The slow death of forums *see OP for Admin warning and update 28/02/18*

hatrickpatrick

The cycle of these issues on Boards has always been, ideological moderation reaches a crescendo, users revolt, admins / mods agree to look in to it, everything calms down for a while, ideological moderation starts to creep back in, repeat.

I'd love to say I have faith in this time being different, but we've been here numerous times before in my experience of Boards, and every time, IMO, the steps which are taken serve only to evade doing what would easily solve most user complaints (allowing irreverent Irish people to be irreverent on an Irish forum, and allowing right wing opinion without micromanagement) - closing Feedback, neutering the cafe, etc.

I said it earlier in this thread, but it's pretty clear that those in charge have an idea or an opinion as to what Boards' culture should be like, and they refuse to allow the forum to blossom into anything that isn't what they want it to be. Because that clashes with what a huge number of users (and in my view, your average Irish person) would want it to be, these conflicts persist and the forum declines over time.

It's just my opinion obviously - I hope I'm wrong. I'd love it if things changed, but I doubt they will. Threads about controversial topics will continue to be locked for no clear, defined rule-breaking reasons but because "this is getting out of hand" (vague and meaningless phrase loosely translated to "we don't like the cultural viewpoint that is emerging here" or "we don't like that most posters advocate an ideology which we find personally unpalatable, or which the current societal Overton Window does not permit discussion of"), and forums which continually resist this (as the Cafe used to) will eventually be castrated in a similar manner.

And yet those of us who miss the old, lighthearted and un-curated Boards will continue to post here for the sake of nostalgia, while occasionally grumbling about how much this site has been pummelled into submission by aggressive culture-policing over the years, because it's still Boards and it's still the only large Irish forum which doesn't serve just one subject (like politics.ie, foot.ie etc).

uck51js9zml2yt

One of the things that's puzzled me over the last 7 years and 13k posts ( but whose counting?) is moderation and its lack of transparency.
Let me clarify..
What are the criteria for someone becoming a mod?
How are people made mods? Do they supply Beasty with a supply of tubes for his bike or perhaps people think his name is Lance and supply other stuff;)

Having modded elsewhere, it's a thankless task and underappreciated on boards.
Overall, I've not seen the problems with moderation others speak about.
Occasionally mods get it wrong but they're human as well( or so it's rumoured).
If some.people learnt how to behave we'd have a better forum. Quiet frankly,I've given up on a couple of the forums I post in due to the cra.p that gets posted on them mainly by people who've no interest in the subject.

droidman123

Adelaide Colossal Bakery wrote: »

One of the things that's puzzled me over the last 7 years and 13k posts ( but whose counting?) is moderation and its lack of transparency.
Let me clarify..
What are the criteria for someone becoming a mod?
How are people made mods? Do they supply Beasty with a supply of tubes for his bike or perhaps people think his name is Lance and supply other stuff;)

Having modded elsewhere, it's a thankless task and underappreciated on boards.
Overall, I've not seen the problems with moderation others speak about.
Occasionally mods get it wrong but they're human as well( or so it's rumoured).
If some.people learnt how to behave we'd have a better forum. Quiet frankly,I've given up on a couple of the forums I post in due to the cra.p that gets posted on them mainly by people who've no interest in the subject.

Why should it be "appreciated"? Nobody forces them to work for a profit making company for no pay.the reason they do it? Only they know that,but i have my own reasoning on it.

ArtSmart

Can't see Boards.ie fading away myself. Too much data across too many areas.
Some folk seem to think that After Hours is Boards. It's not, AH is just one part of it.

Whatever about declining posts, there's a wealth of information specific to Irish issues on the site - so when I do a google search on a topic and add Boards.ie, there's almost always some information there.

I, like others whose lives are getting busy in other areas, and therefore post less, still peek into the Boards data, at least twice a month.

K.Flyer

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know this is a post from much earlier, but I think certain forums do need mods on the forum who have an interest in the subject matter.
Take the Electrical, Plumbing & Heating, Shooting etc. as examples, these are subjects with particular technical and legal aspects to them and IMO require mods who would be familiar with these aspects and not just someone to monitor petty arguments or trolling.

BBDBB

droidman123 wrote: »

Why should it be "appreciated"? Nobody forces them to work for a profit making company for no pay.the reason they do it? Only they know that,but i have my own reasoning on it.

