Landlord won't refund my deposit

TheChizler

I misread I thought he sent the text to you. I'd still be lodging a SCC application if there's no joy with him.

server down

TheChizler wrote: »

I misread I thought he sent the text to you. I'd still be lodging a SCC application if there's no joy with him.

Since the friend didn’t rebut the text, and since the law is on the op’s side he should take the case.

I believe the op’s friend thinks he is a landlord with a tenant. Clearly he isn’t. Being a licensee isn’t great but one advantage is you don’t have to give the months notice.

cinnamony

TheChizler wrote: »

I misread I thought he sent the text to you. I'd still be lodging a SCC application if there's no joy with him.

Yup I sent him an e-mail stating that if he doesnt give me back the deposit within 24 hours I will be taking him to court.

server down wrote: »

Since the friend didn’t rebut the text, and since the law is on the op’s side he should take the case.

I believe the op’s friend thinks he is a landlord with a tenant. Clearly he isn’t. Being a licensee isn’t great but one advantage is you don’t have to give the months notice.

This is what I'm hoping will support my case, I also have a text from before I left from him stating I can leave at anytime up to the day I paid rent until as well as the e-mail he sent me stating he would pay me 25% of the deposit by bank and keep the rest which I can prove he didn't do through bank statements. I'm hoping all of this will help corroborate my case as he refused to give me a writen notice and an agreement...

_Dara_

TheChizler wrote: »

I misread I thought he sent the text to you. I'd still be lodging a SCC application if there's no joy with him.

Plus, the email saying that he broke the “tenancy” agreement will also strengthen the OP’s case as it will be very obvious to the judge that he wasn’t a tenant and therefore a month’s notice was not required.

cinnamony

_Dara_ wrote: »

Plus, the email saying that he broke the “tenancy” agreement will also strengthen the OP’s case as it will be very obvious to the judge that he wasn’t a tenant and therefore a month’s notice was not required.

I think he actually admits himself in the e-mail that there was no tenancy. He says:

"Thankfully there was no lease, if you wanted a lease it is your responsibility to ask for one"

TheChizler

You can have a tenancy with no lease, but it's such an easy thing to prove that you were a licensee as you lived in the same property as the person you were renting from.

cinnamony

TheChizler wrote: »

You can have a tenancy with no lease, but it's such an easy thing to prove that you were a licensee as you lived in the same property as the person you were renting from.

Yeah and it was a Mon-Fri arrangement too so I'm kind of confused where he pulled that one from haha

cinnamony

So I got an e-mail from the guy I was living with asking for my details so he can send me the 25%. I told him to keep it as I had begun the proceedings to take him to court for the full deposit.

This guy really can't get any worse, trying to force me to take the 25% AFTER I had sent him an e-mail stating I would be filling against him in the Small Claims Court if he did not give me the full deposit.

How are small claims court rulings enforced?

Muahahaha

I know many on here are saying to go the Small Claims Court but iirc the District Court is also an option for the OP here. iirc 25 euro will also get a case launched in the District.

The Small Claims Court is quicker but the problem will be enforcing the judgement.There are a couple of reasons I think the District Court may be better than the SCC in this case
1) Court reporters. If the OP is in a rural area then the District will be likely to have a journalist from the local newspaper. The former landlord is trying to pull a fast one here and he is much less likely to do that if there is any threat of having his name published in the local newspaper. If that happens and people Google his name into the future then an article pops up showing how he lost a case where he tried to swindle a deposit. It is not a good mark to have against your name for the rest of your life IMO.
2) Enforcing the debt. iirc even if you have a judgement from the SCC your option here is to take the decree and give it to the County Sherrif to see can he seize goods to the value of the debt owed. Problem is that the County Sherrif has to be paid and you will not receive the full value of the debt.

