Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

volchitsa · 31-12-2017 6:48pm

end of the road wrote: »

she should have been jailed like all other drug importers. she imported illegal drugs into the country, the fact they were abortion pills should have made no difference.

the state can't stop people from traveling ultimately. unless they have the wrong documentation, or are a convicted criminal.

again it's down to the likely hood of an actual prosecution taking place. personally i think while drugs are illegal then all importers/dealers should be treated the same whether it be abortion pills or something else.

Abortion pills aren't illegal, except when intended for use as an abortifacient.
They're used to treat other ailments like arthritis.

But if someone turns up at a hospital after an abortion looking for medical care, the Minister of health has said that she will get the same treatment as someone who is having a miscarriage. Why do all pro lifers (the ones prepared to give their real names anyway!) seem so reluctant to challenge this - if they believe their own claims about abortion that is?

end of the road · 31-12-2017 6:48pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Excuse me? ...want to take life away?

You think that there is a wanting to take life?

That's your thought process?

unless it's for the reasons of FFA or there is a genuine threat to the mother's life which is a case of have to take a life, then yes it's a want to take a life.

volchitsa wrote: »

Abortion pills aren't illegal, except when intended for use as an abortifacient.
They're used to treat other ailments like arthritis.

But if someone turns up at a hospital after an abortion looking for medical care, the Minister of health has said that she will get the same treatment as someone who is having a miscarriage. Why do all pro lifers (the ones prepared to give their real names anyway!) seem so reluctant to challenge this - if they believe their own claims about abortion that is?

you would have to ask those people. those of us on the pro-life side have a number of differing viewpoints on various aspects of the debate. we only ultimately agree on the main point that abortion on demand has no place in ireland.

Andyfitzer · 31-12-2017 6:52pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Excuse me? ...want to take life away?

You think that there is a wanting to take life?

That's your thought process?

Yes, that's what the report that I referenced at the start wants to do. Allow abortion (the taking of life).

volchitsa · 31-12-2017 6:55pm

end of the road wrote: »

unless it's for the reasons of FFA or there is a genuine threat to the mother's life which is a case of have to take a life, then yes it's a want to take a life.

So just to be clear, someone who uses contraception because a pregnancy would be a disaster for them at that point in their life, you're okay with that, right? That's being responsible, not "wanting to take a life", right?

But if the contraception fails, and the same couple decide to terminate that pregnancy immediately, then it's fair to accuse them of some strange desire to "take life" for the sake of taking life or something?

Really? Aren't they just the same couple with the same problem as a month before, only rather more urgent now?

volchitsa · 31-12-2017 6:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

you would have to ask those people. those of us on the pro-life side have a number of differing viewpoints on various aspects of the debate. we only ultimately agree on the main point that abortion on demand has no place in ireland.

So just a cop out from you then.

Have you personally reported Deirdre Conroy or Tara Flynn for instance?

Or are you spoofing on here but unwilling to make even the tiniest effort to act in real life?

end of the road · 31-12-2017 7:04pm

volchitsa wrote: »

So just to be clear, someone who uses contraception because a pregnancy would be a disaster for them at that point in their life, you're okay with that, right? That's being responsible, not "wanting to take a life", right?

yes absolutely, i'm fine with that.

volchitsa wrote: »

But if the contraception fails, and the same couple decide to terminate that pregnancy immediately, then it's fair to accuse them of some strange desire to "take life" for the sake of taking life or something?

absolutely. because that's what it is, the taking of a life for the sake of it. there is no threat to the mother.

volchitsa wrote: »

Really? Aren't they just the same couple with the same problem as a month before, only rather more urgent now?

the same couple yes . however they now have a life on the way but they want to have it killed, which is a problem.

volchitsa wrote: »

So just a cop out from you then.

Have you personally reported Deirdre Conroy or Tara Flynn for instance?

Or are you spoofing on here but unwilling to make even the tiniest effort to act in real life?

no copout, just someone who is realistic.. i am doing my bit by supporting the state not facilitating abortion on demand in ireland, and by voting no to repeal of the 8th due to the refusal to guarantee against abortion on demand being legislated for, for which had that happened i would vote to repeal.

lawred2 · 31-12-2017 7:22pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

Excuse me? ...want to take life away?

You think that there is a wanting to take life?

That's your thought process?

Yes, that's what the report that I referenced at the start wants to do. Allow abortion (the taking of life).

It's not really worth discussing with someone who has constructed a narrative in their own heads that this is about wanting to take life.

end of the road · 31-12-2017 7:27pm

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not really worth discussing with someone who has constructed a narrative in their own heads that this is about wanting to take life.

the problem is it's not a narrative but a fact. if someone wants an abortion on demand they want to take the life. they are not being forced to take the life, they are choosing to do it.
where your view is correct is in the case of FFA or where there is a threat to the mother's life, where the life is been taken out of necessity.

Andyfitzer · 31-12-2017 7:33pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

This is equally true of cows, potted plants and bacteria.

Sure, life is an amazing and miraculous thing - but most of us don't hesitate to take antibiotics to slaughter each miraculous instance of Streptococcus that causes us discomfort.

No, this is the natural consequence of self preservation. All animals will naturally do that. We deem humans to be a level above that form of life due to self awareness etc.

