24" barrel pump.

Visconti

I am a current licience holder of Baikel 28" o/u and shoot clays maybe twice a year.
I saw a mossberg 88 pump with 23" barrel for sale in outdoor depot (can't link)
I am presuming its 23.7 " or whatever barrel as 24" is the shortest I have heard of.
I have used a 26" barrel before for skeet and had great fun and success I like getting on clays early.
My question is... is this gun a restricted licience ?
I like the look of it, I am a member of a clay club so I can have a licience.
Setting aside the fact its not practical, could I buy it or would I need special permission.
Thanks

Cass

This one?

Visconti wrote: »

I am presuming its 23.7 " or whatever barrel as 24" is the shortest I have heard of.

SI 21/2008, section 4(2)(b)(iii) says anything under 24" (which is 60.9 cm) is restricted meaning a restricted license is needed.

could I buy it or would I need special permission.

Section 12(6)(a) of the 2006 Act says it's illegal to own the gun altogether. As the 2006 act is primary legislation and the SI is secondary then the primary takes precedence and its illegal to own it.

So illegal to own, but not for the shop to possess. And people ask why we need restatement of the firearms laws in this country.

Perhaps it'd be an idea to inform the shop of this?

Visconti

I requested a call back but never got it. Maybe its a typo and its a 28" . But the photo is also of a short barrel. Will stick with the old russian so lol

clivej

AFAIK 24" is the shortest barrel a SG can have.

Grizzly 45

24 ins is the shortest as unrestricted.if it has a mag capacity greater then three shots it is restricted irrespective of barrel length.
So if it has a three-shot mag, its no problem to own on a normal unrestricted license.I have and use one all the time for clays and generally everything else and recently changed it to restricted.

Nekarsulm

Don't suppose an extended choke tube would be enough to get it over the 24?

Visconti

Dont think the 88 has chokes ?

Visconti

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

24 ins is the shortest as unrestricted.if it has a mag capacity greater then three shots it is restricted irrespective of barrel length.
So if it has a three-shot mag, its no problem to own on a normal unrestricted license.I have and use one all the time for clays and generally everything else and recently changed it to restricted.

Do you use a mossberg 88 24" on clays ? I thought it would be good for skeet...
Clay grounds over here still seem to frown on the semi auto and pump I think, even if you pick up your shells all the time.

Visconti

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

24 ins is the shortest as unrestricted.if it has a mag capacity greater then three shots it is restricted irrespective of barrel length.
So if it has a three-shot mag, its no problem to own on a normal unrestricted license.I have and use one all the time for clays and generally everything else and recently changed it to restricted.

Do you use a mossberg 88 24" on clays ? I thought it would be good for skeet...
Clay grounds over here still seem to frown on the semi auto and pump I think, even if you pick up your shells all the time.

Cass

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Don't suppose an extended choke tube would be enough to get it over the 24?

The only way that might work is if you were to have the choke permanently attached via welding, soldering, etc to the barrel. The law says the barrel must be 24" not 24" with an attachment. So in short i doubt it.

Nekarsulm

Basically then, if the shop ever plan to sell that 88/Maverick, they may get a regular 28" Accu-choke barrel for it, or a barrel from a scrapped 500.

Nekarsulm

Visconti wrote: »

Do you use a mossberg 88 24" on clays ? I thought it would be good for skeet...
Clay grounds over here still seem to frown on the semi auto and pump I think, even if you pick up your shells all the time.

I've used mine at clays a bit.
At least with the pump, you only have to pick up one ejected shell, as you can eject the second one into the bin/bucket.

Visconti

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Basically then, if the shop ever plan to sell that 88/Maverick, they may get a regular 28" Accu-choke barrel for it, or a barrel from a scrapped 500.

Well its up for sale so maybe someone can get it with a restricted licience ? I just looked at my gun licience and it doesn't say barrel length ? I thought the old one I had for a different gun had barrel length but I could be mistaken.
Will phone them again on it. I would like a 24" semi or pump if I could get one.

