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Time for High Rise in Dublin City

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    #32
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yes with design limits
    dotsman wrote: »
    But why fine cars or make them register (and register for what)??? Nobody is driving through Dublin city centre today during rush hour for the fun of it. They are doing so because they have no alternative. Hitting them with additional charges will make no difference - you are just punishing them for the lack of proper planning.

    Plenty of park and rides around. Leave it there and use public transport. I used to live in Chapelizod and that was fun even on the motorbike and I was working out in D15.


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    #33
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    yabadabado wrote: »
    Isn't it proven if you get rid of car lanes then drivers will find alternative routes/modes of transport etc.
    On the phone so can't link but any changes need to go hand in hand with improved PT.
    I would be all in favour of a few places in city centre being car free in peak time during the week.

    MN and Dart interconnector should be build ASAP and then make LUAS Green Line heavy rail.

    Unfortunately, they can only use alternative modes of transport if suitable ones exist. And for many people, they simply don't. Again, this is down to lack of planning that takes years and decades. There is no quick fix.


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    #34
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    RasTa wrote: »
    Plenty of park and rides around. Leave it there and use public transport. I used to live in Chapelizod and that was fun even on the motorbike and I was working out in D15.

    Assuming of course that the park and ride transport route brings you to where you need to go?


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    #35
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    IFSC, Grand Canal, Smithfield and Hueston should all be a minimum of double digits. I agree, not skyscrapers, but 6 or 7 story just won't cut it - at least twice that. Ideally, all new buildings in these areas should be anywhere between 10-20 stories.

    I was more talking the city in general rather than specific. Yes have taller buildings in certain like the ones you mentioned just not everywhere.


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    #36
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    Assuming of course that the park and ride transport route brings you to where you need to go?

    They all you into the CC and the suggestion is only to ban cars from the CC


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    #37
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    They all you into the CC and the suggestion is only to ban cars from the CC

    Yes, but the city center is a big place. A park and ride bus taking you to the IFSC is not much good if you are trying to get to Cork Street. Likewise, a Park and Ride Red Luas is not much good if you are trying to get to Wexford Street.

    Park and Rides, along with cycle lanes etc are very specific pieces of a much larger, complex solution. All of which is dependent on proper planning with high density zones with the corresponding public transport links. Again, I go back to my original post - if Dublin had been planned properly, the city and city center would be far more dense and supported by several underground lines as many as 5 tram lines.

    Density increases the number of people who live walking/cycling distance to their place of work and also justifies expensive, high speed public transport connecting the high (and medium) density zones.


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    #38
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    Yes, but the city center is a big place. A park and ride bus taking you to the IFSC is not much good if you are trying to get to Cork Street. Likewise, a Park and Ride Red Luas is not much good if you are trying to get to Wexford Street.

    Nonsense Dublin has a very small CC and now with Luas CC you can change between the two lines to get where you need to go.


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    #39
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Nonsense Dublin has a very small CC and now with Luas CC you can change between the two lines to get where you need to go.

    If you park and ride near swords, take bus to the quays by the IFSC, but your place of work is Cork Street, how do you get there? How long and awkward is your daily commute?

    If you park and ride by the dart line, and are going to Stoneybatter, how do you get there from Tara Street or Connolly? How long and awkward is your daily commute?

    If there were 3 underground lines and 5 tram lines all interconnected, bring in people from numerous park and rides on the city outskirts, covering the entire city center, serviced by frequent, high speed trains then, yes, the entire city center would be very simple to navigate. But, as it is, it is luck of the draw that whatever public transport option is available to you drops you within 5 minutes of your place of work in the city centre.


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    #40
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yes with design limits
    By luas to Stoneybatter now.

    Excuses excuses excuses as always. You would swear Dublin CC is the same size as London or New York the way you are going on.


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    #41
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    If you park and ride near swords, take bus to the quays by the IFSC, but your place of work is Cork Street, how do you get there? How long and awkward is your daily commute?

    If you park and ride by the dart line, and are going to Stoneybatter, how do you get there from Tara Street or Connolly? How long and awkward is your daily commute?

    If there were 3 underground lines and 5 tram lines all interconnected, bring in people from numerous park and rides on the city outskirts, covering the entire city center, serviced by frequent, high speed trains then, yes, the entire city center would be very simple to navigate. But, as it is, it is luck of the draw that whatever public transport option is available to you drops you within 5 minutes of your place of work in the city centre.

    There is no park and ride in Swords for buses atm. The nearest one would be Malahide DART. Btw the Swords Express route 503 goes to Merrion Sq. and the 41x goes South of the river too.

    Stoneybatter is not in the CC for a start and you could get a DART to Connolly + Luas to Smithfield and walk. Changing modes is something that has to be done on many transport systems across the world. Even if the commute on public transport is awkward it's still better than sitting in traffic.


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    #42
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    RasTa wrote: »
    By luas to Stoneybatter now.

