Disappointing number of financials plan to come to Dublin post-Brexit

parc

Probably a good thing, at least in the short term?

I did wonder about how the cost of housing would sky rocket if even more high paying multinational corporations came to Dublin

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/disappointing-number-of-financials-plan-to-come-to-dublin-post-brexit-1.3327469

Atlantic Dawn

Dublin can't cope with the current population, adding another 20k workers would be a bad idea.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Dublin can't cope with the current population, adding another 20k workers would be a bad idea.

Unless the Govt stopped focusing entirely on Dublin and encouraged the workers/employees to live outside Dublin. Travelling from Athlone to Dublin, even with going into the center of the city, is still a shorter commute than many have to experience whilst working in London.

Dublin is saturated. It's time to encourage development for the rest of the country. 20k new employees living in a satellite town would totally revitalize the economy of the local area. But, nah, the whole focus is entirely on the main cities.

parc

Is the answer to just expand North Dublin? Lost of nice flat there, I'd imagine it would be easier to do it there rather than South (mountains) or West (already too expansive?).

Bob Harris

Stick them in Dublin where infrastructure is 20 years behind and don't bother breathing new life and jobs into regional cities and towns.

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unless the Govt stopped focusing entirely on Dublin and encouraged the workers/employees to live outside Dublin. Travelling from Athlone to Dublin, even with going into the center of the city, is still a shorter commute than many have to experience whilst working in London.

Dublin is saturated. It's time to encourage development for the rest of the country. 20k new employees living in a satellite town would totally revitalize the economy of the local area. But, nah, the whole focus is entirely on the main cities.

Building out is not the solution. We need to build up.

People want to live in cities so we need to make it possible. Making people commute for an hour to work is not a viable work life balance. High rise beside quality public transport, trains and segregated buses/trams, needs to be built in Dublin. Because if we don't do both then we are just creating more problems.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

Building out is not the solution. We need to build up.

People want to live in cities so we need to make it possible. Making people commute for an hour to work is not a viable work life balance. High rise beside quality public transport, trains and segregated buses/trams, needs to be built in Dublin. Because if we don't do both then we are just creating more problems.

Irish people generally dream of buying a house. Not an apartment. Therefore, you're going to find resistance to that kind of build up. I do agree with you that Dublin needs to heavily invest in the high-rises (and the services needed for those high-rises) that are common in modern cities.

However, I don't believe that the focus on Dublin is healthy for the country. Yes, Dublin should be encouraged to build upwards rather than building outwards. It's already an overly large city considering the actual population involved. But Dublin is not Ireland, and this focus on Dublin will drive people away from the countryside (lack of jobs, investment etc), and not simply towards Dublin but instead to other countries.

KellyXX

I'm in finance.
Our company, which is big already are even now on an expansion path to sweep up the business created by brexit.
They are estimating we will be doubling in size over a few years.
We are not the only ones.
It's not just about companys moving over, it's about the business moving over.
And then the headcount has to increase to deal with that.

lmimmfn

Whatever we do get will only be shell companies as per usual, knocking up the artificial GDP and making us pay more to the EU due to it.,Employees would be idiots to come here with such high taxes.

lmimmfn

lmimmfn wrote: »

Whatever we do get will only be shell companies as per usual, knocking up the artificial GDP and making us pay more to the EU due to it.,Employees would be idiots to come here with such high taxes.

Absolutely amazing that our votes count for the same.

humberklog

Put more emphasis on living outside the city, invest really heavily in a cracking train infrastructure, Bingo! Brits love their train commutes and living somewhere leafy.

The_Kew_Tour

I thought we were sorted once UK left EU?:pac:

or so we were told

Bob Harris

Bob Harris wrote: »

Stick them in Dublin where infrastructure is 20 years behind and don't bother breathing new life and jobs into regional cities and towns.

We have been through this previously.

A very good national spatial strategy was suggested near 20 years ago for pushing development into a SMALL number of regional cities to try to achieve this.

I think it was designed by planner / geographer profesional types and I remember thinking it was quite good.

The politicians then got a hold of it to implement it. It was not acceptable to them (aka their voters) because every bloody town in the country could not be promised a University/International airport/Intel etc. Hard decisions had to be made.

The plan was watered down to nothing i think. Everybody got a little so ultimately no one gets anything.