Grizzly 45

Visconti wrote: »

Dont think the 88 has chokes ?

Yes Mossberg does a choked barrel or look about for an old C-lect choke barrel.Looks ugly as Hell, but you can go from Full choke to Skeet choke in 3 seconds flat by twisting a collet. The 24in barrels usually are rifle sighted or just bead sight and are cylinder bored.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

The only way that might work is if you were to have the choke permanently attached via welding, soldering, etc to the barrel. The law says the barrel must be 24" not 24" with an attachment. So in short i doubt it.

Nope! It's acceptable so long as the "extension" is permanently affixed by any methods as you said.Seen it done here to a couple of SPAS12's to make them UK and IRL legal But as 24ins is MINIMUM, there is no need to hang on any bits in this case.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

............ But as 24ins is MINIMUM, there is no need to hang on any bits in this case.

With regard to the one in the advert? its 23", not 24" so not legal.

Cass

Visconti wrote: »

Well its up for sale so maybe someone can get it with a restricted licience ?

As its under 24" its illegal to own/possess. So no license will cover you.

I just looked at my gun licience and it doesn't say barrel length ?

No license has barrel length printed on it, and the FCA1 doesn't ask for it. However it's the applicants responsibility to know whether its legal or not.

Grizzly 45

Visconti wrote: »

Well its up for sale so maybe someone can get it with a restricted licience ? I just looked at my gun licience and it doesn't say barrel length ? I thought the old one I had for a different gun had barrel length but I could be mistaken.
Will phone them again on it. I would like a 24" semi or pump if I could get one.

I'll say this again.
If it is THREE shots ,it is an unrestricted firearm and you can apply or swop your O/U for it.
If it has MORE than three shots it's a RESTRICTED firearm, irrespective of barrel length.You then need an "extra good reason" to own it an are dealing with the chief super rather than the super.

However, you can get the gun dealer to plug the magazine to three shots and get it certified from them that it is sold as an unrestricted firearm.[All of a five-minute job too,which should be at no cost to you as well.]

Also I am not too sure does the firearms act of 06 that Cass posted take into account some antique firearms that are still around here and perfectly legally liscensed as restricted.Namely the 1897 Winchester RIC "riot guns" and the Winchester 1897 "Trench brooms".Both are 16/18 inch barrel guns of historical value,not to mind financial value,and come up once in awhile for sale... Be intresting to hear from anyone who has one,how are they liscensed?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

With regard to the one in the advert? its 23", not 24" so not legal.

Maybe that advert is BS? And somebody cant use a tape measure properly??:)
Could be as simple,and more likely as that kind of an explanation?:)

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'll say this again.
If it is THREE shots ,it is an unrestricted firearm and you can apply or swop your O/U for it.
If it has MORE than three shots it's a RESTRICTED firearm, irrespective of barrel length.

You keep saying this and specifically ignoring the barrel length issue which is more important than whether its three or more shots so i'll ask you directly to explain what relevance restricted or unrestricted has on a firearm with a barrel length of LESS THAN 24" which by the act i quoted above makes them illegal to own/possess.

Maybe that advert is BS? And somebody cant use a tape measure properly??

Perhaps so, but as it stands its illegal.

Grizzly 45

So then please explain the situation where the Winchester "RIC riot guns "with a 16inch barrel are legally licensable to own and posses.????????

And I think you will find I am not "ignoring " anything.I am simply pointing out the legal fact that a 24inch barrel is perfectly legal here, fact.END OF!!!
The OP is hung up with this point, and I am trying to explain that it is magazine capacity that decides primarily here what is restricted or unrestricted under our law.
And unless we see this gun in person,we can be arguing how many angels dance on a head of a pin.It sounds to me that it is a bullsht ad for a start,as 23 ins is a non-standard factory length for any shotgun barrel.

