When an under-age girl has a relationship with a man.

political analyst

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

Gatling

Not before the Kilkenny abuse enquiry back in the early nineties ,
But the 20 year old . sleeping with a child is still sick and very wrong

The_Valeyard

Well, dont be in your 20s sleeping with a 15 year old.

ToddyDoody

In this day and age we generally frown upon that sort of thing?

13 was fine back in medieval times, mind. (12 was the legal age for girls)

political analyst

Gatling wrote: »

Not before the Kilkenny abuse enquiry back in the early nineties ,
But the 20 year old . sleeping with a child is still sick and very wrong

It certainly is. But I'm talking about something much more recent.

_Whimsical_

political analyst wrote: »

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

JiminyRickets

Know of a father who banged up the teenage daughters mate....wife leaves and the pregnant teenager moves into the house with the friend and dad/father.

Just when you think all those Jeremy kyle eejits are actors...you hear stuff like that. Amazing.

s7ryf3925pivug

I would consider it unethical to have ignored that from a position of responsibility... Don't know if there was a relevant code of ethics or something, if that's what you mean

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

_Whimsical_

Owryan wrote: »

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

political analyst

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

But a man would get a more severe penalty. In the so-called "Romeo and Juliet case" in which the Supreme Court ruled that the criminalisation of the boy for full sexual intercourse while not criminalising the girl was justified, the boy got a six-month suspended sentence and was not placed on the sex offenders register - the girl said she did not agree to have sex with the boy. The DPP has discretion in cases where both parties are under the age of consent.

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

Is that with regard to reckless endangerment - an offence created in law in 2006? The offence "misprision of felony" disappeared because of the abolition of the misdemeanour/felony distinction in the 1990s.

Owryan

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

When is sleeping with a 15yo not abuse? Especially if the other person is an "adult". Or are you saying because they are in a relationship it's somehow different?

Professor Moriarty

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

Not if they are the same age. Nor would a 15 year old girl/boy having sex with a 14 year old girl/boy be considered equally culpable as a 20 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

_Whimsical_

political analyst wrote: »

But a man would get a more severe penalty. In the so-called "Romeo and Juliet case" in which the Supreme Court ruled that the criminalisation of the boy for full sexual intercourse while not criminalising the girl was justified, the boy got a six-month suspended sentence and was not placed on the sex offenders register - the girl said she did not agree to have sex with the boy. The DPP has discretion in cases where both parties are under the age of consent.

That's true, there would be a more severe penalty but if a 15yr old girl and a man within a 10 yr age gap arrived at a doctor or hospital and presented themselves as in a relationship I don't think professionals would immediately decide this was clear cut abuse. I haven't heard of them reporting cases like this as statutory rape either. I think they more tended to stay out of it.

political analyst

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

But professionals couldn't ignore it, could they?!

The correct term is "defilement". A boy could still be charged and convicted on a charge of common-law rape if the girl said he forced himself on her.

_Whimsical_

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not if they are the same age. Nor would a 15 year old girl/boy having sex with a 14 year old girl/boy be considered equally culpable as a 20 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

pickarooney

Every time I look at this thread the title seems to change from 'man (14)' now to 'man (18)'

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

Is that with regard to reckless endangerment - an offence created in law in 2006? The offence "misprision of felony" disappeared because of the abolition of the misdemeanour/felony distinction in the 1990s.

There is a criminal justice act 2012 (i think) that legislates for failing to report suspected abuse.

Professor Moriarty

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

Yeah it's very subjective. Not sure how far you'd get though if there was say 6 months between them and it was consensual. Nor should law be involved perhaps.

_Whimsical_

Owryan wrote: »

When is sleeping with a 15yo not abuse? Especially if the other person is an "adult". Or are you saying because they are in a relationship it's somehow different?

Nope I'm not saying that. I'm saying doctors etc don't seem to report on clear-cut instances of statutory rape so I'd be surprised if they'd report abuse in the same situation unless there were other factors definitely pointing in that direction.
I don't think it's ok at all that anyone sleeps with a 15 year old.

Owryan

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

There is consideration that if there is not more than a 2 year age gap then there may not be any proscecution but I'm hazy on the details

Professor Moriarty

Owryan wrote: »

There is a criminal justice act 2012 (i think) that legislates for failing to report suspected abuse.

Children First act (2015) is the latest legislation.

political analyst

pickarooney wrote: »

Every time I look at this thread the title seems to change from 'man (14)' now to 'man (18)'

If the male is at least 18 years old, I refer to him as a man.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

_Whimsical_

political analyst wrote: »

But professionals couldn't ignore it, could they?!

The correct term is "defilement". A boy could still be charged and convicted on a charge of common-law rape if the girl said he forced himself on her.

I don't think they're ignore it now. Id hope not. However before manditory reporting it would be up to the descretion of the professionals involved and if they were satisfied that the girl want coerced etc they usually left it be I'd say. They're definition of "satisfied" would probably not be mine though. I'm sure some would be happy with saying "you weren't forced were you?" or "do you love him" etc.

weldoninhio

political analyst wrote: »

It certainly is. But I'm talking about something much more recent.

In Vatican City the age of consent is 18. Unless you are married then it’s 14 for girls and 16 for boys. Which is a bit crazy.

_Whimsical_

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's probably exactly why there is less reporting expect in very clear cut circumstances. There was a time in Ireland where girls hid pregnancies and gave birth to babies only to leave them to die of abandon them because they feared what it would mean for their place in society or their relationship because of social or religious pressures. Id say you walk a very fine line with girls of that age in such a vulnerable position. You can't isolate them from the help they need and it probably means overlooking things sometimes.

weldoninhio

ToddyDoody wrote: »

In this day and age we generally frown upon that sort of thing?

