Landlord won't refund my deposit

cinnamony

Hi Guys,

So I recently got out of a licensee arrangement with a guy, we both lived in his house. I know licensees are not like tenants so I just thought I'd ask this before taking any legal action.

I spoke to him as soon as I started looking for a place as I thought it would take me a while, however I ended up renting with friends so i found somewhere within a week, I spoke with him immediately about moving out 2 weeks later and he said he was okay with that.

Fast forward to me moving out and before I left things were fine, he said he would put the money in my bank account within 3 days I said "No problem" and left. 3 days later the money was not in my account, I e-mailed to ask what has happening and he e-mailed back saying he would not be giving me back my deposit because by law I was required to give a month's notice so he is keeping it to cover the costs.

I cannot find any evidence of this anywhere and we did not have any agreement, I know he is looking to sell his house so I'm thinking that's why he suddenly came out with this.

I am very frustrated but if it is my fault I do not want to file a claim with the small claims court.

Anyone has any advice for me? Is he correct?

Thank you!

Samuel T. Cogley

The agreement would be the one between you both either written, in which case you both have to abide by it, or verbal, in which case the agreement you made when leaving is the one that stands. You'll need to go through the Small Claims Procedure.

TheChizler

There's no law regarding licensee notice, only mentions reasonable notice. If he said he was fine with you giving 2 weeks notice that seems reasonable to me. Did you have a written agreement or do you have a record of anything he said?

If there's no joy with him your only recourse is the small claims court really. Hopefully you can come to an agreement.

cinnamony

Thank you both so much for the prompt reply, I genuinely appreciate it during these trying times!

TheChizler wrote: »

There's no law regarding licensee notice, only mentions reasonable notice. If he said he was fine with you giving 2 weeks notice that seems reasonable to me. Did you have a written agreement or do you have a record of anything he said?

If there's no joy with him your only recourse is the small claims court really. Hopefully you can come to an agreement.

I asked many times for agreement in writing but he always refused! I only have a text I sent him saying that since I left so soon and its almost christmas instead of paying the deposit within 3 days as agreed, he could pay 50% in 3 days and 50% afterwards and I thanked him for his hospitality

Samuel T. Cogley

cinnamony wrote: »

Thank you both so much for the prompt reply, I genuinely appreciate it during these trying times!



I asked many times for agreement in writing but he always refused! I only have a text I sent him saying that since I left so soon and its almost christmas instead of paying the deposit within 3 days as agreed, he could pay 50% in 3 days and 50% afterwards and I thanked him for his hospitality

Perfect, bang to rights and all that. Small claims procedure is €25 last time I checked.

TheChizler

Hold on to that text!

cinnamony

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Perfect, bang to rights and all that. Small claims procedure is €25 last time I checked.

And you think I will win? I actually got offered time off by HR when they saw how nervous I looked going to work over this..even though i was trying to remain calm I was just shaking from all sides:D

Samuel T. Cogley

cinnamony wrote: »

And you think I will win? I actually got offered time off by HR when they saw how nervous I looked going to work over this..even though i was trying to remain calm I was just shaking from all sides:D

You'll win almost for sure - by default most likely (him not responding). Enforcing that judgement will be near impossible though I'm afraid. Your only hope really is that he craps himself over the paperwork he'll get from the court and it gets to him before he moves.

cinnamony

TheChizler wrote: »

Hold on to that text!

Absolutely I have everything said including the e-mail he sent me referring to tenancy laws rather than licensee ones.. But I heard texts are not proof in court? This is why I'm a bit held back, because he didn't want to make a written agreement I have no record of the fact I spoke to him and he okayed it

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You'll win almost for sure - by default most likely (him not responding). Enforcing that judgement will be near impossible though I'm afraid. Your only hope really is that he craps himself over the paperwork he'll get from the court and it gets to him before he moves.

You are absolutely correct, impossible to predict! I was actually thinking of sending him an e-mail saying tenancy laws don't apply to me as I'm a licensee and I will take him to the claims court but the way he is treating me is ridiculous (e.g. he said in the email I cursed when he told me i had to give him notice)

Samuel T. Cogley

Just a rant but I rent an apartment and a room and I really don't know how someone can treat someone else like this. I never ask for notice with the room, it's a casual thing. I'd be mortified if I couldn't give the tenant back their deposit. It's not my money I've no business spending it.

/rant

Sleeper12

I'd imagine he was happy with the original notice but has since realised that he is unlikely to be able to get to a replacement tenant till after the new year

cinnamony

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Just a rant but I rent an apartment and a room and I really don't know how someone can treat someone else like this. I never ask for notice with the room, it's a casual thing. I'd be mortified if I couldn't give the tenant back their deposit. It's not my money I've no business spending it.