Mossberg makes them in lengths from 12ins[US NFA item, unless mounted on a AOW],18[US legal minimum length],20ins,24ins[deer barrel UK and Irish minimum],28ins, and a massive 36in goose barrel.
So I would suggest that the OP contacts this dealer and asks for clarification on the exact barrel length,to sort this out as being the easy solution to this???

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So then please explain the situation where the Winchester "RIC riot guns "with a 16inch barrel are legally licensable to own and posses.????????

Not an answer. That is a question.

However if you are asking my opinion as to why a supposedly illegal firearm can/is licensed by someone then i would ask you to explain:

• Why i've seen people with semi auto centrefires on unrestricted licenses
• Why people have bullpups with unrestricted licenses
• Why dealers are handing out/selling these firearms to people with the wrong licenses

AGS are a lost cause, and the dealers obviously don't care enough to actually chekc the details on a license. Couple this with the wrong information being asked on the FCA1 and you end up with guns that should not be licensed being licensed, people with the wrong types of licenses, and basically/legally unlicensed firearms currently being owned.

And I think you will find I am not "ignoring " anything.

You have told the op that barrel length is meaningless:

Grizz wrote:

............ irrespective of barrel length

I am simply pointing out the legal fact that a 24inch barrel is perfectly legal here, fact.END OF!!!

I know, i posted it in the second post above. No one is arguing this.

The OP is hung up with this point, and I am trying to explain that it is magazine capacity that decides primarily here what is restricted or unrestricted under our law.

Again, known facts, but magazine capacity or restricted/unrestricted status is secondary to whether it's legal in the first place.

And unless we see this gun in person,we can be arguing how many angels dance on a head of a pin.

Nope.

If it's 23" its illegal, if its 24" or more than its legal. A fairly black or white issue.

It sounds to me that it is a bullsht ad for a start,as 23 ins is a non-standard factory length for any shotgun barrel.

Perhaps.

So I would suggest that the OP contacts this dealer and asks for clarification on the exact barrel length,to sort this out as being the easy solution to this???

As i suggested at the start of the thread.

Nekarsulm

OP, IF your heart is set on this particular one, I have a C-Lect-Choke lying about somewhere, I took it off a Mossberg 600 I once owned.
You will need the gunsmith to silver solder it on first.
Will add about 1.25 inches.

Cass

Forget the pump and go for the semi auto. Holds three, more with restricted, like the pump but with less work and reduced recoil. Just my 2 cents.

Gorgeousgeorge

My mossberg 500 takes an accu choke. Friend of mine licenced a winchester sxp with a 22 inch barrel.

He had no problem licencing it. But as a rfd who shoots with us told him its illegal to have on an unrestricted licence and if he gets caught by a guard that knows his stuff he is in big trouble

Cass

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

He had no problem licencing it.............. its illegal to have on an unrestricted licence and if he gets caught by a guard that knows his stuff he is in big trouble

My point exactly. Problems here include:

• How did he buy an illegal firearm?
• Why did the RFD allow him to buy it?
• How did the RFd not know he couldn't sell it?
• The restricte/unrestricted status is meaningless when it's illegal.
• The FCA1 doesn't ask for barrel length
• The firearms act says the applicant is legally responsible for applying for the correct license which in this case is non. Restricted doesn't cover illegal.

So you have a failing of the licensee, the RFD, and AGS.

Cass

BTW this is the exact same issue as the rifle barrel length issue we've spoken about thousands of times. Except rifles have a 50cm or 19.89" limit for the barrel.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Not an answer. That is a question.

Considering they have been licensed here since the state's foundation,post-independence and civil wars, and would have survived EVERY known firearms act, trawl, haul and amendment and whatnot?So it cant be said this is a new phenomenon[legal short barrel shotguns] to AGS or the state that such things are in existence? OR maybe it is the simple and easier "blind eye" to an utterly minor problem by the PTB to make everyone's lives easier?