Gateways

Cork
Limerick—Shannon
Galway
Sligo
Letterkenny—Derry
Dundalk
Dublin
Tullamore—Athlone—Mullingar
Waterford

Hubs

Tralee and Killarney
Mallow
Ennis
Tuam
Castlebar and Ballina
Monaghan
Cavan
Kilkenny
Wexford

Soooooo here we are........ too late, nothing done... we are where we are now

Topgear on Dave

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Soooooo here we are........ too late, nothing done... we are where we are now

Because there's no accountability for poor decisions after they leave office (or during it).

Seems like our politicians just love to create problems for future governments to solve (or simply pass on to the next government, and so on). Anything that is done is more of a short-term publicity stunt. Instant gratification rather than any long-term benefits to the country.

Ulysses Gaze

No-one, bar some Irish perhaps, that has lived and made a life for themselves in London will want to live anywhere outside of Dublin. If they had to move here.

You are dreaming if you think they'll want to live in Galway, Cork or Limerick.

Del2005

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

We have been through this previously.

A very good national spatial strategy was suggested near 20 years ago for pushing development into a SMALL number of regional cities to try to achieve this.

I think it was designed by planner / geographer profesional types and I remember thinking it was quite good.

The politicians then got a hold of it to implement it. It was not acceptable to them (aka their voters) because every bloody town in the country could not be promised a University/International airport/Intel etc. Hard decisions had to be made.

The plan was watered down to nothing i think. Everybody got a little so ultimately no one gets anything.

Gateways

Cork
Limerick—Shannon
Galway
Sligo
Letterkenny—Derry
Dundalk
Dublin
Tullamore—Athlone—Mullingar
Waterford

Hubs

Tralee and Killarney
Mallow
Ennis
Tuam
Castlebar and Ballina
Monaghan
Cavan
Kilkenny
Wexford

Soooooo here we are........ too late, nothing done... we are where we are now

The spatial strategy would have worked if the decentralisation was matched to it. We had a plan to build up regional centres and shortly after a plan to move thousands of civil servants out of Dublin. It wouldn't have been too difficult to seed the regional centres with government departments but instead the parish pump won out, as usual.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Because there's no accountability for poor decisions after they leave office (or during it).

Accountability? Berties FF government was repeatedly re-elected.

The voters did not like the type of difficult decisions that would have to be taken. (push development and infrastructure into Cork / Galway / Limerick areas and tell Ballygobackwards get stuffed)

These planning decisions are solely the fault of the irish electorate.

Ulysses Gaze

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Accountability? Berties FF government was repeatedly re-elected.

The voters did not like the type of difficult decisions that would have to be taken. (push development and infrastructure into Cork / Galway / Limerick areas and tell Ballygobackwards get stuffed)

These planning decisions are solely the fault of the irish electorate.

Who think local and never national.

Fr_Dougal

You can’t just decide to ‘stick’ these companies in the likes of Athlone or other regional towns. These businesses are in competition for attracting talent. A lot of their employees like city living and all that goes with it, they’re not going to be impressed with the likes of Athlone or Carlow etc., and you wouldn’t blame them.

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

No-one, bar some Irish perhaps, that has lived and made a life for themselves in London will want to live anywhere outside of Dublin. If they had to move here.

You are dreaming if you think they'll want to live in Galway, Cork or Limerick.

That's interesting because most of the professionals I knew working in London, were saving money so that they could buy a house in a sleepy town/village in the countryside. After commuting or living in crappy apartments in the city, many of them with families wanted to live outside the cities.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Accountability? Berties FF government was repeatedly re-elected.

The voters did not like the type of difficult decisions that would have to be taken. (push development and infrastructure into Cork / Galway / Limerick areas and tell Ballygobackwards get stuffed)

These planning decisions are solely the fault of the irish electorate.

Fair enough.

Ulysses Gaze

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

You can’t just decide to ‘stick’ these companies in the likes of Athlone or other regional towns. These businesses are in competition for attracting talent. A lot of their employees like city living and all that goes with it, they’re not going to be impressed with the likes of Athlone or Carlow etc., and you wouldn’t blame them.

They are not going to be atttacted to Cork, Limerick or Galway either.

Cork is no bigger or attractive than Exeter, and very few people who work in the City of London would want to move to Exeter.

Del2005

humberklog wrote: »

Put more emphasis on living outside the city, invest really heavily in a cracking train infrastructure, Bingo! Brits love their train commutes and living somewhere leafy.

