Are there too many weather warnings?

sdanseo

Rodin wrote: »

Hospital departments closed.
Cities shut down.
Transport shut down.
Tourists stranded.
Schools closed.

Areas of the country got barely a sprinkling and this was obviously always going to be the case looking at the weather reports

A nationwide red-alert was a nonsense.

Yeah the duck and cover method worked well.

There are four or perhaps five counties which didn't warrant a red alert. When that much of the country is involved there would be a huge amount of travel to and from red areas.

All in all it made sense for the country to be red. It was only that way for 24hrs where Dublin was in red warning for three days straight.

MJohnston

There's a thread for all the warning level complaining, you know. So that the rest of us don't have to read it.

Rodin

sdanseo wrote: »

There are four or perhaps five counties which didn't warrant a red alert. When that much of the country is involved there would be a huge amount of travel to and from red areas.

All in all it made sense for the country to be red. It was only that way for 24hrs where Dublin was in red warning for three days straight.

I don't agree.
Shops in the northwest had their doors closed at 2pm as people were told to be indoors before 4pm.
Hospital patients chose not to travel for their appointments out of unfounded fear after the issuing of a red alert despite the roads being snow free.
They were travelling within counties which were fine.
All of this now needs rescheduled. As if hospital waiting lists aren't bad enough already.

Rodin

Far too many weather warnings.

Far too much crying wolf.

What will we do when the wolf is really at the door and we're weather-warning fatigued?

actaphobia

Rodin wrote: »

I don't agree.
Shops in the northwest had their doors closed at 2pm as people were told to be indoors before 4pm.
Hospital patients chose not to travel for their appointments out of unfounded fear after the issuing of a red alert despite the roads being snow free.
They were travelling within counties which were fine.
All of this now needs rescheduled. As if hospital waiting lists aren't bad enough already.

To my knowledge, nobody died during this event, which is a credit to Met Eireann, state agencies, and the government. There was no easy way of predicting how the storm would unfold - nature is unpredictable.

I'd much prefer that the govt be overcautious in these circumstances. Easy to say now all was fine - but clearly the govt based their decision on available data. If the worst outcome is that a few appointments have to be rescheduled then I would call this an unqualified success.

Minimal impact on retailers as purchases are displaced.

Rodin

Rodin wrote: »

I don't agree.
Shops in the northwest had their doors closed at 2pm as people were told to be indoors before 4pm.
Hospital patients chose not to travel for their appointments out of unfounded fear after the issuing of a red alert despite the roads being snow free.
They were travelling within counties which were fine.
All of this now needs rescheduled. As if hospital waiting lists aren't bad enough already.

Yes, the way warnings are issued here are a bit silly in the sense that they are strictly on county/province boundaries.
Roscommon is a good example where the south of the county warranted a red warning, while the north west only at most a yellow due to the light snow in that area.

The warnings should be by area as recommended by ME and not political boundaries.

_Dara_

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, the way warnings are issued here are a bit silly in the sense that they are strictly on county/province boundaries.
Roscommon is a good example where the south of the county warranted a red warning, while the north west only at most a yellow due to the light snow in that area.

The warnings should be by area as recommended by ME and not political boundaries.

Hindsight, people, hindsight. Roscommon isn’t a large county.

Rodin

actaphobia wrote: »

To my knowledge, nobody died during this event, which is a credit to Met Eireann, state agencies, and the government. There was no easy way of predicting how the storm would unfold - nature is unpredictable.

I'd much prefer that the govt be overcautious in these circumstances. Easy to say now all was fine - but clearly the govt based their decision on available data. If the worst outcome is that a few appointments have to be rescheduled then I would call this an unqualified success.

Minimal impact on retailers as purchases are displaced.

Nobody was suggesting the northwest would be hit.
And I came to this conclusion too with Met Eireann's own charts.
The government's decision to issue a countrywide red-alert was wrong.

_Dara_

_Dara_ wrote: »

Hindsight, people, hindsight. Roscommon isn’t a large county.