Sure, if you're desperately reaching for an argument for claiming that a fertilised egg is a human being complete with rights, it makes sense to point out that a fertilised egg is alive and has its own distinct DNA. But that doesn't make it a person. Well, no. That would imply that the sperm and egg are dead, and that life miraculously happens when they meet. But both are already alive, and when they merge to form a zygote, that zygote is still alive, just like a red blood cell is alive.

Steady with the "desperation". I'll forgive you as it's an outlier from your normal attitude ðŸ˜‰
I suppose that I'm more considering the creation of a human, and have been clumsy in my expression of what I mean. This can be a problem for me (clumsy expression).

You can argue that because a zygote might (but probably won't) continue on to become a person, that that makes the zygote a person. But part of the zygote will continue on to become extraembryonic tissue. Is this tissue a human being? If the zygote splits to create identical twins, and if the zygote was already a human being before this happened, does that mean that the twins are just one person? Or is this splitting another Frankenstein moment where a life magically appears where it didn't previously exist?

A most excellent point which I need to consider further.

The distinction is between "spontaneous" and "induced" abortion. Spontaneous abortion is usually called miscarriage, but most spontaneous abortions happen without the mother ever realising fertilisation had taken place. We go to great lengths to prevent heart attacks, and to help people survive them. If a zygote is as valuable a human being as a grown adult, why don't we go to the same lengths to prevent miscarriages?

Well, we do. Lots of research there, but such a difficult thing to do due to the scale.

Why do people who get so upset about induced abortions not seem to care about spontaneous abortions?

Ah, but they do. It's just such a natural thing, not much to debate. Here we can stop people doing something deemed immoral by some.

And you're completely entitled to hold that view, and to never consider procuring an abortion for yourself. The problems start when you impose that belief - and, remember, it's only a belief - on other people, and dictating to women that they have no choice but to remain pregnant because of your personal views.

Societal personal views make up the morality we government by. In that context, and that of this discussion, I'm entirely entitled.

As I've described above, I think it's informed by a lack of understanding of the mechanics of sexual reproduction. No offence.

No offence taken. Some very interesting points, though I disagree with a fair portion.

Andyfitzer · 31-12-2017 7:34pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

No offence taken. Some very interesting points, though I disagree with a fair portion.

I'm new to this, and most of my responses are in the quoted content above this. #fail!!

Andyfitzer · 31-12-2017 8:22pm

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not really worth discussing with someone who has constructed a narrative in their own heads that this is about wanting to take life.

How is it different from my point of view where you have a narrative that it's not? You want to debate only with people who share your views?

blanch152 · 31-12-2017 8:30pm

end of the road wrote: »

that's not comparible to the issue of protections for the unborn though. either the unborn has rights or it doesn't. that's ultimately what it comes down to.

Of course the unborn have rights. Animals have rights, plants have rights, humans have rights, etc.

What matters is where those rights appear in a heirarchy of rights, as not all rights are equal.

lawred2 · 31-12-2017 8:35pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not really worth discussing with someone who has constructed a narrative in their own heads that this is about wanting to take life.

How is it different from my point of view where you have a narrative that it's not? You want to debate only with people who share your views?

It's just too outlandish a position for me really. And too fundamental. Your position is that of someone who thinks that there are women and men who are seeking to advance a position based on a want to take life. It's a very dim light to hold people in. I find it's best to debate with someone when I can at least begin to understand their point of view. You can call that an echo chamber if you like.

Andyfitzer · 31-12-2017 9:17pm

Consonata wrote: »

I mean you didn't exactly try and offer any evidence yourself to discredit the idea.

Typically people who are exceptionally pro-life, are also economically conservative, as I know you are yourself. That means low public spending in education, cut child benefit, cut health services. All of these things make it exceptionally difficult to raise a child in this country. This is added to funding really poor forms of sexual education which ultimately lead to more children being born who won't be looked after adequately.

I mean it really comes down to what your values are. A bunch of cells barely larger than a few hairs, or a living person who has to go through the traumatic process of pregnancy?

I don't think that is a hard question.

It's is a hard question if you don't believe they are just a bunch of cells. The born human can argue with you, jump up and down. Easy to acquiesce to them, because the human in the womb is giving you nothing. If it was a human on a bed in a coma, you would be slower to agree to take the life. If the foetus is of equal importance purely because they are alive and human (I and many others hold that view), then it's an easier decision to say no to abortion.
And if the only argument you have is to try to discredit the pro life with swathes of tar, you need to think harder. Our societal consciences are being ignored because it's easier.

Consonata · 31-12-2017 9:23pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

It's is a hard question if you don't believe they are just a bunch of cells. The born human can argue with you, jump up and down. Easy to acquiesce to them, because the human in the womb is giving you nothing. If it was a human on a bed in a coma, you would be slower to agree to take the life. If the foetus is of equal importance purely because they are alive and human (I and many others hold that view), then it's an easier decision to say no to abortion.
And if the only argument you have is to try to discredit the pro life with swathes of tar, you need to think harder. Our societal consciences are being ignored because it's easier.

The foetus's life obviously is not of equal importance because of its level of dependence on the mother. The potential for life always plays second fiddle to actual life. The acorn is not the oak tree.

oscarBravo · 31-12-2017 10:27pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

Here we can stop people doing something deemed immoral by some.