People don't want to live outside cities. Is there any country in the world where rural areas are experiencing population growth?

People use commuter trains if they have no other option. I'd guess that if you asked the commuters doing a 30 minute or more commute are they happy you'd get a large amount of No's.

Fr_Dougal

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

You can’t just decide to ‘stick’ these companies in the likes of Athlone or other regional towns. These businesses are in competition for attracting talent. A lot of their employees like city living and all that goes with it, they’re not going to be impressed with the likes of Athlone or Carlow etc., and you wouldn’t blame them.

I wasn't suggesting sticking the companies themselves in the countryside, but rather the employees. Those that want to live in the city, will continue to do so, facing the costs inherent in that. But there will be those with families and others who will prefer to live outside of the cities. You can easily see that in the numbers who commute daily to London or other major cities in the UK.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

The spatial strategy would have worked if the decentralisation was matched to it. We had a plan to build up regional centres and shortly after a plan to move thousands of civil servants out of Dublin. It wouldn't have been too difficult to seed the regional centres with government departments but instead the parish pump won out, as usual.

Decentralisation was a pie in the sky vote getter plan by McCreevy that he worked out on the back of a fag packet in the dail bar.

It had little to do with improving the actual functioning of the state and all to do with grabbing votes in local towns.


(Im not totally against moving parts of state organisations around the country but it needs to be very carefully done as part of a long long term strategy, not bloody smash & grab in the ministers department)

Aongus Von Bismarck

Highly skilled, highly educated, and highly remunerated finance professionals (such as myself) don't want to live in some parochial backwater like Cork, Limerick or Galway. The type of place where the cultural highlight of the year is a Macnas parade, or where a local is likely to recommend a fish and chip shop as a dining destination. It just isn't going to happen.

Even Dublin is a very tough sell. It's fine for low-end back office grunts and drones, but you're not going to attract much of the type of work that is so sought after by other more attractive destinations such as Paris and Amsterdam.

Ted Plain

Some things that would help, in my humble opinion:

- Make the docklands area into a skyscraper district. Planning decisions railroaded through.

- Invest heavily in a fully-integrated transport system. When you arrive in Heathrow or Frankfurt you have an array of high-quality transport options. In Dublin you have the bus. I would associate "bussing it" with going in to sign on the dole in Werburgh St., not with commuting to a fancy finance job. Nobody wants to take a bus.

- Litter. Dublin is in large parts rancidly dirty. Stretches of the docklands, on the way to many of these new glass office buildings, are especially bad and make for a terrible first impression. It needs to be seriously sorted out.

longshanks

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Highly skilled, highly educated, and highly remunerated finance professionals (such as myself) don't want to live in some parochial backwater like Cork, Limerick or Galway. The type of place where the cultural highlight of the year is a Macnas parade, or where a local is likely to recommend a fish and chip shop as a dining destination. It just isn't going to happen.

Even Dublin is a very tough sell. It's fine for low-end back office grunts and drones, but you're not going to attract much of the type of work that is so sought after by other more attractive destinations such as Paris and Amsterdam.

Try harder little man.

Capt'n Midnight

Del2005 wrote: »

Building out is not the solution. We need to build up.

People want to live in cities so we need to make it possible. Making people commute for an hour to work is not a viable work life balance. High rise beside quality public transport, trains and segregated buses/trams, needs to be built in Dublin. Because if we don't do both then we are just creating more problems.

NO !

we need to build down, start a subterranean civilisation, bomb proof and powered by geothermal energy, we can come out at night to feed on the daywalkers

snotboogie

Beyond Asset Management, Dublin doesn't have the infrastructure or connections to take any serious portions of London's financial business. London as a financial center is successful because of it's connectivity between North America, Europe and Asia. Dublin and Ireland have almost zero connections to Asia; Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tokyo, Singapore, Sydney and Beijing are all top 10 global financial centres, Ireland has zero physical infrastructure to link with these and with the exception of Sydney has essentially zero business connections with any of these cities. Frankfurt has all of the physical infrastructure and Germany have been building strong business connections out East, particularly in Mainland China. 
Ireland still has a 1970's worldview with regards to international trade, with the world starting in San Francisco and ending in Berlin and maybe some vague notions of burgeoning success in Japan. While we have outstanding links to the United States we are genuinely 50 years behind the likes of the UK and Germany when it comes to links with Asia. There was no way we could ever take on any significant portion of London's Financial Business. To believe that we could was utterly delusional.