Because
1) without them, any forum would be a mess to view - eg multiple threads being started on a topical news story, the mod does the janitorial job of merging them.
2) they also answer a host of questions and try to help those that contact them with advice about how to post stuff
3) they have to do the difficult job of intervening when a conversation starts to deteriorate into petty squabbles and full blown arguments. Thats much more complicated than you would think as they have to judge when to intervene and who to identify as the culprit(s) then decide on a fair sanction thats also consistent with the forums history

I bet I can guess why you think they do it and you'd probably be incorrect in most cases

Greyfox

antodeco wrote: »

I'm now in my 18th year on boards! Just cause people don't post, doesn't mean the site isint being used! I browse 10x times more than I post.

I'm on boards nearly every day for almost 12 years and I've only 880 posts which is just under 1.5 posts a week. I'm just that lazy

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

You've deduced a lot in your time here. All two months of it.

Maybe it’s just me but I don’t necessarily see someone as new to boards just because their username is a couple of months old.

And if they were a new poster, doesn’t telling them that their opinion means diddly squat because they are new give an impression that new posters are not welcome?

Tell me how

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Maybe it’s just me but I don’t necessarily see someone as new to boards just because their username is a couple of months old.

And if they were a new poster, doesn’t telling them that their opinion means diddly squat because they are new give an impression that new posters are not welcome?

Did you read what they posted?
Is it likely that as a new poster they joined, posted x amount of times in 2 months and were able to deduce "what boards had become"? Over what period?

Or is it more likely that they were a re-reg and in such case I wonder, if it's so bad, why come back?

No platform wants to lose numbers but I can't understand why people stay somewhere when they seem to dislike everything. But hey, that's just an opinion.

GreeBo

This thread is turning into a perfect example of whats wrong.

It starts off all normal and civil, people are free to express differences of opinion and indeed argue with each other in a civil manner.

Then out of no where it gets all edgy and personal with people taking offence and responding in kind until its a cluster**** and mods have to step in.

I dont know how you can fix boards when the problem stems from idiots posting.

/edit
Thanks to judicious use of my ignore list lately I've improved both my experience and my own posting.

Reati

GreeBo wrote: »

This thread is turning into a perfect example of whats wrong.

It starts off all normal and civil, people are free to express differences of opinion and indeed argue with each other in a civil manner.

Then out of no where it gets all edgy and personal with people taking offence and responding in kind until its a cluster**** and mods have to step in.

I dont know how you can fix boards when the problem stems from idiots posting.

Like some cleverness Capcha thing you need to complete to unlock the reply button?

GreeBo

Reati wrote: »

Like some cleverness Capcha thing you need to complete to unlock the reply button?

I don't even think the captcha has to be that clever:

Answer the following question:

Are you being a dick by posting this?

o Yes
o No

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Did you read what they posted?
Is it likely that as a new poster they joined, posted x amount of times in 2 months and were able to deduce "what boards had become"? Over what period?

Or is it more likely that they were a re-reg and in such case I wonder, if it's so bad, why come back?

No platform wants to lose numbers but I can't understand why people stay somewhere when they seem to dislike everything. But hey, that's just an opinion.

I get ya but is it possible that posters re-reg for whatever reason and then distance themselves from certain forums, post a lot less, etc?

Boards is pretty addictive

GreeBo

It would probably be too difficult to implement on boards but a daily posting limit per user might improve things

If you can only post 10 times a day, maybe the standard of your posts increases? And if not then at least you can only inflict 10 crappy posts on the rest of us.

Also, infractions & bans could reduce your daily allowance.

Two things, as a not hugely active poster but one who definitely sees value in an irish-based popular general discussion board

1: The respectful fetish around re-reg posters and facilitation of same. Dunno why anyone would be allowed to do this or expect it as a norm on a discussion forum. Like, what is the point of the 'close my account' feature?

2: I dunno what the figures are, but I use my phone pretty much exclusively. That means that I get a list of threads from everywhere without much underlining of what subboard applies- it doesn't support a 'many fora, many charters, many different versions of what is acceptable'. There really does need to be a slim, covers-all-bases charter rather than the vague reliance on real-time moderator judgement underpinned by twenty different charters.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

It would probably be too difficult to implement on boards but a daily posting limit per user might improve things

If you can only post 10 times a day, maybe the standard of your posts increases? And if not then at least you can only inflict 10 crappy posts on the rest of us.

Also, infractions & bans could reduce your daily allowance.

Ummmm, you haven’t played a game of werewolf on here, have you? Hehe

Beasty

Deleted User wrote: »

Like, what is the point of the 'close my account' feature?