We should stop people doing things deemed immoral by society, not by some. You don't get to impose your personal morality on people - unless you're in the majority, in which case you do - but I'm hopeful that the days when the irrational belief that a fertilised egg is a person could be used to force someone to be pregnant against their will are numbered.

Andyfitzer · 01-01-2018 12:41am

oscarBravo wrote: »

We should stop people doing things deemed immoral by society, not by some. You don't get to impose your personal morality on people - unless you're in the majority, in which case you do - but I'm hopeful that the days when the irrational belief that a fertilised egg is a person could be used to force someone to be pregnant against their will are numbered.

I sense a strong superiority complex from you. Nothing irrational about that belief. Your belief could be treated equally. You make some interesting points, but filled with condescension. Your version of morality is equally valid as mine until the majority decide. I think you fail to grasp my comments are in the context of a discussion. I'm not imposing them on anyone unless the majority agree in the future. You might get a nose bleed up on that horse

oscarBravo · 01-01-2018 2:59pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

I sense a strong superiority complex from you.

Ad hominem.

Nothing irrational about that belief. Your belief could be treated equally. You make some interesting points, but filled with condescension.

You're squirming away from addressing my "interesting points" by criticising me instead of my arguments. That's a sure-fire indication that you can't attack those arguments with reason, so you're resorting to butt-hurt.

The belief that a fertilised egg is a person is irrational because (among other reasons) a fertilised egg can become two people. You hand-wave this away by describing it as "interesting" but refuse to engage with it because you're cross with me for not being nice enough to you.

If my "belief" can be treated as irrational, kindly point out what about it is irrational, ideally without ad-hominem attacks.

Your version of morality is equally valid as mine until the majority decide.

My "version of morality" doesn't require forcing women to be pregnant against their will.

I think you fail to grasp my comments are in the context of a discussion. I'm not imposing them on anyone unless the majority agree in the future.

If you personally believe that a fertilised egg is a person, and choose not to have an abortion on that basis, that's completely fine: it's called choice. If you take that belief and use it as the basis for voting for a situation where someone else is denied a choice, that's not fine, and you are imposing your views on others.

I don't care what your beliefs are, until your beliefs translate into a vote for taking rights away from people who objectively are human beings. Then your beliefs - or, more accurately, the actions informed by your beliefs - are subject to criticism.

You might get a nose bleed up on that horse

Ad hominem.

Let's address (rather than skirt around) my "interesting point": if a fertilised egg is a person, how can it become two people?

end of the road · 01-01-2018 3:30pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

If my "belief" can be treated as irrational, kindly point out what about it is irrational, ideally without ad-hominem attacks. My "version of morality" doesn't require forcing women to be pregnant against their will. If you personally believe that a fertilised egg is a person, and choose not to have an abortion on that basis, that's completely fine: it's called choice. If you take that belief and use it as the basis for voting for a situation where someone else is denied a choice, that's not fine, and you are imposing your views on others.

it's perfectly fine and it's not imposing one's view on others, it's imposing a rule that protects the right of a human being to live. all of the laws we have are imposing things on society and that is done for the greater good for the most part, even if some may disagree with the laws.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't care what your beliefs are, until your beliefs translate into a vote for taking rights away from people who objectively are human beings. Then your beliefs - or, more accurately, the actions informed by your beliefs - are subject to criticism.

exactly. hence the vote should be to keep the 8th, as by removing it we are removing the rights of the unborn to life, and we are allowing for something that isn't a right (abortion on demand)

MrPudding · 01-01-2018 4:01pm

end of the road wrote: »

she should have been jailed like all other drug importers. she imported illegal drugs into the country, the fact they were abortion pills should have made no difference.

the state can't stop people from traveling ultimately. unless they have the wrong documentation, or are a convicted criminal.

again it's down to the likely hood of an actual prosecution taking place. personally i think while drugs are illegal then all importers/dealers should be treated the same whether it be abortion pills or something else.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. That a woman that has had an abortion illegally is not charged with murder has nothing to do with evidential burden or likelihood of securing a conviction. It is that an abortion, even an illegal one, is not considered to be murder. That is a basic and simple fact.

There is an offence, developed fairly recently, as part of the POLDP Act which covers procuring an abortion illegally. The charge is procuring an abortion, not murder. As pointed out earlier, there are two elements required for their to be murder, the act of unlawfully killing another person, and the intention (in carrying out that act) to cause death or really harm to that person. I would suggest that it is impossible to procure an abortion without intending death or really serious harm to the thing being aborted. Further, there is an unlawful act with causes death. So why is it a charge of procuring an abortion and not murder?

MrP

Gunmonkey · 01-01-2018 4:09pm

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. hence the vote should be to keep the 8th, as by removing it we are removing the rights of the unborn to life, and we are allowing for something that isn't a right (abortion on demand)

Well you could argue that it is also returning a right to all women their right to choose what happens to their own body.