/rant

I really feel sorry for landlords like you who get a bad rep due to these guys.
Unfortunately I have found that many landlords myself and my friends have rented with believe the deposit is theirs under all circumstances which is obviously not the case...but it creates a stereotype

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'd imagine he was happy with the original notice but has since realised that he is unlikely to be able to get to a replacement tenant till after the new year

This exactly, but as a licensee this is not my business especially because i thought it was okay?

spaceHopper

Take your time let him cool off. Email him between Christmas and the new year. Outline things as you did in the first post. Tell him you are giving him one last chance to reconsider before you start small claims proceedings. By then hopefully he will have found a new tennant and have their deposit to handover.

cinnamony

spaceHopper wrote: »

Take your time let him cool off. Email him between Christmas and the new year. Outline things as you did in the first post. Tell him you are giving him one last chance to reconsider before you start small claims proceedings. By then hopefully he will have found a new tennant and have their deposit to handover.

He actually texted my this morning saying he will give me 25% of the deposit as a token of his kindness even though I don't deserve it as he has the right to it. I didn't text back and I'm just leaving it until I get more advice on the small claims court from either Threshold or Citizens information

_Dara_

What a chancer. He's basically thieving. No other word for it. Two weeks is most certainly reasonable notice in a licensee situation and, more importantly, he agreed to it.

I think I would included in the email a link to information about the rules around licensee situations. That will show that there is absolutely no requirement for one month's notice in that scenario.

Thestones

cinnamony wrote: »

He actually texted my this morning saying he will give me 25% of the deposit as a token of his kindness even though I don't deserve it as he has the right to it. I didn't text back and I'm just leaving it until I get more advice on the small claims court from either Threshold or Citizens information

You need to be firm with him, he must think your a pushover. Be clear that you are fully aware of your rights and that he is incorrect quoting tenancy laws when you were a licensee and suggest he check his facts, despite all this he agreed to the notice and has no basis to withholding your money.

cinnamony

_Dara_ wrote: »

What a chancer. He's basically thieving. No other word for it. Two weeks is most certainly reasonable notice in a licensee situation and, more importantly, he agreed to it.

I think I would included in the email a link to information about the rules around licensee situations. That will show that there is absolutely no requirement for one month's notice in that scenario.

Thestones wrote: »

You need to be firm with him, he must think your a pushover. Be clear that you are fully aware of your rights and that he is incorrect quoting tenancy laws when you were a licensee and suggest he check his facts, despite all this he agreed to the notice and has no basis to withholding your money.

I have been trying to be very reasonable with him even offered to let him pay in installments instead but he keeps going back to tenancy laws and claims he received "legal advice" on this and that it is within his rights. I seriously do think he is trying to bully, he has even included in the e-mail that he tried to reason with me and that I insulted him which is a lie and that he doesn't want to talk to me anymore. He hasn't even transferred the 25% deposit he promised even though he said he would yesterday (in an e-mail!)

At this point my only worry is that I will be wasting my money going to the small claims court when I already don't have a lot, but I feel this is an absolute injustice not just for my money but it has taken a big psychological toll as well as I suffer from severe anxiety... It seems unfair to me that people like me who are licensees have basically no recourses except court...

my3cents

Think of the SCC more of an arbitration service (which it is) for €25 you get your case put to your landlord and he then has the option of responding. In many cases the defendants fold at this stage but even if he fights you all the way you seem to have a perfectly good case and should win basically both sides ultimately get to put their side of it to a judge who decides on the outcome. As I have said in many cases the defendant doesn't bother to attend court.

It only costs you €25 plus your time and effort so its a good deal.

JillyQ

Landlords like this really annoy me. I had licences in my home for last number of years and would never dream of withholding a deposit. As a previous poster said it is not my money. Except were they were outstanding bills which were agreed by both of of us.

Take this fool to the small claims court. Would love to see him quote tenancy law to judge in this case. He will loose.

cinnamony

So I went into Threshold and they took my details etc... and will be calling me after Christmas, I just want to see if they could possibly help me reach an agreement with him without going to court as I'm worried the papers wont get to him before he sells the apartment and gets away with this crap.

I did have a small talk with them whilst making my appointment and was told that even if we had verbally agreed to a one months notice the fact that he said he would refund me my full deposit once I left would have essentially "overwritten" this agreement.

I have not replied to his e-mail and he has not given me the 25% he said he would, showing his dishonesty once again. The only contact I will be having with him if Threshold sees no other way of getting my money back is the small claims court for sure.