The weather maps clearly showed that the severe weather was not going to reach the north of the county, but only hit the south we never got the red warning when we should have had one because of this.

actaphobia

Rodin wrote: »

Nobody was suggesting the northwest would be hit.
And I came to this conclusion too with Met Eireann's own charts.
The government's decision to issue a countrywide red-alert was wrong.

Charts are forecasts. With an unpredictable event like this, the storm centre could have moved further north west. If you are uncertain about the path of the storm, then prudence is the best course of action.

But I guess your a bit cranky because your knees are sore from crawling to work.

gabeeg

Rodin, just so you're aware - the regulars of this forum have to read gripes about weather warnings after literally every weather event that affects this country.
To date they have been able to do precisely nothing about them.

It is intensely boring for all concerned.

Rodin

actaphobia wrote: »

Charts are forecasts. With an unpredictable event like this, the storm centre could have moved further north west. If you are uncertain about the path of the storm, then prudence is the best course of action.

But I guess your a bit cranky because your knees are sore from crawling to work.

Walking to work was quite easy as there was no snow on the ground.
Had to travel and take to the mountains to find some snow.

Rodin

gabeeg wrote: »

Rodin, just so you're aware - the regulars of this forum have to read gripes about weather warnings after literally every weather event that affects this country.
To date they have been able to do precisely nothing about them.

It is intensely boring for all concerned.

Hysteria is boring too.

Rodin

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Amazing the amount of people in this country who complain about everything.

If we had no warnings they'd be the first complaining.

Blanket country wide warning or no warning?

So it's all or nothing?

Christy42

Rodin wrote: »

Far too many weather warnings.

Far too much crying wolf.

What will we do when the wolf is really at the door and we're weather-warning fatigued?

How many have we had? I don't know if someone does something stupid because they are sick of weather warnings that is on them really. Don't blame previous weather warnings if you do something stupid when the bad weather hits your area. Use some common sense. Indeed as far as I can see the warning was valid for large parts of the country which is not a bad hit ratio.

Far too much trying to build a complete non issue into something they can give out about. Surely there is enough other things to moan about because this is really not a serious issue.

Bobeagleburger

Rodin wrote: »

Blanket country wide warning or no warning?

So it's all or nothing?

It was a mixed set of warnings until the Wed night, then a Red for everyone. They are working on forecasts. No offense, but it's pretty easy to understand.

Nobody was forcing you to stay in during it btw.

Rodin

RoboKlopp wrote: »

It was a mixed set of warnings until the Wed night, then a Red for everyone. They are working on forecasts. No offense, but it's pretty easy to understand.

Nobody was forcing you to stay in during it btw.

I didn't.

I agree the forecast was easy to understand - nothing of note was going to happen in the northwest. Was clear as day.
Absolutely no need for a red alert in the northwest. I'd debate whether a yellow one was even required.

Bobeagleburger

Rodin wrote: »

I didn't.

I agree the forecast was easy to understand - nothing of note was going to happen in the northwest. Was clear as day.

Ok, good for them

lolo62

I have no complaint about the warnings. Maybe I'd think differently if I lived in an area less affected but his was not a straight forward snow event. It was a complex weather system (hanging out here has me thinking I can sound like I know what I'm talking about :-) ) and well it's weather... hard to predict with precision. Better to er on the side of caution when it comes to people's lives being at risk.

What I do have a complaint about is people's reactions, or lack of, to the warnings. Hiding indoors for 3 days in suburban areas was definitely not necesary. I blame hype for this which actually has nothing to do with the warnings and more to do with the media.
The flip side of that then is things like yer woman swimming at seapoint and having to be rescued by pedestrians. Lunacy and ignorance. I still can't wrap my head around that one.

Rodin

This is the definition of a red weather warning.