Given that this landlord owns property which he intends to sell I think the best route to enforcement is to win your case and get a judgement in the District Court. Then bring that judgement to the Property Registration Authority and apply to stick what is called a judgement mortgage onto his house. Then when he goes to sell the property he will not be able to do so unless the judgement mortgage is cleared from his property. At this point you have got him by the short and curlies because now your judgement mortgage is preventing him selling the house. He will be begging you to give you your money back.

TheChizler

The district court may technically be possible, but the SCC is designed to be usable by the 'lay-person'. The district court not so much. How would you even go about it? Also getting a lein on a house over a couple hundred Euro? Even if granted the OP needs to wait for the house to be sold for that.

Been to the SCC before over something and the Sheriff took his fee from the defendant directly and separately to the order, we got the entire sum due.

cinnamony

Well I already put in my claim with the SCC so I'm guessing the best thing to do is to let that roll and not put in two applications? I feel that would be unecessary?

Also I was wondering does anyone know what happens if I lose? Will I be fined? I'm worried that my evidence won't be enough and the judge will take the "landlord's" word over my own. I don't earn that much and financially this situation has already taken a toll on me so I wanted to know if I should be prepared?

April 73

Now that you’ve filed you need to try to put the worrying to one side. Let this play out. You’ve got a good case.

Muahahaha

TheChizler wrote: »

The district court may technically be possible, but the SCC is designed to be usable by the 'lay-person'. The district court not so much. How would you even go about it? Also getting a lein on a house over a couple hundred Euro? Even if granted the OP needs to wait for the house to be sold for that.

Been to the SCC before over something and the Sheriff took his fee from the defendant directly and separately to the order, we got the entire sum due.

Yeah you are right the SCC definitely is more user friendly. However that said many people are afraid of the District Court when representing themselves but actually the staff who work at the desks in the Courts Service can be very helpful to lay litigants and informative on what documents you need and on procedures etc.

Anyway cinnamony has filed in the SCC now so it is a moot point. What they need to do is prepare for the case and have all their ducks lined up on a wall. S/he needs to show the judge on the day a chain of evidence that proves 1) they lived there, 2) Deposit of X amount was paid over and 3) LL is refusing to refund the deposit. Provided they can prove this then they have a very strong case here and the LL is on shaky ground as for a defence as the law is clear here. Text messages and emails are the way to go about proving what you are saying is true, use them to show the judge you are telling the truth about your claim and everything will be fine. As for being fined for losing the case, no there is no fine. However your landlord does get an opportunity to submit a counter claim. This might be if he was saying you wrecked the room and he is keeping your deposit because of that. Of course he would then need to prove 1) the room was wrecked and 2) that you definitely did it. So along as he has no counter claim against you that is valid and he is able to prove then you have nothing to worry about on that score.

Main thing now I would say is forget about it until the date comes up. Dont let it stress you. With any luck the LL will just be honest and pay up what he owes you without you having to attend the SCC at all.

cinnamony

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah you are right the SCC definitely is more user friendly. However that said many people are afraid of the District Court when representing themselves but actually the staff who work at the desks in the Courts Service can be very helpful to lay litigants and informative on what documents you need and on procedures etc.

Anyway cinnamony has filed in the SCC now so it is a moot point. What they need to do is prepare for the case and have all their ducks lined up on a wall. S/he needs to show the judge on the day a chain of evidence that proves 1) they lived there, 2) Deposit of X amount was paid over and 3) LL is refusing to refund the deposit. Provided they can prove this then they have a very strong case here and the LL is on shaky ground as for a defence as the law is clear here. Text messages and emails are the way to go about proving what you are saying is true, use them to show the judge you are telling the truth about your claim and everything will be fine. As for being fined for losing the case, no there is no fine. However your landlord does get an opportunity to submit a counter claim. This might be if he was saying you wrecked the room and he is keeping your deposit because of that. Of course he would then need to prove 1) the room was wrecked and 2) that you definitely did it. So along as he has no counter claim against you that is valid and he is able to prove then you have nothing to worry about on that score.

Main thing now I would say is forget about it until the date comes up. Dont let it stress you. With any luck the LL will just be honest and pay up what he owes you without you having to attend the SCC at all.