RDM_83 again

longshanks wrote: »

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Highly skilled, highly educated, and highly remunerated finance professionals (such as myself) don't want to live in some parochial backwater like Cork, Limerick or Galway. The type of place where the cultural highlight of the year is a Macnas parade, or where a local is likely to recommend a fish and chip shop as a dining destination. It just isn't going to happen.

Even Dublin is a very tough sell. It's fine for low-end back office grunts and drones, but you're not going to attract much of the type of work that is so sought after by other more attractive destinations such as Paris and Amsterdam.

Try harder little man.

In this case at least I wouldn't be sure AvonB is actually trolling, it's sort of the truth,Dublin isn't big really and doesn't have much going on in comparison to a "world city", it's also got a pretty run down look and obvious petty criminality going on.
I don't mind it as a place but in the grand scheme of things it's a city of 1/1.5 million on a small island.
It would be easier to get people that aren't that senior too move.

In terms of the pushing these jobs outside of Dublin are people mad, there is a big difference between Oxford and Athlone and keep in mind wages in Oxford/M4 corridor are still damn good.

snotboogie

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

You can’t just decide to ‘stick’ these companies in the likes of Athlone or other regional towns. These businesses are in competition for attracting talent. A lot of their employees like city living and all that goes with it, they’re not going to be impressed with the likes of Athlone or Carlow etc., and you wouldn’t blame them.

They are not going to be atttacted to Cork, Limerick or Galway either.

Cork is no bigger or attractive than Exeter, and very few people who work in the City of London would want to move to Exeter.

The city itself is double the size of Exeter and is home to the European HQ of the largest tech multinational in the world and a number of major Pharma Companies. Anyway it's a moot point, Cork has zero designs on becoming any sort of financial centre but it is aggressively targeting the London maritime services, time will tell how successful they will be but the Horgan's Quay development is a very positive sign.

Permabear

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Arthur Daley

Good. This country is in no position to sustain short term property cost ramping based off shadow banking and global asset bubbles that are ready to pop somewhere by the end of the decade.

Paddy is still trying to recover from the last coronery given to him by the debt agencies of the 1%. A period of debt reduction and consolidation of the hard won gains is now the order of the day. If your economy is in desperate need of this business to survive, you need to go back to brass tacks and question how more indigenous and sustainable employment can be developed. Rather than the quick fix and the latest rush.

Ronaldinho

Permabear wrote: »

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Rates are 40% (up to 150k) and 45% thereafter in the UK so that line of thinking doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

On the Swiss thing, if replicated here it would be a nice FU to the middle income earners here that have been put to the pin of their collars over the last few years.

I get that it would be a nice selling point when trying to attract new jobs here, but morally I don't think it's right that you would prejudice Irish people who don't qualify.

bnt

Give me a fast internet connection and let me work from home. At the company for which I work, there have been some rumblings about moving some work to Limerick, and I would have no problem living there.

People can go where the work is, you don't have to have everything in Dublin because "that's where the people are".

Permabear

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Del2005

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

NO !

we need to build down, start a subterranean civilisation, bomb proof and powered by geothermal energy, we can come out at night to feed on the daywalkers

Down would be ideal from an energy point of view. But the problem is that you can't evacuate a multi storey underground building easily. Unfit people can walk down thousands of steps with ease they won't be able to walk up thousands of steps, not to mention the problem of people with physical disabilities.

rossie1977

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Highly skilled, highly educated, and highly remunerated finance professionals (such as myself) don't want to live in some parochial backwater like Cork, Limerick or Galway. The type of place where the cultural highlight of the year is a Macnas parade, or where a local is likely to recommend a fish and chip shop as a dining destination. It just isn't going to happen.

Even Dublin is a very tough sell. It's fine for low-end back office grunts and drones, but you're not going to attract much of the type of work that is so sought after by other more attractive destinations such as Paris and Amsterdam.

Amsterdam is not a hub of European business and finance though. Cities like Brussels, Frankfurt and even a small city like Luxembourg are. All are smaller than Dublin with Luxembourg smaller than Cork.

People will go where the money is.

KellyXX

The HR department where I work is actually renting apartments in Dublin in bulk and allowing the people who come over from abroad to live in them while they look for a place of their own. The last I heard it was a year they could stay before they must leave even if they havent foubnd a place.