Red
The weather is very dangerous. Exceptionally intense meteorological phenomena have been forecast. Major damage and accidents are likely, in many cases with threat to life and limb, over a wide area. Keep frequently informed about detailed expected meteorological conditions and risks. Follow orders and any advice given by your authorities under all circumstances, be prepared for extraordinary measures.

Barely a snowflake in the area covered by this alert - this is an unacceptable state of affairs.

bucketybuck

Christy42 wrote: »

How many have we had? I don't know if someone does something stupid because they are sick of weather warnings that is on them really. Don't blame previous weather warnings if you do something stupid when the bad weather hits your area. Use some common sense. Indeed as far as I can see the warning was valid for large parts of the country which is not a bad hit ratio.

Far too much trying to build a complete non issue into something they can give out about. Surely there is enough other things to moan about because this is really not a serious issue.

You really have it backwards, and can't handwave away people losing respect for the weather warnings as just some people with no common sense.

Why not say that people should use their common sense to judge conditions without the need for the maximum alert level? Would that not be more logical?

I for one do not think the integrity of weather warnings and peoples responses to them is a non-issue, I think its something that needs to be carefully looked at and handled.

Cork Boy 53

Rodin wrote: »

This is the definition of a red weather warning.

Red
The weather is very dangerous. Exceptionally intense meteorological phenomena have been forecast. Major damage and accidents are likely, in many cases with threat to life and limb, over a wide area. Keep frequently informed about detailed expected meteorological conditions and risks. Follow orders and any advice given by your authorities under all circumstances, be prepared for extraordinary measures.

Barely a snowflake in the area covered by this alert - this is an unacceptable state of affairs.

Why don`t you call Joe Duffy on his Liveline programme tomorrow and rant to him about it? Sure he will have a few words with ME/the Gov/ the NECC /fill in the blanks and have it all sorted for you in no time.

Christy42

bucketybuck wrote: »

You really have it backwards, and can't handwave away people losing respect for the weather warnings as just some people with no common sense.

Why not say that people should use their common sense to judge conditions without the need for the maximum alert level? Would that not be more logical?

I for one do not think the integrity of weather warnings and peoples responses to them is a non-issue, I think its something that needs to be carefully looked at and handled.

No because you would prefer to give a red warning needlessly than have people not properly warned about an incoming storm. Sometimes storms can come in quickly and people can get caught out without enough time to return home once they realise it is too bad. I am happy for them to err on the side of caution.

Yeah if someone, without serious reason, knows there is likely a storm incoming and does not take precautions then I am going to wonder where their head is screwed on. Likewise if I were in Donegal for this storm I would have made sure I had a few days food due to the warning. Then, as it became clear this was not a big issue there, I would have gone about my life keeping an eye on the weather forecasts to be careful. I would have in mind how quickly I could get home and react to a change in conditions (including dependents which is not an issue I currently have). Some business will lose out but businesses lost out in the rest of the country as well, it happens unfortunately.

This is, I believe, far superior to the forecasters telling everyone everything would be fine in Donegal and have people in serious trouble. Note that the forecast tended to be for the storm to largely miss that part of the country and this was part of the forecast. Combining the two would have told me that bad conditions were not expected but it had serious potential to get very bad very quickly. This is what it means, a red warning is not a guarantee. They don't only warn people in the path of a hurricane in the states, they look and see who might be affected if the hurricane changes path and warn them. Those people will likely not see the hurricane as it will likely follow its path but they will be warned - just like people in Donegal were warned.

Maybe more should be done to correctly educate people on how to react to warnings?

sdanseo

Rodin wrote: »

This is the definition of a red weather warning.

Red
The weather is very dangerous. Exceptionally intense meteorological phenomena have been forecast. Major damage and accidents are likely, in many cases with threat to life and limb, over a wide area. Keep frequently informed about detailed expected meteorological conditions and risks. Follow orders and any advice given by your authorities under all circumstances, be prepared for extraordinary measures.

Barely a snowflake in the area covered by this alert - this is an unacceptable state of affairs.