Thanks a million for the advice, I only payed by bank transfer and even when I was communicating with him it was only through text or email so i have proof i rented the room as well as the address.

I also backed up all my text messages and the emails are saved on my gmail account. The only thing is I found out when I was backing everything up that the video i took of the room before i left got deleted, when i use those apps that search through all the files i can see its there but I can't recover.

If anyone knows any app thats reliable and allows me to recover the file I'd be really grateful if you could please let me know and i will do that today so that I have the video as well.

Samuel T. Cogley

Claire Tinkling Creek wrote: »

How are small claims court rulings enforced?

Sheriff - but not overly successfully against non-businesses, I wound venture.

Samuel T. Cogley

Just to note the SCC is not a court it's a procedure in the District Court, it can progress to a full hearing in front of a judge if needed. Going to the DC directly is risky if the defendant hires a solicitor you'll have to do the same or risk getting hit for costs. No solicitors or costs using the SCP.

my3cents

Just something after rereading this thread that I thought of.

OP do you have a receipt for the deposit? If not you are going to have to piece together some emails that show the landlord acknowledges that you have paid a specific amount. Obviously if you paid by cheque or card you'll have it on a statement.

cinnamony

my3cents wrote: »

Just something after rereading this thread that I thought of.

OP do you have a receipt for the deposit? If not you are going to have to piece together some emails that show the landlord acknowledges that you have paid a specific amount. Obviously if you paid by cheque or card you'll have it on a statement.

I don't have a receipt but I paid it by bank transfer with the reference stated as "Deposit". For the rent it was the same thing except the reference I used was "Rent". This way on the bank statement it says "Deposit", amount and to whom it was paid to. I have never ever paid anything in cash.

Muahahaha

cinnamony wrote: »

I don't have a receipt but I paid it by bank transfer with the reference stated as "Deposit". For the rent it was the same thing except the reference I used was "Rent". This way on the bank statement it says "Deposit", amount and to whom it was paid to. I have never ever paid anything in cash.

Fair play to you for referencing it as "Deposit".

It was a very smart move that will now make sure to the judge that you paid a deposit.

I doubt any tenant or licensee gets away without paying a deposit. But it is a common excuse used by some landlords when they receive the deposit in cash, spend it and then refuse to pay it back when the person moves out. It happens a lot, if I remember correctly landlords keeping deposits is the single biggest type of complaint to the RTB.

The_Conductor

Muahahaha wrote: »

I remember correctly landlords keeping deposits is the single biggest type of complaint to the RTB.

It *was* the single biggest complaint to the RTB up to 2 years ago.
Tenants overholding and/or not paying rent- has shot ahead of any other complaint to the RTB in the intervening period of time- and now makes up almost 60% of all cases taken to adjudication at the RTB- and is just under 8 times a multiple of next most frequent complaint adjudicated on.

Its significantly less frequent a complaint over the last 18 months- and while its not entirely eradicated- its viewed as being under control.

Dakota Dan

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Perfect, bang to rights and all that. Small claims procedure is €25 last time I checked.

But even if you win the case it will be still a struggle to get the payment.

cinnamony

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair play to you for referencing it as "Deposit".

It was a very smart move that will now make sure to the judge that you paid a deposit.

I doubt any tenant or licensee gets away without paying a deposit. But it is a common excuse used by some landlords when they receive the deposit in cash, spend it and then refuse to pay it back when the person moves out. It happens a lot, if I remember correctly landlords keeping deposits is the single biggest type of complaint to the RTB.

Thank you! I thought it was better not to leave it blank as then it would look as though it could be for anything. I also have texts/emails from him confirming receipt, amount, rent etc...

Actually can a landlord even withhold a deposit from a licensee to cover the costs of finding someone else even in cases where the licensee simply walks out without notice? I read that deposits can only be withheld if the licensee owns rent or bills or if they caused damage beyond wear and tear?