Because a lot of the pro-life arguments scream "we know whats best for women, their opinion doesnt count!". Or how they trumpet up their opinion as more important than the mental/physical/mortal well being of the majority of the females on this island.

end of the road · 01-01-2018 4:17pm

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Well you could argue that it is also returning a right to all women their right to choose what happens to their own body.

i'm afraid not as the right for women to do what they want with their own body has been upheld for a long time now. abortion isn't a woman doing what she wants with her body, it's killing another human being, hence your argument doesn't hold water as one doesn't have an actual right to kill the unborn within this state bar absolute extreme circumstances. even traveling to procure abortion isn't an actual right, you just have the right to travel.

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Because a lot of the pro-life arguments scream "we know whats best for women, their opinion doesnt count!". Or how they trumpet up their opinion as more important than the mental/physical/mortal well being of the majority of the females on this island.

the rights of the unborn come before someone wanting to kill it just because. we do allow abortion in extreme circumstances and that could possibly be extended to include a couple of the circumstances missing such as FFA. we have (all be it isn't perfect) a mental health system to deal with mental health issues, we don't need abortion on demand in our country, and abortion on demand does not solve mental health issues.

MrPudding · 01-01-2018 4:58pm

end of the road wrote: »

i'm afraid not as the right for women to do what they want with their own body has been upheld for a long time now. abortion isn't a woman doing what she wants with her body, it's killing another human being, hence your argument doesn't hold water as one doesn't have an actual right to kill the unborn within this state bar absolute extreme circumstances. even traveling to procure abortion isn't an actual right, you just have the right to travel.

the rights of the unborn come before someone wanting to kill it just because. we do allow abortion in extreme circumstances and that could possibly be extended to include a couple of the circumstances missing such as FFA. we have (all be it isn't perfect) a mental health system to deal with mental health issues, we don't need abortion on demand in our country, and abortion on demand does not solve mental health issues.

OK, will try this one again, but I guess you will do the usual and not answer it, saying it is a hypothetical, it could never happen etc. This is a thought experiment from a book by Julian Baggini. it isn't word for word, but you will get the idea.

Now, this is a thought experiment. That means it isn't necessarily something that is likely to happen, or even that could happen. The purpose of it is to make you think about a particular thing from a different angle, one perhaps you have not considered before. I would be really interested in your answer, if you consider it honestly. Here it is...

You are out celebrating one night with friends, and you have a little too much to drink. You get separated from your mates and stagger home, thing are a little hazy and you kind of black out.

The next day you wake up and you ar ein a strange place. You are on a bed and you have a couple of tubes in your arm. One of the tubes to to a machine, on the other side of the machine is another bed with another person, also connected to the machine.

Someone in a white coat comes quickly to your bedside. He introduces himself as a doctor, and explains what is going on. Last night you volunteered for a medical procedure. The person in the bed next to you has a disease that means his kidneys are not working properly. Traditional dialysis is no longer sufficient for him. A new treatment has been developed whereby the person is connected to someone with healthy kidneys, and those healthy kidneys take over from the sick person's kidneys. Results have been very promising and there is a very good chance that after 9 months the sick person's kidneys will have recovered completely and the person will be able to lead a normal life with no need for dialysis.

If you are disconnected from the person, they will die. Regardless of how you have come to be in the situation you now find yourself in, do you think it is fair for you to be kept in this position for the next 9 months?

Leaving the thought experiment aside, just think about how your right to body integrity works. Donating a pint of blood is, at worst, a minor inconvenience for the vast majority of people. Yet, no one can be compelled to even donate a pint of blood against their will, even if someone will die as a result. Even where that someone is a born person, perhaps a mother with children, maybe a doctor, or a Nobel Prize winner, or maybe just an ordinary person. Doesn't matter. No one can be compelled give a pint of blood, that will delay them for 30 minutes, and their own body will replace free of charge in a matter of weeks. What is it about something that doesn't even have a nervous system that means a grown woman can be forced to carry it against her will for 9 months, but you can't be forced to give a pint of blood to save a Nobel Laureate?

MrP

end of the road · 01-01-2018 5:11pm

MrPudding wrote: »

OK, will try this one again, but I guess you will do the usual and not answer it, saying it is a hypothetical, it could never happen etc. This is a thought experiment from a book by Julian Baggini. it isn't word for word, but you will get the idea.

Now, this is a thought experiment. That means it isn't necessarily something that is likely to happen, or even that could happen. The purpose of it is to make you think about a particular thing from a different angle, one perhaps you have not considered before. I would be really interested in your answer, if you consider it honestly. Here it is...

You are out celebrating one night with friends, and you have a little too much to drink. You get separated from your mates and stagger home, thing are a little hazy and you kind of black out.

The next day you wake up and you ar ein a strange place. You are on a bed and you have a couple of tubes in your arm. One of the tubes to to a machine, on the other side of the machine is another bed with another person, also connected to the machine.

Someone in a white coat comes quickly to your bedside. He introduces himself as a doctor, and explains what is going on. Last night you volunteered for a medical procedure. The person in the bed next to you has a disease that means his kidneys are not working properly. Traditional dialysis is no longer sufficient for him. A new treatment has been developed whereby the person is connected to someone with healthy kidneys, and those healthy kidneys take over from the sick person's kidneys. Results have been very promising and there is a very good chance that after 9 months the sick person's kidneys will have recovered completely and the person will be able to lead a normal life with no need for dialysis.