13 was fine back in medieval times, mind. (12 was the legal age for girls)

14 is legal in Germany, Italy and Portugal.

Owryan

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Children First act (2015) is the latest legislation.

I'm aware of that but the 2012 legislation was in reference to where the power to proscecute non reporting of suspected abuse

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

I'm aware of that but the 2012 legislation was in reference to where the power to proscecute non reporting of suspected abuse

The following article was published two months ago:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/child-protection-system-not-ready-for-mandatory-reporting-of-abuse-concerns-461744.html

From December 11, under the Children First Act 2015, all individuals and groups dealing with children will be obliged to report child protection concerns that cross a defined threshold to Tusla.

Owryan

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Nope I'm not saying that. I'm saying doctors etc don't seem to report on clear-cut instances of statutory rape so I'd be surprised if they'd report abuse in the same situation unless there were other factors definitely pointing in that direction.
I don't think it's ok at all that anyone sleeps with a 15 year old.

Ah ok, thanks for clearing it up. In my limited experience doctors, esp in hospitals, were fairly proactive in reporting suspicions. I'm not sure about gp's tho.

What did surprise me in relation to non reporting was that families were the biggest culprits. But like you said it depends on the situation. A family might accept their 16yo daughter having sex but another family might not.

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

Ah ok, thanks for clearing it up. In my limited experience doctors, esp in hospitals, were fairly proactive in reporting suspicions. I'm not sure about gp's tho.

What did surprise me in relation to non reporting was that families were the biggest culprits. But like you said it depends on the situation. A family might accept their 16yo daughter having sex but another family might not.

On that note - the girl in the case I referred to in my OP is of a dysfunctional family. The man with whom she is in a relationship has several District Court convictions - including theft and public order offences.

_Whimsical_

political analyst wrote: »

On that note - the girl in the case I referred to in my OP is of a dysfunctional family. The man with whom she is in a relationship has several District Court convictions - including theft and public order offences.

That is very worrying but it doesn't surprise me. When you have some context for these things they are much clearer. I don't know how a medical professional wouldn't be asking very serious questions about the girls welfare of they knew that. The sad thing is that they probably don't.

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

On that note - the girl in the case I referred to in my OP is of a dysfunctional family. The man with whom she is in a relationship has several District Court convictions - including theft and public order offences.

Purely out of nosiness did you report your concerns to tusla?

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

Purely out of nosiness did you report your concerns to tusla?

Considering that she was 16 when she and her boyfriend conceived their second - and surviving - child, I don't see the point.

I have reported the boyfriend to the gardaí for threatening behaviour (Don't ask me why he threatened me - I just don't know!) and the court summons is being processed at the moment.

political analyst

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

That is very worrying but it doesn't surprise me. When you have some context for these things they are much clearer. I don't know how a medical professional wouldn't be asking very serious questions about the girls welfare of they knew that. The sad thing is that they probably don't.

Maybe they did - but, for obvious reasons, it certainly wouldn't be public knowledge.

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

Considering that she was 16 when she and her boyfriend conceived their second - and surviving - child, I don't see the point.

I have reported the boyfriend to the gardaí for threatening behaviour (Don't ask me why he threatened me - I just don't know!) and the court summons is being processed at the moment.

So you are aware or an underage girl in a sexual, potentially abusive relationship with an adult and you don't see the need to report it, but you hope a gp/doctor will.

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

So you are aware or an underage girl in a sexual, potentially abusive relationship with an adult and you don't see the need to report it, but you hope a gp/doctor will.

I don't need to report it because, presumably, gardaí, health and social care professionals and civil servants are already aware of it!

The boyfriend has done time in a young offenders' institution but I don't know what offence he was detained for.

lawred2

Surely the title should be 'when a man has a relationship with an under age child'

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

I don't need to report it because, presumably, gardaí, health and social care professionals and civil servants are already aware of it!

The boyfriend has done time in a young offenders' institution but I don't know what offence he was detained for.

But, you do realise they may not be aware of it.

Remember those TV ads where the message was if you see a fire, report it, don't assume someone else already has.

Professor Moriarty

Owryan wrote: »

But, you do realise they may not be aware of it.

Remember those TV ads where the message was if you see a fire, report it, don't assume someone else already has.

According to the OP's OP, she became pregnant aged 15. The medical professionals and (probably) the social worker would have investigated how she became pregnant and acted accordingly. If matters are as outlined in the OP, there is no need to report.

political analyst

lawred2 wrote: »

Surely the title should be 'when a man has a relationship with an under age child'

The girl is now in her early 20s - their children were born a long time ago.

lawred2

political analyst wrote: »

The girl is now in her early 20s - their children were born a long time ago.

How does that change anything?

Owryan

political analyst wrote: »

The girl is now in her early 20s - their children were born a long time ago.

From the op it appeared as though this was a recent occurance.

political analyst

lawred2 wrote: »

How does that change anything?

It means there's no onus on me to report it - I wasn't even aware of their existence when they got together. She and her boyfriend had been taunting me on occasions over a couple of years - she's definitely no innocent - though it was her boyfriend who approached me in a threatening manner.

political analyst

Owryan wrote: »

From the op it appeared as though this was a recent occurance.

Relatively recent - the girl gave birth to her second child when she was 17 and is now in her early 20s. The boyfriend was in his early 20s when they conceived their first child, who was born and died when the girl was 16.

ligerdub

Is the title of this thread the original draft title for a song by Percy Sledge?

political analyst

ligerdub wrote: »

Is the title of this thread the original draft title for a song by Percy Sledge?

It's the title of the scenario we're discussing - there are many cases like the one I mentioned - and it's not funny!

gozunda

political analyst wrote: »

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s ...

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

Why are you asking?