The_Conductor wrote: »

It *was* the single biggest complaint to the RTB up to 2 years ago.
Tenants overholding and/or not paying rent- has shot ahead of any other complaint to the RTB in the intervening period of time- and now makes up almost 60% of all cases taken to adjudication at the RTB- and is just under 8 times a multiple of next most frequent complaint adjudicated on.

Its significantly less frequent a complaint over the last 18 months- and while its not entirely eradicated- its viewed as being under control.

I remember reading before of tenants withholding the rent for their last month of lease due to fears they would not be given back their deposits so I wonder if its correlated. Still I don't think I personally would be able to do this, two wrongs dont make a right. Or I'm just too naive..

Dakota Dan wrote: »

But even if you win the case it will be still a struggle to get the payment.

I know it really grinds my gears as that money would be a great help but there's nothing else I can do unfortunately...


Also just a quick update on the video: It turns out I won't be able to get it back as my phone is not rooted. I do have pictures of the furniture I took, its not many but hopefully enough if he tries to pull that one... Although I did leave a while ago already so he had enough time to look at the room considering he lives there. Fingers crossed

cinnamony

Hi all sorry for bumping the thread back up but I was just seeking some further advice.

My former landlord emailed me again today and in the e-mail he admits he had given me notice to move out as he was selling the residence. Which is when we agreed that I would be moving out. He states in the e-mail that since he gave me 2 months notice I was still required to give him 1 months notice and we never agreed to a shorter notice. As you guys know if you have been reading this thread I have a text from him stating that I could move out anytime up until the day I paid rent.

I was just wondering if a landlord gives you notice are you free to move out or do you have to give them notice before you do? The reason I ask is because I thought him finally admitting to have given me notice first could maybe support my case further if it goes to court...

spaceHopper

cinnamony wrote: »

I was just wondering if a landlord gives you notice are you free to move out or do you have to give them notice before you do? The reason I ask is because I thought him finally admitting to have given me notice first could maybe support my case further if it goes to court...

No clue, but he was not a LL and you were a license so there are not rules. It sounds like you have a good case. At this stage he's blowing smoke up your ar.... just let the small claims handle it. Shoot him back an email saying you've lodged a claim with the SCC and that he either returns the deposit now or explains it to the court.

Closer to the time do up a narrative of the time line and print out text and emails.

TheChizler

spaceHopper wrote: »

Closer to the time do up a narrative of the time line and print out text and emails.

I'd be doing that now while it's fresh TBH.

EagererBeaver

And if he wants to pay you and stop it going to small claims, tell him you want the €25 quid fee as well!

cinnamony

spaceHopper wrote: »

No clue, but he was not a LL and you were a license so there are not rules. It sounds like you have a good case. At this stage he's blowing smoke up your ar.... just let the small claims handle it. Shoot him back an email saying you've lodged a claim with the SCC and that he either returns the deposit now or explains it to the court.

Closer to the time do up a narrative of the time line and print out text and emails.

I've read before that licensees have to give notice that match to the frequency theybpaid rent? However I only didnt give him a months notice only because we had agreed I could move out when he gave me my notice... It actually doesn't make sense to me why he states I was supposed to have given him notice when he had already done that...

I replied to his statement earlier urging he do not e-mail me anymore as his dishonesty has caused enough stress and that the next time I would see him would be in court. I just hope it gets to him before he sells!

TheChizler wrote: »

I'd be doing that now while it's fresh TBH.

Yup I did this while I was filling my claim, I know the exact dates because of statements and texts sent to friends, diary entries etc discussing this issue. He made his own timeline as well except he distorted the facts. Which thankfully contradict his text...

cinnamony

Hey all since I got such good advice here I thought I'd post an update.

My former "landlord" contacted me today offering me 50% of the deposit if I drop the case against him otherwise he will dispute it by stating we never agreed I could move out earlier.

I told him to go ahead because I'm not going to give up on my money. This guy FIRMLY believes he was an actual landlord with a tenant

challengemaster

In a text, by any chance?