If you are disconnected from the person, they will die. Regardless of how you have come to be in the situation you now find yourself in, do you think it is fair for you to be kept in this position for the next 9 months?

Leaving the thought experiment aside, just think about how your right to body integrity works. Donating a pint of blood is, at worst, a minor inconvenience for the vast majority of people. Yet, no one can be compelled to even donate a pint of blood against their will, even if someone will die as a result. Even where that someone is a born person, perhaps a mother with children, maybe a doctor, or a Nobel Prize winner, or maybe just an ordinary person. Doesn't matter. No one can be compelled give a pint of blood, that will delay them for 30 minutes, and their own body will replace free of charge in a matter of weeks. What is it about something that doesn't even have a nervous system that means a grown woman can be forced to carry it against her will for 9 months, but you can't be forced to give a pint of blood to save a Nobel Laureate?

MrP

because the unborn isn't in the position to consent to their slaughter/destruction, so therefore we have to implement protections via the law for them bar absolute extreme circumstances.
ultimately we can't force blood or organ donation as there are too many variables such as suitability of the organs and blood.

MrPudding · 01-01-2018 5:30pm

end of the road wrote: »

because the unborn isn't in the position to consent to their slaughter/destruction, so therefore we have to implement protections via the law for them bar absolute extreme circumstances.
ultimately we can't force blood or organ donation as there are too many variables such as suitability of the organs and blood.

Of all the cop-out answers I have seen you give, this one probably takes the award for most cop outy. Seriously, that is your answer, it's complicated? Does the person needing the blood consent to their death? And actually, you raise a good point here, the foetus can't consent. it can't consent as it has neither the awareness nor the faculties to consent, on account of it lacking all the qualities we require in order for something to be considered a person, apart from a heartbeat. Unlike, for example, the Nobel Laureate that needs your blood, that you can't be forced to donate.

And I guess this means you won't answer the thought experiment...?

MrP

Itssoeasy · 01-01-2018 5:51pm

Honestly is there a need to use the word slaugher ? This issue is going to be emotionally charged as it is, and using language like that I feel won't help anyone.

oscarBravo · 01-01-2018 6:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

...it's imposing a rule that protects the right of a human being to live.

A zygote is not a human being. If you won't accept that objective fact, there's literally no point trying to discuss anything with you.

end of the road · 01-01-2018 6:18pm

MrPudding wrote: »

actually, you raise a good point here, the foetus can't consent. it can't consent as it has neither the awareness nor the faculties to consent, on account of it lacking all the qualities we require in order for something to be considered a person, apart from a heartbeat.

MrP

that is why it's rights have to be protected via the law and the constitution. because it has no voice, and it needs something to look out for and uphold it's right to life.

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Honestly is there a need to use the word slaugher ? This issue is going to be emotionally charged as it is, and using language like that I feel won't help anyone.

but that's exactly what it is . i know people find that reality uncomfortable but we cannot shy away from what abortion ultimately is

Itssoeasy · 01-01-2018 6:36pm

end of the road wrote: »

MrPudding wrote: »

actually, you raise a good point here, the foetus can't consent. it can't consent as it has neither the awareness nor the faculties to consent, on account of it lacking all the qualities we require in order for something to be considered a person, apart from a heartbeat.

MrP

that is why it's rights have to be protected via the law and the constitution. because it has no voice, and it needs something to look out for and uphold it's right to life.

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Honestly is there a need to use the word slaugher ? This issue is going to be emotionally charged as it is, and using language like that I feel won't help anyone.

but that's exactly what it is . i know people find that reality uncomfortable but we cannot shy away from what abortion ultimately is

Well I don't think language like that will help undecided voters, and EOTR this vote will be very close I think and will help no one.

I honestly think both sides of this debate will not come out of this process well. This despite the talk that it will be a respectful campaign(which it won't be) and by the end of this year the debate will still be going on.

Consonata · 01-01-2018 7:06pm

end of the road wrote:

i'm afraid not as the right for women to do what they want with their own body has been upheld for a long time now. abortion isn't a woman doing what she wants with her body, it's killing another human being, hence your argument doesn't hold water as one doesn't have an actual right to kill the unborn within this state bar absolute extreme circumstances. even traveling to procure abortion isn't an actual right, you just have the right to travel.

It isn't considered killing another human being though is it? We have made a decision as a society to not charge people procuring illegal abortions with murder have we not? We don't charge them at all. Now unless you wish to throw women into jail for 30 years to life for having an abortions in Birmingham, your argument doesn't hold any water.

end of the road · 01-01-2018 7:16pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well I don't think language like that will help undecided voters, and EOTR this vote will be very close I think and will help no one.

I honestly think both sides of this debate will not come out of this process well. This despite the talk that it will be a respectful campaign(which it won't be) and by the end of this year the debate will still be going on.

i agree both sides of this will not come out well, this will be a very bitter campaign.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-01-2018 1:13am

Andyfitzer wrote: »

Life is such an amazing and mystifying thing

Yes

countries are spending trillions looking for it on earth and beyond

No they're not.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-01-2018 1:14am

AnGaelach wrote: »

That's quite a strange conclusion. "Before the egg is fertilised there is no life, so after the egg is fertilised we can't say for certain there's life until it's born".

