Smokeless Coal

roundymac

Will the ban on ordinary coal which is about to be extended to cover the whole country apply to the RPSI and their steam trains and if so will it affect them in any way.

tabbey

Steam trains without smoke would be like Hamlet without the prince

Artificial smoke would have to be added for enthusiasts benefit, at least when accelerating up hills.

railer201

tabbey wrote: »

Steam trains without smoke would be like Hamlet without the prince

Artificial smoke would have to be added for enthusiasts benefit, at least when accelerating up hills.

......or a Hamlet without a lighter

flyingsnail

I believe the regulations contain a heritage exemption

L1011

"smokeless" fuels produce quite a significant amount of vapour. They aren't smog-forming to the same level as bituminous coal, that's about it.

tabbey

On a serious note, if heritage operators were denied the use of conventional coal, would locomotives actually produce enough heat and steam pressure to power a train?

L1011

Smokeless coal that produces decent, possibly equivalent heat exists, it's just dear. The wax bound dust nuggets won't be what is used

railer201

Let's not forget the unique fragrance a steamer produces which is a combination of steam and coal smoke with a hint of hot oil vapour. The 'Eau de Cologne' of steam enthusiasts.

demanufactured

tabbey wrote: »

On a serious note, if heritage operators were denied the use of conventional coal, would locomotives actually produce enough heat and steam pressure to power a train?

Probably produce more... Have you ever seen a stove burning anthicite?

goingnowhere

Steam locomotives are very very fussy about the exact type of coal they use

The firebox is designed specifically with the type of coal in mind. The size and shape of the firebox and grate is based on the fuel used.

Welsh Steam coal is traditionally viewed as the best in the business for steam engine use

tabbey

goingnowhere wrote: »

Steam locomotives are very very fussy about the exact type of coal they use

The firebox is designed specifically with the type of coal in mind. The size and shape of the firebox and grate is based on the fuel used.

Welsh Steam coal is traditionally viewed as the best in the business for steam engine use

This is what I also understood.

With the fuel crisis of 1946-47, CIE converted some steam locos to burn oil instead of coal. These can be identified in photos of the time, by a white mark painted on the tender.

These oil burners became too hot, with the result that grates and boiler tubes were damaged, hastening their withdrawal. As they would shortly be replaced by diesel traction, it was not worth the cost of overhaul.

sporty56

Fairly sure ban coming in next Autumn is only for the sale of smokey coal nationwide meaning it can still be used here.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

tabbey

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Flying Snail believes so, I expect he is right, the alternative would be unjust.

goingnowhere

tabbey wrote: »

Flying Snail believes so, I expect he is right, the alternative would be unjust.

Or it could be very just on the regular passengers delayed by steam engines unable to operate reliably

Nekarsulm

demanufactured wrote: »

Probably produce more... Have you ever seen a stove burning anthicite?

Anthracite is a completely different beast....

Losty Dublin

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Anthracite is a completely different beast....

The Cavan and Leitrim did fine on it. Or maybe not

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

Or it could be very just on the regular passengers delayed by steam engines unable to operate reliably

i'm sure it would, but it's not all that common. the mountains and mountains of delays experienced on an almost weekly basis by something or other however, is a huge issue that needs tackling before any attacks on steam tours running on the mainline.

goingnowhere

Got a 3 digit number for you 461, failed more often than it ran for several years

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

Got a 3 digit number for you 461, failed more often than it ran for several years

not all of those would have been on the main line. some would have been before or at the end of the trip, where the engine wouldn't have been blocking the main line. of course, a breakdown and subsiquent delay is unfortunate but realistically
1. the general failures and delays that plague the railway quite often are of far more pressing concern then the odd failure of an elderly steam engine which is only ever on the mainline maybe once twice a year and behaves itself 99% of the time.
2. all steam tours here now have a diesel attached or within range i believe so things should be able to move quite quickly.