King of Kings

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I thought we were sorted once UK left EU?:pac:

or so we were told

like those jobs we were promised if we voted lisbon (round 2)

Beasty

Permabear wrote: »

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Switzerland can "incentivise" inbounds. Ireland cannot under EU law. If you bring down the top rate for people coming into the country you have to do the same for those already here

And I am an immigrant in this country, content to pay that top rate. The general view is that 50%+ does start disincentivising people, but the Irish rate is close enough to that figure for me certainly. Most other EU countries have relatively high personal taxes, although the bigger issue here is the relatively low level of income at which it applies

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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And this is driven by sheer and utter greed.

They would still have a very comfortable life, comfortably able to live in the best areas of Dublin, have the best cars and gadgets, take multiple foreign holidays and live in a stable and safe country despite the taxes they pay.

It's not like they would be resigned to a below average life-style due to the high taxes they pay.

But a comfortable couple of million is not enough. It has to be 10s and 100s of million squirreled away.

Beasty

KellyXX wrote: »

The HR department where I work is actually renting apartments in Dublin in bulk and allowing the people who come over from abroad to live in them while they look for a place of their own. The last I heard it was a year they could stay before they must leave even if they havent foubnd a place.

In my view this is a bigger issue than personal taxation. The cost of living in Ireland continues to rise, largely on the back of the fact the country seems incapable of allowing the principles of supply and demand to redress the housing crisis

Add to that other poor infrastructure (including the lack of a decent public transport option to the main airport), and it's easy to see why some companies look here then head off somewhere else. I am sure Ireland would be higher up on the preferred location list for many companies if it could sort out the infrastructure

ChikiChiki

And this is a direct result of successive bad governments. We are losing a golden opportunity here. Ireland needs to be more proactive instead of reactive. Our politicians are utterly useless and many are only involved for self serving reasons.

Permabear

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Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

No-one, bar some Irish perhaps, that has lived and made a life for themselves in London will want to live anywhere outside of Dublin. If they had to move here.

You are dreaming if you think they'll want to live in Galway, Cork or Limerick.

That’s what people don’t realize.

Getting people to give up the West End, high class shopping, five international airports in easy reach and numerous Michelin starred restaurants to live in a town in the middle of nowhere? It just isn’t going to happen.

flas

bnt wrote: »

Give me a fast internet connection and let me work from home. At the company for which I work, there have been some rumblings about moving some work to Limerick, and I would have no problem living there.

People can go where the work is, you don't have to have everything in Dublin because "that's where the people are".

Wait until they get to limerick,see that from their same pay they can now afford an extra holiday a year and have more money in their pockets with bigger house or apartment for less they are currently paying and they will soon stop complaining! Im stuck in Dublin for at least thr next teo years with work until I can apply for a transfer and I cant wait to get out and be able to get a good mortage on a good house and not have to worry about 350,000 for a 3 bed semi in an identical estate to thousands of others around the city! I have been here since was 18, I'm 30 now and married, fantastic place for your 20's, when start settling down the downsides become glaring!

Permabear

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Grayson

Permabear wrote: »

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America has the highest inequality in any developed country. Unless you're wealthy it's a ****hole.

Beasty

Permabear wrote: »

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Ireland needs to invest in its infrastructure including health service and schools

Ultimately all tax is borne by individuals and all government spending is funded via tax. The biggest issue most governments face is their short-sightedness, resulting in them placing that burden more on future generations rather than expecting those benefiting from the investment actually paying for it. Government debt should be for capital investment and short term fluctuations. All current expenditure should be covered by taxation receipts. Corporate tax receipts are volatile meaning any modern society needs to tax individuals more directly rather than via reduced returns on their investments and pension funds

Pay levels were way too high in 2008, but unfortunately the lack of proper investment in the likes of housing means wages continue to rise too quickly, and risks another bubble. Again it's short termism driven by the political system in this country (and many other countries suffer in a similar manner)

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Exactly.

These people want to hoover up more and more wealth, paying as little tax as possible, and to hell with the rest of society.


I know Ireland will never be attractive to them, probably better off without in the long run, lest we turn into a society like the US where people working 2 and 3 jobs is not uncommon.

I agree the 40% at €32k is ridiculous, driven on by the astounding sense of entitlement among certain sections in Ireland (welfare, the public service, refusing to pay for water, etc). That extreme is a different argument for a different thread !