Regardless, I am not backing down from this.

Browney7

cinnamony wrote: »

So I went into Threshold and they took my details etc... and will be calling me after Christmas, I just want to see if they could possibly help me reach an agreement with him without going to court as I'm worried the papers wont get to him before he sells the apartment and gets away with this crap.

I did have a small talk with them whilst making my appointment and was told that even if we had verbally agreed to a one months notice the fact that he said he would refund me my full deposit once I left would have essentially "overwritten" this agreement.

I have not replied to his e-mail and he has not given me the 25% he said he would, showing his dishonesty once again. The only contact I will be having with him if Threshold sees no other way of getting my money back is the small claims court for sure.

Regardless, I am not backing down from this.

In fairness op, you know where he lives. Call round for a chat see if you can negotiate it back. Lesson learned though, never leave a house share before deposits are returned

cinnamony

Browney7 wrote: »

In fairness op, you know where he lives. Call round for a chat see if you can negotiate it back. Lesson learned though, never leave a house share before deposits are returned

He said he doesn't want anymore contact with me and as a licensee I think it would have been trespassing had I stayed to demand my deposit...

Browney7

cinnamony wrote: »

He said he doesn't want anymore contact with me and as a licensee I think it would have been trespassing had I stayed to demand my deposit...

Its pretty simple though OP, a bit of dialogue before you went would have avoided this (not that this is your fault btw, yer man sounds like a right one but you need to be tough when it comes to cash money and being perceived as a push over by guys like this).

"Inspect the room there. Are you happy? Sound. Cash Now." "Ah I'll send it to you at some stage".

"Cash now mate or we could have a problem on our hands. Ah you've the cash? Great, Have a nice life"

One_Of_Shanks

That text is the important bit. You have proof now and you'll win your case. It shouldn't be so stressful though and he sounds like a greedy git.
If only people were fair and reasonable things would work a lot better.

If he hadn't sent that text then it's complicated but he did. And you'll be fine. I'd back-up that phone and copy the text ASAP if it was me.

cinnamony

Browney7 wrote: »

Its pretty simple though OP, a bit of dialogue before you went would have avoided this (not that this is your fault btw, yer man sounds like a right one but you need to be tough when it comes to cash money and being perceived as a push over by guys like this).

"Inspect the room there. Are you happy? Sound. Cash Now." "Ah I'll send it to you at some stage".

"Cash now mate or we could have a problem on our hands. Ah you've the cash? Great, Have a nice life"

I did but he refused to pay by cash, so I asked to make a written agreement that the deposit would be in my account within 3 days and he refused this as well. I called Threshold to ask for advice and they said he is not obliged to pay me back the deposit before I leave.

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

That text is the important bit. You have proof now and you'll win your case. It shouldn't be so stressful though and he sounds like a greedy git.
If only people were fair and reasonable things would work a lot better.

If he hadn't sent that text then it's complicated but he did. And you'll be fine. I'd back-up that phone and copy the text ASAP if it was me.

He didn't send the text - I did, I said "I know we agreed that you would pay me back the deposit within 3 days, but since christmas is a difficult time you can also pay 50% within 3 days and the remainder after."

I do have a text from him stating I could stay until my rent is up but just to let him know so he can check the room before I left..

And he sent me an e-mail a few days ago stating he got advice and doesn't have to give me back my deposit after all since I broke the tenancy agreement (which there wasn't any and I wasn't even a tenant) but that he would give me 25% as a good gesture (which he also didn't do).

Browney7

cinnamony wrote: »

I did but he refused to pay by cash, so I asked to make a written agreement that the deposit would be in my account within 3 days and he refused this as well. I called Threshold to ask for advice and they said he is not obliged to pay me back the deposit before I leave.



He didn't send the text - I did, I said "I know we agreed that you would pay me back the deposit within 3 days, but since christmas is a difficult time you can also pay 50% within 3 days and the remainder after."

I do have a text from him stating I could stay until my rent is up but just to let him know so he can check the room before I left..

And he sent me an e-mail a few days ago stating he got advice and doesn't have to give me back my deposit after all since I broke the tenancy agreement (which there wasn't any and I wasn't even a tenant) but that he would give me 25% as a good gesture (which he also didn't do).