    Excuses excuses excuses as always. You would swear Dublin CC is the same size as London or New York the way you are going on.

    There is no luas to Stoneybatter. It's a 20 minute walk from the Museum stop to the Park Shopping Center in Stoneybatter.

    Exactly how many hours a day do you think somebody should spend a day commuting?

    Do you work for DCC by any chance?


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    #43
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    There is no luas to Stoneybatter. It's a 20 minute walk from the Museum stop to the Park Shopping Center in Stoneybatter.

    Exactly how many hours a day do you think somebody should spend a day commuting?

    Do you work for DCC by any chance?

    Used to live in Stoneybatter. It's probably 5 minutes from Smithfield stop to Walshes pub in Stoneybatter, a walk I've done 100s of times.


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    #44
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    There is no luas to Stoneybatter. It's a 20 minute walk from the Museum stop to the Park Shopping Center in Stoneybatter.

    Exactly how many hours a day do you think somebody should spend a day commuting?

    Do you work for DCC by any chance?

    I don't know Stoneybatter that well as I don't live or work there. Anyway how many people do you reckon live on the DART line and work in Stoneybatter I would imagine the number is fairly small.

    People have to make decisions about where they live/work and the commuting distance of where they live/work. If it's not viable because public transport is not good enough or the traffic is too bad. I made the decision re: where I live as it's near the M50 and has good by Dublin standards bus links.


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    #45
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭markpb


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    There is no luas to Stoneybatter. It's a 20 minute walk from the Museum stop to the Park Shopping Center in Stoneybatter.

    Exactly how many hours a day do you think somebody should spend a day commuting?

    Maybe Stoneybater isn't a major residential place or a place where many people go to work? Perhaps it's well served by the bus routes it has today. Plus a 20 minute walk to a rail line is considered acceptable in many cities.
    dotsman wrote: »
    Do you work for DCC by any chance?

    You don't think someone can disagree with you without being paid to do so? That says a lot about your willingness to engage in debate which is funny on a discussion/debate website!


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    #46
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yes with design limits
    dotsman wrote: »
    There is no luas to Stoneybatter. It's a 20 minute walk from the Museum stop to the Park Shopping Center in Stoneybatter.

    Exactly how many hours a day do you think somebody should spend a day commuting?

    Do you work for DCC by any chance?

    Also used to live in Stoneybatter. Not sure why you would get off at the museum. You haven't a clue.


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    #47
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Getting off the point.

    High rise (80m+) has always been resisted by the city planners for two basic reasons a) the ghost of ballymun on their shoulders and b) a dogmatic belief that Dublins latitude and consequently sunshine angle does not lend itself to high rise or 'concrete canyons' as for a good part of the year whole streets would not get sunlight. They have infected the city councillors with these reservations, and they are the ones who effect the zonings, so here we are.

    Varadkar is clearly determined to override this to enable the growth of the city inside the M50, rightly in my view, so high (er) rise is coming, the main concern for me as a professional in the industry is that the highest of design standards be demanded and it not be developer led. Easier said than done i know, but the times are inevitably changing.


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    #48
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    No
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't know Stoneybatter that well as I don't live or work there. Anyway how many people do you reckon live on the DART line and work in Stoneybatter I would imagine the number is fairly small.

    People have to make decisions about where they live/work and the commuting distance of where they live/work. If it's not viable because public transport is not good enough or the traffic is too bad. I made the decision re: where I live as it's near the M50 and has good by Dublin standards bus links.

    My mam used to take the Dart to Tara and walk to Smithfield when she was working there. Less than 20 minutes, for a woman in her late 50s at the time.
    I also used to walk to the Four Courts to work, from Tara, less than 15 mins.


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    #49
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,531 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    No
    DCC is fairly small, very unlikely to be left to your door on PT. No different to any other city.


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    #50
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There is no park and ride in Swords for buses atm. The nearest one would be Malahide DART. Btw the Swords Express route 503 goes to Merrion Sq. and the 41x goes South of the river too.

    Stoneybatter is not in the CC for a start and you could get a DART to Connolly + Luas to Smithfield and walk. Changing modes is something that has to be done on many transport systems across the world. Even if the commute on public transport is awkward it's still better than sitting in traffic.
    Apologies - assumed there would be a park and ride in Swords. So, as a commuter, one would be even more screwed trying to get to work on Cork Street.

    Stoneybatter is 100% in the City Center. What do you define as the city center? Take a look at a map of Dublin and say that Stoneybatter is not in the center of the city. I have no problem with people needing to change modes (as long as the trains have high frequency, so you are not waiting for more than a few minutes between getting off one route and transferring to another).
    Dr Crayfish wrote: »
    Used to live in Stoneybatter. It's probably 5 minutes from Smithfield stop to Walshes pub in Stoneybatter, a walk I've done 100s of times.
    I just picked a random spot on the map. The Park Shopping center in Stoneybatter (and surrounding units) would be a place where a lot of people work and is 20 minute walk from Museum luas stop according to Google Maps. From the map, the Park Shopping Center looks to be in the center of Stoneybatter, whereas Walsh's Pub is practically next to Smithfield Square and a 10 minute walk from the pub.