Surely, the logical conclusion of your position should be that once the egg is fertilised it has become a life, since its natural progression is to become a life barring any catastrophe that would kill it?

No that's not a logical conclusion at all, and the Supreme Court in Ireland, even with the 8th amendment in place, does not agree with that position.

AnGaelach wrote: »

Again, this doesn't have a bearing on the legalisation of abortion - the foetus encounters an issue which necessitates its own demise. Nobody is saying we should be trying to keep foetuses with FFA alive, we're disputing the fact that they're somehow not a life from when they're conceived.

But that is what the three amigos on the Dail committee were saying.

volchitsa wrote: »

Would you be as relaxed about unexplained deaths of thousands of actual children every year?

When born children were in the care of the catholic church, society didn't seem to care that much. Odd that.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-01-2018 1:21am

Consonata wrote: »

It isn't considered killing another human being though is it? We have made a decision as a society to not charge people procuring illegal abortions with murder have we not? We don't charge them at all. Now unless you wish to throw women into jail for 30 years to life for having an abortions in Birmingham, your argument doesn't hold any water.

POLDPA which was oh so controversial several government TDs felt compelled to resign, only four years ago, did not define abortion as murder.

The 1861 Offences Against The Person Act, which POLDPA replaced... guess what... didn't define abortion as murder either. Murder resulted in hanging, abortion was a separate offence which 'merely' resulted in a life sentence. Those damn immoral Victorians still saw a difference between a foetus and a born human.

Those still not convinced should look to their bible (both Jews and the Roman Catholic Church regarded first trimester abortion as perfectly acceptable according to scripture - until the RCC changed its position by papal decree in the latter half of the 19th century) - or perhaps read up on St. Brigid.:rolleyes:

"A certain woman who had taken the vow of chastity fell, through youthful desire of pleasure and her womb swelled with child. Brigid, exercising the most potent strength of her ineffable faith, blessed her, causing the child to disappear, without coming to birth, and without pain. She faithfully returned the woman to health and to penance."

recedite · 02-01-2018 10:14am

MrPudding wrote: »

Now, this is a thought experiment. That means it isn't necessarily something that is likely to happen, or even that could happen. The purpose of it is to make you think about a particular thing from a different angle, one perhaps you have not considered before. I would be really interested in your answer, if you consider it honestly. Here it is...

You are out celebrating one night with friends, and you have a little too much to drink. You get separated from your mates and stagger home, thing are a little hazy and you kind of black out.

The next day you wake up and you ar ein a strange place. You are on a bed and you have a couple of tubes in your arm. One of the tubes to to a machine, on the other side of the machine is another bed with another person, also connected to the machine.

Someone in a white coat comes quickly to your bedside. He introduces himself as a doctor, and explains what is going on. Last night you volunteered for a medical procedure. The person in the bed next to you has a disease that means his kidneys are not working properly. Traditional dialysis is no longer sufficient for him. A new treatment has been developed whereby the person is connected to someone with healthy kidneys, and those healthy kidneys take over from the sick person's kidneys. Results have been very promising and there is a very good chance that after 9 months the sick person's kidneys will have recovered completely and the person will be able to lead a normal life with no need for dialysis.

If you are disconnected from the person, they will die. Regardless of how you have come to be in the situation you now find yourself in, do you think it is fair for you to be kept in this position for the next 9 months?

Leaving the thought experiment aside, just think about how your right to body integrity works. Donating a pint of blood is, at worst, a minor inconvenience for the vast majority of people. Yet, no one can be compelled to even donate a pint of blood against their will, even if someone will die as a result. Even where that someone is a born person, perhaps a mother with children, maybe a doctor, or a Nobel Prize winner, or maybe just an ordinary person. Doesn't matter. No one can be compelled give a pint of blood, that will delay them for 30 minutes, and their own body will replace free of charge in a matter of weeks. What is it about something that doesn't even have a nervous system that means a grown woman can be forced to carry it against her will for 9 months, but you can't be forced to give a pint of blood to save a Nobel Laureate?
MrP

If you had signed the permission slip/contract in that situation, then you can't just get up and leave, if doing so kills the other patient.

If you had been abducted and forced into that situation, then the situation is less clear. That's why abortion for rape victims is a lot more acceptable to the general public than abortion in other cases.

The blood transfusion analogy is a complete red herring. Hospitals don't force people to donate blood, nor do they forcibly impregnate people.

volchitsa · 02-01-2018 10:46am

recedite wrote: »

If you had signed the permission slip/contract in that situation, then you can't just get up and leave, if doing so kills the other patient.

If you had been abducted and forced into that situation, then the situation is less clear. That's why abortion for rape victims is a lot more acceptable to the general public than abortion in other cases.

The blood transfusion analogy is a complete red herring. Hospitals don't force people to donate blood, nor do they forcibly impregnate people.

No, the "complete red herring" is the idea that having sex is anything like giving consent to become a parent. Pregnancy is one possible consequence of sex. Just like smoking has a risk of causing lung cancer or if you go climbing you are not consenting to fall and break your neck, nor even to get lost and have to call out the rescue services.

And then there are the people who use contraception - clearly they had no intention of pregnancy or parenthood.

recedite · 02-01-2018 10:52am

volchitsa wrote: »

No, the "complete red herring" is the idea that having sex is anything like giving consent to become a parent.