Well he is a chancer and he's hoping you give up and seems to have an entitled attitude of "what ya gonna do" and for people with this attitude it's hard to get them to see sense. If you tangle him up in small claims do you have to go through the hassle of trying to enforce a small debt? You may need to get "creative" to get a solution that's agreeable to you. Best of luck though! Has he readvertised the place at all? Turn up at a viewing if he does.

cinnamony

Browney7 wrote: »

Well he is a chancer and he's hoping you give up and seems to have an entitled attitude of "what ya gonna do" and for people with this attitude it's hard to get them to see sense. If you tangle him up in small claims do you have to go through the hassle of trying to enforce a small debt? You may need to get "creative" to get a solution that's agreeable to you. Best of luck though! Has he readvertised the place at all? Turn up at a viewing if he does.

Unfortunately my only choice is to go through the Small Claims procedure to get my deposit back, it would just be nice if like tenants who go through the PRTB i could sue him for the hassle he has caused me as well. I suffer from a serious mental illness and this whole situation has really affected me.

The_Conductor

Cinnamony- you were not a tenant- and he was not a landlord.
Threshold- honestly- have no reason to be involved- it is not a tenancy dispute.

At this point- I would send one final e-mail to the guy- advise him that you too, have taken advice (don't say 'legal advice'- just say 'advice') and you are offering him a one-off opportunity to return your deposit in full to you by (give him 24 hours- he can do it with online banking at any stage- and he does have your bank details already). If he does not return *your* money- you will be forced by his inaction to take immediate action, and he can expect to receive legal papers in the post.

At this point- if you have the 25 quid- pay it, lodge the Small Claims Court case- and let it roll.

Once you lodge the case (if you have to)- at this point- move on, shelf it- and get on with your life. You may find he rolls over- and gives you *your* money back- but if he doesn't- just follow the directions the SCC give you- and present your case if/when it comes to it.........

One way or the other- don't get upset or frustrated by all of this- he is the arsehole- and if you let him get to you- he has won. Yes, its annoying- and yes, it may take time- but sleep soundly in the knowledge that you gave him every possible opportunity to right the wrong he created.

What a dick.

cinnamony

The_Conductor wrote: »

Cinnamony- you were not a tenant- and he was not a landlord.
Threshold- honestly- have no reason to be involved- it is not a tenancy dispute.

At this point- I would send one final e-mail to the guy- advise him that you too, have taken advice (don't say 'legal advice'- just say 'advice') and you are offering him a one-off opportunity to return your deposit in full to you by (give him 24 hours- he can do it with online banking at any stage- and he does have your bank details already). If he does not return *your* money- you will be forced by his inaction to take immediate action, and he can expect to receive legal papers in the post.

At this point- if you have the 25 quid- pay it, lodge the Small Claims Court case- and let it roll.

Once you lodge the case (if you have to)- at this point- move on, shelf it- and get on with your life. You may find he rolls over- and gives you *your* money back- but if he doesn't- just follow the directions the SCC give you- and present your case if/when it comes to it.........

One way or the other- don't get upset or frustrated by all of this- he is the arsehole- and if you let him get to you- he has won. Yes, its annoying- and yes, it may take time- but sleep soundly in the knowledge that you gave him every possible opportunity to right the wrong he created.

What a dick.

You are right, letting it get to me emotionally will just allow him to get a hold over me. I have now sent him a final e-mail that if the money is not in my account within 24 hours I will be taking him to court, I have also explained that the tenancy rules do not apply to me as I was a licensee and I gave him the definition of a licensee as well so he will stop calling me a tenant.

For now I'm just going to forget this and enjoy Christmas with my family without thinking about this and if the money is not in my account I will begin the Small Claims procedure.

the_syco

cinnamony wrote: »

So I went into Threshold and they took my details etc... and will be calling me after Christmas

From threads here, Threshold don't look that great for legit info. The fact that they're even thinking of helping you shows how little they know, as they think you're a tenant, and probably advise you to goto the PTRB, as Threshold are fairly useless when it comes to law it seems.

Pay the €25, and if he pays, grand, if he doesn't; the ball will already be rolling.

cinnamony

the_syco wrote: »

From threads here, Threshold don't look that great for legit info. The fact that they're even thinking of helping you shows how little they know, as they think you're a tenant, and probably advise you to goto the PTRB, as Threshold are fairly useless when it comes to law it seems.

Pay the €25, and if he pays, grand, if he doesn't; the ball will already be rolling.

I was just distressed and didn't know where else to turn before I posted in this forum so I contacted them and was told I didn't have a case as I didn't have written proof (i.e. notice etc...)

The only reason I considered going to them again was because a friend of mine who was in trouble due to a licensee situation recommended a particular Threshold advisor to me so I thought I'd give it another shot. But if the only thing I have to lose by filling a claim with the Small Claims court is to have it ruled in his favour and not see a single cent back then its worth it for me to at least try. My main worry before posting here was that if I lost I would be fined or have to pay more to the landlord thats all...