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

not all of those would have been on the main line. some would have been before or at the end of the trip, where the engine wouldn't have been blocking the main line. of course, a breakdown and subsiquent delay is unfortunate but realistically

Anytime 461 failed in traffic she was always on a mainline. One such fail was at Sallins on an All Ireland semi final weekend. A rescue engine took 90 minutes to come and take the tour onwards to Kilkenny. On the way home she blew an axle and had to be dropped off the train; again this added over an hour to the trip as timetabled trains were delayed.

monument

For clarity as a warning, I’m noting the following: I’ve deleted a post mainly because it named a person.

Claiming any person was “busy pricking” is just hot air and pointless, while talking about grant funding isn’t when it could be viewed as implying something— in any case, it’s going way off topic.

— moderator

MGWR

tabbey wrote: »

Steam trains without smoke would be like Hamlet without the prince

Artificial smoke would have to be added for enthusiasts benefit, at least when accelerating up hills.

The first locomotives actually burned coke, due to ordinances requiring them to "consume their own smoke".

True enthusiasts actually do not like to see dark black smoke coming out of a locomotive's smokebox through the chimney; it's a sign of bad firing, i.e. inefficient burning of the fuel. Not even necessary going up grades. Black smoke can occur with oil burners too.

Lots of "camelback" and other specialised locomotives in the USA burned anthracite, in those extra-wide Wootten fireboxes.

As for Irish-specific railway operations, anyone in the preservation business thought of replicating the turf-burning experiments? Might take some unorthodox measures, such as using Franco-Crosti boilers.

whisky_galore

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Cavan and Leitrim did fine on it. Or maybe not

Someone up there once claimed they kept a half ton of Arigna coal handy around the place "in case a fire broke out."

Cookie_Monster

goingnowhere wrote: »

Welsh Steam coal is traditionally viewed as the best in the business for steam engine use

I thought it was all Polish stuff these days. Have definitely read reference to UK heritage operations importing the stuff.

tabbey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I thought it was all Polish stuff these days.

Growing up in the 1960s, purchasers were offered three varieties of coal: English, American or German

The English coal was actually Welsh!
The American coal was from Texas (still American)
The German coal was from Silesia, so German pre-1945, but now Polish.

Silesian coal may burn at different temperatures than Welsh, but for occasional use probably doesnot do any damage to grates, tubes etc.

PS - This time 1943 - 1947, people would have been very glad to have got any sort of coal, from any source.

whisky_galore

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I thought it was all Polish stuff these days. Have definitely read reference to UK heritage operations importing the stuff.

Only a handful of working Welsh mines exist, the British coal industry is only a shadow of what it once was. Afaik, the uk preservationists use Polish or Russian coal in addition to the dwindling supplies of native coal.

roundymac

flyingsnail wrote: »

I believe the regulations contain a heritage exemption

Has that been confirmed?

deisedav

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Anthracite is a completely different beast....

Anthracite is a relatively clean burning coal and give off very little smoke.

Irish Steve

My understanding of the issues with different coals is how the fire behaves when burning, some coals produce large clinker lumps, and the effect of this can be to produce a hole in the fire that then allows colder air to pass through the fire, and this then reduces the heat that passes into the boiler tubes and heats the water.

A good few years ago, I was involved for a while with small scale steam engines, and it was a serious problem for them, as there was not the same space to get tools through the fire hole to break up clinker, the wrong coal could literally leave the engine stranded away from the main operation site. I had a trip to the UK during that time, and brought back half a tonne of welsh steam coal, and for the next while, we had no problems with firing the locomotives, as it was very free burning coal that didn't form large clinker lumps, so perfect for the small fireboxes of the models in use.

The larger engines of the GWR in the UK were very much designed around the use of Welsh Steam Coal, as it was produced in their area of operation, and those engines need it to provide the best performance and reliability, while they can run on other coals, excess clinker or hot spots that can cause warping, damage or distortion of grate bars are a regular problem when other grades of coal are used.

flyingsnail

roundymac wrote: »

Has that been confirmed?

While I have not seen the wording myself, contact was with the department by various organisations and it is expected that the regulations will contain a heritage vehicles exemption to cover steam trains, traction engines ect..