That's an interesting thought.

I suppose if you take that argument further, you could extend it to child maintenance. No man should ever be chased by the courts for money to support a child he never agreed to have?

Your argument is basically about one person abdicating all responsibilities to other people.

volchitsa · 02-01-2018 11:54am

recedite wrote: »

That's an interesting thought.

I suppose if you take that argument further, you could extend it to child maintenance. No man should ever be chased by the courts for money to support a child he never agreed to have?

You could but the child actually exists, so society has decided that the consequences of denying an existing child its rights to parental support are too important for all of us as a whole to let its parents renege on their responsibilities to it.

The alternative would be to have some children growing up in the streets with no care or education, and that obviously isn't good for any of us, least of all the child, the adult he will become and most of all perhaps the society he will be living in. A recipe for social ills IMO.

recedite wrote: »

Your argument is basically about one person abdicating all responsibilities to other people.

Not sure what you mean. Like adoption? Or like a smoker expecting medical care for his lung cancer? Or like providing emergency services even to people who fall asleep drunk with a cigarette in their hands or who just forget to watch the chip pan?

We abdicate or delegate responsibilities all the time, but I don't think deciding to terminate a pregnancy that you never intended to have in the first place really comes under any of that. It is, after all, the person/couple themselves dealing with the situation.

Having the child and then giving it away - now that's abdicating responsibility. Would you ban adoption for that reason?

recedite · 02-01-2018 1:11pm

volchitsa wrote: »

..society has decided that the consequences of denying an existing child its rights to parental support are too important ..

The "right" to parental support is surely a weaker right than the right to life itself?
Especially in a society where there are more childless parents wanting to adopt babies than there are babies available for adoption.

Andyfitzer · 02-01-2018 1:15pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ad hominem. You're squirming away from addressing my "interesting points" by criticising me instead of my arguments. That's a sure-fire indication that you can't attack those arguments with reason, so you're resorting to butt-hurt.

The belief that a fertilised egg is a person is irrational because (among other reasons) a fertilised egg can become two people. You hand-wave this away by describing it as "interesting" but refuse to engage with it because you're cross with me for not being nice enough to you.

If my "belief" can be treated as irrational, kindly point out what about it is irrational, ideally without ad-hominem attacks. My "version of morality" doesn't require forcing women to be pregnant against their will. If you personally believe that a fertilised egg is a person, and choose not to have an abortion on that basis, that's completely fine: it's called choice. If you take that belief and use it as the basis for voting for a situation where someone else is denied a choice, that's not fine, and you are imposing your views on others.

I don't care what your beliefs are, until your beliefs translate into a vote for taking rights away from people who objectively are human beings. Then your beliefs - or, more accurately, the actions informed by your beliefs - are subject to criticism. Ad hominem.

Let's address (rather than skirt around) my "interesting point": if a fertilised egg is a person, how can it become two people?

Firstly, let me say wrt this Ad hominem you love to use. You started it. Saying I am desperate to add something to my argument that you propose I don't believe myself is attacking my moral fibre. As is saying my motivation is to impose my beliefs on others. As I have said from the outset, these are what I hold to be true, but I want debate to either solidify my position or turn it around.

Secondly, my sincere apologies for merely saying your posts were interesting, and only insinuating that I need to consider them. I now know I must fawn over them and stroke your ego.

I also think you failed to notice my replies to your post which I pointed out I accidentally included in the quoted section, because as I mentioned I'm new to boards and thought that's how you quote sections separately.

To actually reply to one of your points about twins: perhaps, they are one person/entity that clones. It sounds farcical, but Occam's razor might suggest it. Something to consider, I'm not trying to force it on you.

Lastly, this is a discussion, not a battle. The entire tone of your answers so far is of condescension. Be it saying I am desperate, or using Latin phrases few know. I am happy to hear your points, as they are ones I've not encountered before, and have me thinking.

seamus · 02-01-2018 1:48pm

recedite wrote: »

If you had signed the permission slip/contract in that situation, then you can't just get up and leave, if doing so kills the other patient.

That's not correct. Consent is always ongoing as far as is possible. Up until the patient is placed under anaesthetic, they can revoke their consent at any time.

"Permission" slips effectively empower the medical facility to act where the patient is not conscious, such as DNR waivers, etc. While a patient is conscious and compos mentis, they retain full control over their consent, regardless of anything they may have written or signed.

The only exception to this rule is the power of the clinician to act to save the patient's life in an emergency. Even then there would be a lot of paperwork if the patient explicitly told the doctor to stop.

recedite · 02-01-2018 3:00pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

To actually reply to one of your points about twins: perhaps, they are one person/entity that clones.

Very good answer.
A clone or a twin starts becoming a second person due to the different experiences after separation.

BTW I suggest to you that the best way to interact on boards is to ignore any perceived personal attacks or negative "tone" in others, and just stick to the point yourself.

seamus wrote: »

That's not correct. Consent is always ongoing as far as is possible. Up until the patient is placed under anaesthetic, they can revoke their consent at any time.

Yes, but in your scenario the two patients were already hooked up.
If I offer to donate a kidney, I can't decide to take it back afterwards. Or change my mind halfway through the operation.

volchitsa · 02-01-2018 3:27pm

recedite wrote: »

Very good answer.
A clone or a twin starts becoming a second person due to the different experiences after separation.