Cass wrote:

However, if you are asking my opinion as to why a supposedly illegal firearm can/is licensed by someone then I would ask you to explain:

• Why I've seen people with semi-auto centrefires on unrestricted licenses
• Why people have bullpups with unrestricted licenses
• Why dealers are handing out/selling these firearms to people with the wrong licenses

AGS are a lost cause,

That probably answers a whole bunch of your above questions..Part 2 of that answer is for a dealer is Cevat Emptor Lex[Let the buyer beware of the law.] Which you would only get away with in Ireland.:rolleyes: Nowhere else could you push the onus on the consumer.

Coupled with an almost archaic view on firearms technology that seems to be 30 years in the past on most ,and the average Gardas knowledge of guns being you put bullets in one end ,and they come out the other when you pull the trigger,and he/she being well qualified with that knowledge to be the fAO in the station....Are you surprised?

Do you remember the Benelli M3 or M4 12 in barrel import saga by a certain dealer ,now deceased in Athlone? Around 06/08,and well discussed here on boards ??Almost had that type of Benelli banned here because of that type of foolery too by all parties involved.

You have told the op that barrel length is meaningless:

In the context of his worry of his point.What is his FAO going to be likely to ask first.How long is the barrel?Or How many rounds does it take?24in guns are a pretty rare thing here anyway..

Gorgeousgeorge

Cass wrote: »

My point exactly. Problems here include:

• How did he buy an illegal firearm?
• Why did the RFD allow him to buy it?
• How did the RFd not know he couldn't sell it?
• The restricte/unrestricted status is meaningless when it's illegal.
• The FCA1 doesn't ask for barrel length
• The firearms act says the applicant is legally responsible for applying for the correct license which in this case is non. Restricted doesn't cover illegal.

So you have a failing of the licensee, the RFD, and AGS.

I think the answer to the above is that the rfd did not care and neither did the applicant. The rfd had an ah it will be grand attitude.

Very same as rfd's selling bx25 and bx15 ruger mags. Without the right licence they are illegal to have and illegal to sell to a person without am adequate licence

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Considering they have been licensed here since the state's foundation,post-independence and civil wars, and would have survived EVERY known firearms act, trawl, haul and amendment and whatnot?So it cant be said this is a new phenomenon[legal short barrel shotguns] to AGS or the state that such things are in existence?

Again they may be out there, but it's not legal. The 2006 alone makes them illegal. So when you couple the renewing of licenses where the applciant is not asked for the barrel length with the lack of enforcement by AGS you get this situation.

OR maybe it is the simple and easier "blind eye" to an utterly minor problem by the PTB to make everyone's lives easier?

The point being because people have not been caught or jailed does not make it legal.

That probably answers a whole bunch of your above questions..Part 2 of that answer is for a dealer is Cevat Emptor Lex[Let the buyer beware of the law.] Which you would only get away with in Ireland.:rolleyes: Nowhere else could you push the onus on the consumer.

The RFDs should be held responsible. Why bother with licensing if i can simply buy any gun i want without the dealer needing to check the license?

In the context of his worry of his point.What is his FAO going to be likely to ask first.How long is the barrel?Or How many rounds does it take?24in guns are a pretty rare thing here anyway..

As i've said and you said yuorself the restricted/unrestricted won't matter because if the gun is illegal at 23" then if the OP applies for it knowing this they have sent in a fraudulent application for an illegal gun. So while they might get a restricted or unrestricted license if stopped or checked by someone with an ounce of cop on they'll be in the sh*t.

Cass

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

. Without the right licence they are illegal to have

Correct

and illegal to sell to a person without am adequate licence

Not so sure.

The RFD might get a slap on the wrist or even, worse case scenario, lose his/her license if the buyer tells all, but the law is laid out in such a way as to make the applicant/licensee responsible for knowing what they can and cannot have.

Like deer callers. They are illegal to use, but not to sell.