That is the UK definition of a red warning. The Irish definition (rightly or wrongly) is:

Met &#201 wrote: »

3. Snow/Ice Significant falls of snow likely to cause accumulations of 8 cm or greater below 250 m AMSL. Slippery paths and roads due to accumulation of ice on untreated surfaces; situation likely to worsen.
4. Low Temperatures Minima of minus 10C or lower expected. Maxima of minus 2C or lower expected.

Both of these things were forecast for the entire country, so the entire country got a red warning (additionally the concern was so much of the country was covered that this prevented substantial travel to or from red areas)

http://www.met.ie/nationalwarnings/warnings-explained.asp

Charles Babbage

Like the train signals, I think some warning should be in the form of prepare to stop. So rather than having the LUAS finishing at 2pm on the basis of a 4pm limit that didn't actually signify anything, the time limit should be stated in a more flexible way. So state that there will be a red warning and that people should not undertake long journeys but leave enough flexibility to set the cutoff at a reasonable time, with say 4 hours warning. Most people in most parts of the country could have done a days work on Wednesday without any real difficulty.

greasepalm

i think your wrong there as was in work freezing and roads dangerous also footpaths were bad and that breeze was very cold but not expecting the public to drive in those conditions.locked up 3.45 and glad of the warnings giving.

Corruptedmorals

Rodin wrote: »

I don't agree.
Shops in the northwest had their doors closed at 2pm as people were told to be indoors before 4pm.
Hospital patients chose not to travel for their appointments out of unfounded fear after the issuing of a red alert despite the roads being snow free.
They were travelling within counties which were fine.
All of this now needs rescheduled. As if hospital waiting lists aren't bad enough already.

And you know where they were all travelling from?

Speaking as someone who has to deal with a huge mess of rescheduling 2 days worth of outpatient appointments, and anyone who couldn't/can't travel last wednesday and this monday when there will not be any extra magical clinics to put them in to so they will have to be squeezed in everywhere by medical priority....everyone involved including the patients would much rather this than end up getting stranded when we will have them seen in a few weeks without the travel stress.

Depending on the hospital speciality, catchment areas go out the window. My hospital is in Dublin but sees patients from everywhere in Ireland. The children's hospitals are the same. Specialists from Dublin hospitals hold clinics in regional hospitals and people travel for hours for them. You can't act like everyone's a local to their hospital.

Rodin

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

And you know where they were all travelling from?

Speaking as someone who has to deal with a huge mess of rescheduling 2 days worth of outpatient appointments, and anyone who couldn't/can't travel last wednesday and this monday when there will not be any extra magical clinics to put them in to so they will have to be squeezed in everywhere by medical priority....everyone involved including the patients would much rather this than end up getting stranded when we will have them seen in a few weeks without the travel stress.

Depending on the hospital speciality, catchment areas go out the window. My hospital is in Dublin but sees patients from everywhere in Ireland. The children's hospitals are the same. Specialists from Dublin hospitals hold clinics in regional hospitals and people travel for hours for them. You can't act like everyone's a local to their hospital.

I know their exact addresses so yes I do know where they were travelling from.
Nothing like an informed opinion is there?

blanch152

Rodin wrote: »

I don't agree.
Shops in the northwest had their doors closed at 2pm as people were told to be indoors before 4pm.
Hospital patients chose not to travel for their appointments out of unfounded fear after the issuing of a red alert despite the roads being snow free.
They were travelling within counties which were fine.
All of this now needs rescheduled. As if hospital waiting lists aren't bad enough already.

There is a choice. We could be like the UK and have thousands of people sleeping in their cars stranded, or thousands more stranded by last-minute cancellations of trains and buses.

That resulted in people dying and going missing.

Or we could have the people and safety first approach in Ireland. Really depends on what you want. I am much happier with the Irish approach, but it you are arguing for a different approach, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences. So if you think it was ok for people themselves to decide to head up the Sally Gap in T-shirts, then we don't need weather warnings at all.

sumtings

What is the criteria of the right amount?