    But I don't know the area. As I said, I just picked a random part of Dublin City Center.
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't know Stoneybatter that well as I don't live or work there. Anyway how many people do you reckon live on the DART line and work in Stoneybatter I would imagine the number is fairly small.

    People have to make decisions about where they live/work and the commuting distance of where they live/work. If it's not viable because public transport is not good enough or the traffic is too bad. I made the decision re: where I live as it's near the M50 and has good by Dublin standards bus links.
    I don't know Stoneybatter that well either - I just chose random examples. The simple fact is that, over the years I have worked with people who have ridiculous commutes. Likewise, I have turned down jobs offers because I would not do the commute (and I live in the city center!). By taking a simple, high-level look and saying that X suburb has a bus to somewhere in the city center doesn't mean that it is easy or quick and could actually result in an hour to an hour and a half commute each way, with a lot of walking (in Irish weather) or transferring from one mode to another and having to wait 15-30 minutes in between).

    Yes, people have to make decisions about where they live in relation to work. However, bear in mind that many people will change jobs/locations many times in their lives. But, as to the topic of this thread, due to the low density of Dublin city, huge parts of the city are not within a simple commute for many people, there is a ridiculous shortage of housing that is within a simple commute to much of the city and public transport is woeful/limited because of the low density and bad planning.


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    #51
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yes with design limits
    Stoneybatter isn't the CC, ask people who have lived in stoneybatter all their life's and they will tell you the same.

    It's like saying Fairview is the CC. Given your lack of knowledge and saying the Park SC would be the center of stoneybatter I doubt you're from Dublin at all.


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    #52
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    Apologies - assumed there would be a park and ride in Swords. So, as a commuter, one would be even more screwed trying to get to work on Cork Street.

    A park and ride facility would be used by people coming from outside an area so you wouldn't park up in Swords to get a bus to Cork Street you'd park somewhere such as Malahide Station.


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    #53
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    RasTa wrote: »
    Stoneybatter isn't the CC, ask people who have lived in stoneybatter all their life's and they will tell you the same.

    It's like saying Fairview is the CC. Given your lack of knowledge and saying the Park SC would be the center of stoneybatter I doubt you're from Dublin at all.

    So what do you define as the City Center? Is Stephens Green in the city center? Harcourt Street? Hueston Station? The IFSC? Just because it is not a main shopping district does not mean its not in the center.

    Geographically, is not everywhere inside the ellipse on the attached image in the City center (approx)?

    437155.png


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    #54
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    No
    markpb wrote: »
    You don't think someone can disagree with you without being paid to do so? That says a lot about your willingness to engage in debate which is funny on a discussion/debate website!

    Where did you get that crazy idea from??? I asked do they work for DCC because they share a similar attitude to those that are responsible for planning Dublin City. The "ah sure it's fine" attitude.


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    #55
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    @dotsman knock off the personal stuff and dial down, or better, lose the confrontational attitude.

    Do not respond to this on thread.


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    #56
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Yes with design limits
    D1 and D2


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    #57
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    No
    dotsman wrote: »
    So what do you define as the City Center? Is Stephens Green in the city center? Harcourt Street? Hueston Station? The IFSC? Just because it is not a main shopping district does not mean its not in the center.

    Geographically, is not everywhere inside the ellipse on the attached image in the City center (approx)?

    437155.png

    Yes but it's not core city centre where in Dublin's case there are shops, bars, restaurants and offices ie commercial activity rather than residential properties. Stoneybatter is predominantly a residential area rather a commercial area.
    Dolphins Barn also fits into definition of CC and it most definitely is not a predominantly commercial area.

    Although some areas can be both commercial and residential Ballsbridge/Landsdowne Road being an example. However Stoneybatter is not both a commercial and residential area.


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    #58
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Dr Crayfish wrote: »
    Also can we not get rid of the absolute eyesores that are Busarus and replace them with something more modern.

    I'd say you should learn a bit more your architectural heritage before you tear down buildings.


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    #59
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    No
    Effects wrote: »
    I'd say you should learn a bit more your architectural heritage before you tear down buildings.

    I don't care that a few idiots will tell me Busarus is some Art Deco masterpiece, it's disgusting, and absolutely filthy in the interior.


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    #60
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,531 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    No
    Dr Crayfish wrote: »
    I don't care that a few idiots will tell me Busarus is some Art Deco masterpiece, it's disgusting, and absolutely filthy in the interior.

    Interior?
    Very easy sort that out. When DSP move out next year that building has so much potential.


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    #61
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    No
    yabadabado wrote: »
    Interior?
    Very easy sort that out. When DSP move out next year that building has so much potential.

    It's a big old eye sore to me. I can't see any redeeming qualities in it.


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