BTW I suggest to you that the best way to interact on boards is to ignore any perceived personal attacks or negative "tone" in others, and just stick to the point yourself.

Yes, but in your scenario the two patients were already hooked up.
If I offer to donate a kidney, I can't decide to take it back afterwards. Or change my mind halfway through the operation.

Twins are not clones, that's quite a strange and indeed offensive thing to say of them. They are two separate people with their own personalities and desires.

That this fact rather destroys your claim that a single person is created at fertilization should lead you to query that belief, instead of retrofitting nonsensical views about twins so as to maintain that belief.

As for the organ donation thing, that's exactly why a vague agreement is worth nothing, and consent to sex cannot be considered as anything like the degree of consent required before one donates an organ.

This assumption that sex =consent to be a parent is outdated and simply wrong.

recedite · 02-01-2018 3:32pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Twins are not clones, that's quite a strange and indeed offensive thing to say of them. They are two separate people with their own personalities and desires.

Clones are also separate people

Seriously, you need to read up on it a bit more before criticising.
Or watch that movie where the guy had all his clones living in the tree house.

seamus · 02-01-2018 3:44pm

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but in your scenario the two patients were already hooked up.
If I offer to donate a kidney, I can't decide to take it back afterwards. Or change my mind halfway through the operation.

It's not my scenario, but nevertheless if the two patients are already hooked up, yes you can still withdraw consent at any point.

You could change your mind halfway through a donation procedure. Let's say they had opened you up, were just about to disconnect your kidney and you suddenly woke up and told them to stop. They would have to stop.

Donation of a kidney is not really a relevant analogue since there's a very definite point at which the kidney is no longer yours and you no longer have control over it.

The point stands either way; if another human being was connected to you and dependent on you for life, no amount of permission slips or contracts could prevent you from changing your mind and disconnecting, even if it were to result in their death.

volchitsa · 02-01-2018 3:50pm

recedite wrote: »

Clones are also separate people
Seriously, you need to read up on it a bit more before criticising.
Or watch that movie where the guy had all his clones living in the tree house.

Oh right, I mean, now I see.

Err, you get that clones don't exist, right? And that one of the reasons it's against the law to go too far down that road of cloning humans is precisely because it's unclear what their legal status would be wrt their original "owner".

To take your "that film where the guy..." example, that would be a serious crime if those were not "his" clones.

recedite · 02-01-2018 4:15pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Err, you get that clones don't exist, right?

Not human ones anyway, yet.
Or at least, not in the west anyway. In China, I wouldn't be too sure.

recedite · 02-01-2018 4:27pm

seamus wrote: »

You could change your mind halfway through a donation procedure. Let's say they had opened you up, were just about to disconnect your kidney and you suddenly woke up and told them to stop. They would have to stop.

I'm not sure about that. If the other guy was also opened up, then he/she is at risk and is owed something I think.
But I agree we are stretching this analogy a bit too far.

seamus wrote: »

there's a very definite point at which the kidney is no longer yours and you no longer have control over it.

There is also a definite point at which an egg cell is no longer just the mother, but also contains a component of the father. At this point, it is already on track to being its own unique and independent person.

However, the point at which the mother "no longer has control over it" would be another few years :pac:

Andyfitzer · 02-01-2018 4:28pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Twins are not clones, that's quite a strange and indeed offensive thing to say of them. They are two separate people with their own personalities and desires.

That this fact rather destroys your claim that a single person is created at fertilization should lead you to query that belief, instead of retrofitting nonsensical views about twins so as to maintain that belief.
.

I agree, as I said quite clearly, it might be something to consider. Remember me typing that? I've not got a clear handle on it yet. I think you'll find identical twins could be considered clones. One cell becomes two separate beings. Shared DNA. I didn't say they aren't separate people with their own thoughts, as you seem to have concluded.

oscarBravo · 02-01-2018 4:43pm

Andyfitzer wrote: »

To actually reply to one of your points about twins: perhaps, they are one person/entity that clones. It sounds farcical, but Occam's razor might suggest it. Something to consider, I'm not trying to force it on you.

Identical twins are not clones. Their DNA, while almost identical, is still measurably different. They are distinct people, with distinct legal personalities, and with a complete - not shared - set of human rights.

They started out as a single fertilised egg. At some point after that, they each became a person. The religion-informed view is that personhood happens at the moment of conception, which means that those twins were once one person, but now are two people.

Think about that logically for a second. If conception is the only point when personhood begins, then there's no future point at which a second person can have come into being, which means that identical twins are, in fact, just one person.

When you encounter an apparent contradiction, the logical thing to do is to check your premise. The wooliest premise in this case is personhood-from-conception: there's no scientific basis for it; it's just a personal belief.

So, logically, a fertilised egg isn't a person, but a child after birth is. That means that at some point during pregnancy, a clump of cells becomes a person. When does it legally become a person? At birth, generally speaking.

Now, those are my views, but they are views that have been arrived at by analysing the facts as best I can determine or understand them. You may have different views, but unless you can come up with a better analysis than "I dunno, clones?", I'm confident that my views make more objective sense than yours.

Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

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