very limited and with finite resources it becomes even more limited.

Given size of the EEZ, replacing the 235's with anything less than 3 airframe's would be madness.

If all the above aircraft won't be got is there anything apart 295's that could be bought? Also when the current 235's are parked up could they be striped and used as utility aircraft or will they only be fit for the scrap heap?

L1011

The Alenia Spartan is about the only other Western craft in that size range that's still being made. Its a fairly major jump up to the Herc/A400/Kawasaki/Embraer transports.

Even that is a significant size increase on the 235.

roadmaster

L1011 wrote: »

The Alenia Spartan is about the only other Western craft in that size range that's still being made. Its a fairly major jump up to the Herc/A400/Kawasaki/Embraer transports.

Even that is a significant size increase on the 235.

You would never know with the AW139 connection the air corps have with leonardo anything is possible

Negative_G

roadmaster wrote: »

If all the above aircraft won't be got is there anything apart 295's that could be bought? Also when the current 235's are parked up could they be striped and used as utility aircraft or will they only be fit for the scrap heap?

The 2015 white paper on Defence quotes the following:

The CASA 235s will be replaced with consideration
of their replacement with larger more capable aircraft. This would enhance maritime
surveillance and provide a greater degree of utility for transport and cargo carrying tasks.

'Enhance' to me would suggest greater range, endurance and a more sophisticated ISR sensor suite with possibly a sub surface detection capability.

'Greater degree of utility' could mean anything. It could mean that the fuselage is palletised and able to take NATO standard pallets, it could mean it takes small vehicles, its hard to know.

The unknown variable is 'larger'. It goes without saying that the larger you go the price increases significantly. And as already has been discussed, there is a very small segment in the market between small and large military transports. And even less that have a proven history in maritime operations.

The AC do not have a history of maintaining single aircraft after fleet replacement. I would say they will be auctioned off like other state assets.

L1011 wrote: »

The Alenia Spartan is about the only other Western craft in that size range that's still being made. Its a fairly major jump up to the Herc/A400/Kawasaki/Embraer transports.

Even that is a significant size increase on the 235.

The only other aircraft that I can think of are the ATR and the Dash-8 both of which have maritime variants and are still in production.

Maringally bigger than a 235. The market is very limited.

€100m is unlikely to stretch to anymore than 2 aircraft when all things are taken into consideration. A realistic budget is probably around €150m.

The original costing for the Cessna replacement was €15m and the final contract came to €32m so it seems that the budget can shift. The new MRV for the Navy is going to cost about €150m also, more than twice the cost of any other vessel.

The elephant in the room is PESCO. If the Government are obliged to increase spending toward 1.5-2% of GDP, it's likely the Air Corps and Navy will see considerable investment as we will become the 'first line of defence' of Western Europe while also monitoring the largest EEZ in Europe.

The EU did contribute a significant amount to the purchase of the CASAs in 1994 and a large fund will be made available over the coming years for EU nations. It's a positive move for the DF regardless of what you think of PESCO politically.

andrewfaulk

Surely the ATR72 MPA would be ideal for the marine patrol/fishery protection part of the requirement.. the question is would the Air corps accept a side door freighter or would they want a rear ramp fitted aircraft..

Stovepipe

Most militaries prefer a ramp-equipped aircraft, as they don't need much in the way of ground handling equipment and such aircraft are scarce in the smaller sizes. The Casa essentially failed as a commuter aircraft, except in Indonesia, where it is made, whereas the ATR dominates the commuter market and has a firm foothold in light freight, operating from airports with plenty of ground equipment. Casas dominate the military market for SAR/MATS/Utility, which suggests to me that ATR want to break into the lucrative military market.

roadmaster

Stovepipe wrote: »

Most militaries prefer a ramp-equipped aircraft, as they don't need much in the way of ground handling equipment and such aircraft are scarce in the smaller sizes. The Casa essentially failed as a commuter aircraft, except in Indonesia, where it is made, whereas the ATR dominates the commuter market and has a firm foothold in light freight, operating from airports with plenty of ground equipment. Casas dominate the military market for SAR/MATS/Utility, which suggests to me that ATR want to break into the lucrative military market.

Since Airbus owns casa and has a big say in the ATRS would they be marketing them differently with ATR for Civilian and Casa for Military ?

Stovepipe

That was essentially the case for years; air arms didn't really want the ATR as it's cargo door is at the front, so it didnt suit safe unloading with an engine running on that side (despite the ability to shut down the propellor and keep the engine running as an APU....the Casa also has that ability but it's rarely used)) and it didnt suit parachuting like a ramp does. The Casa was not a success in Europe as a commuter aircraft, with only Binter in Spain operating them, as far as I recall. I think it's fuel burn was higher than an ATRs and a ramp was redundant for commuter operations, although in less well developed countries, using a ramp for commuter flights is considered normal and ideal for manual freight unloading. I'm sure it suited Airbus or EADS to keep the the two types operating in separate spheres to keep two production lines going and now it appears to be a need to find uses for ATRs. At least the Casa 235 mutated into the 295, which offers more options for military users.

EchoIndia

The ATR has done well over the years but seems to be vulnerable to falls in fuel prices that reduce its economic advantage over jets. That said, it still has a reasonable order book including 30 for FedEx and, I think, 20 for Iran Air. However the fact that the US market has largely dropped props in favour on smaller jets means that it is never going to garner much in the way of future sales there.

jimbis

Would the likes of a herc or a400m be any use for troop transfers? Or are troop transfers even done that often to be even considered?

Stovepipe

The DoFinance knocked a request for a C130 on the head years ago, so legend says, because they believed that it would spend most of it's life in training or maintenance and do very little as an active airlifter. These days, the DF uses commercial lifters for transfers of men and machines.

roundymac

Most of our (if not all) "troop transfer's" are paid for by the UN who contract the charter airlines to do these.

durandal01

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/irish-air-corps-orders-three-pc-12ngs-444929/