My understanding is it came about because of data protection laws. Similarly we have no way of preventing posters discarding their old accounts and starting new ones. I appreciate that can get very frustrating when posters keep popping up apparently under different guises. The one rule we can, and do enforce, is that posters cannot post via more than one account at the same time. Equally they cannot abandon one account, start a new one, then go back to the old one

And yes we do see some people starting new accounts every few days, with no poor "history" to hide or discard. Why they do it is anyone's guess. We have others that may "refresh" every year or two. They are less of an issue as most topics discussed are reasonably current and there is less chance of them causing any confusion.

My view is anyone doing this may well feel "enfranchised" to provide feedback based on their full history. However I do think those who have perhaps shown a bit more of a stable long-term history on the site are worth listening to more than those throwing away accounts like confetti

.......

This post has been deleted.

Beasty

Why? Because I value it more. Others may have a different view, but if you throw away your history like that why should you get any credit for it?

.......

This post has been deleted.

.......

....... wrote: »

Do you mean that someones Feedback is less valuable or their posts are less valuable? If its the latter I think that that is a disturbing view from a moderator.

I dont agree with either tbh.

What "credit" do you get for history? You could have posted years of the most enormous amount of rubbish but because the account has a certain start date you think that makes the posters opinion more valuable?

Not in my opinion. I value a post on its content, not on how long the poster has been posting.

You're literally asking the value of a good reputation

Beasty

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In my mind it will have less weighting. Valid points are valid points wherever they come from, but when we are into subjective/judgemental areas I will place more value on someone who, all other things being equal, has contributed more to the community - that's typically posters who have been around longer

.......

This post has been deleted.

Tell me how

Beasty wrote:

In my mind it will have less weighting. Valid points are valid points wherever they come from, but when we are into subjective/judgemental areas I will place more value on someone who, all other things being equal, has contributed more to the community - that's typically posters who have been around longer

That's generally the same in all society. It's why we value experience and seek references before hiring someone.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Pintman Paddy Losty

GreeBo wrote: »

It would probably be too difficult to implement on boards but a daily posting limit per user might improve things

If you can only post 10 times a day, maybe the standard of your posts increases? And if not then at least you can only inflict 10 crappy posts on the rest of us.

Also, infractions & bans could reduce your daily allowance.

What an utterly silly suggestion.

The key to solving the ever decreasing number of posts and posters is to restrict the amount people can post each day by an arbitrary amount.

Presumably you're taking the pi55?

GreeBo

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

What an utterly silly suggestion.

The key to solving the ever decreasing number of posts and posters is to restrict the amount people can post each day by an arbitrary amount.

Presumably you're taking the pi55?

Thanks for the constructive response.

10 was indeed an arbitrary number I plucked out of thin air, my assumption would be that should the feature be implemented or even investigated, some research would be carried out to see what an appropriate number would be.

In any case, I dont see how restricting the number of posts would impact the number of posters. New people might well be more likely to post if they felt it wasnt going to be drowned out by regulars.

I wonder what the real 2017 post count is if you were to remove the very chatty threads from AH and indeed the RPG threads.
Maybe the twitter feed type threads are hiding an even bigger problem?
Maybe all the owners want is post count, irrespective of post quality?

2011

K.Flyer wrote: »

I know this is a post from much earlier, but I think certain forums do need mods on the forum who have an interest in the subject matter.
Take the Electrical, Plumbing & Heating, Shooting etc. as examples, these are subjects with particular technical and legal aspects to them and IMO require mods who would be familiar with these aspects and not just someone to monitor petty arguments or trolling.

I agree completely. However there are different types of “interest in the subject”. As an electrical engineer I have an interest in moderating the electrical forum, however there is nothing I can post that could benefit me financially. I am not commercially aligned with any manufacturer and I don’t sell any electrical services. Other posters have a different type of “interest” as they have a commercial angle to their posts and use forums to promote their business and / or product and also use it to undermine their competition. I see this on the home security forum a lot. Quite a few posts are not impartial, instead they are “infomercials”. I think that posters with a commercial interest should declare their interest.

ohnonotgmail

2011 wrote: »

I agree completely. However there are different types of “interest in the subject”. As an electrical engineer I have an interest in moderating the electrical forum, however there is nothing I can post that could benefit me financially. I am not commercially aligned with any manufacturer and I don’t sell any electrical services. Other posters have a different type of “interest” as they have a commercial angle to their posts and use forums to promote their business and / or product and also use it to undermine their competition. I see this on the home security forum a lot. Quite a few posts are not impartial, instead they are “infomercials”. I think that posters with a commercial interest should declare their interest.

If you see somebody posting as a shill just report the post.

2011

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If you see somebody posting as a shill just report the post.

Absolutely, but where or how do you draw the line between good information and an infomercial? Frequently pushing a product is camouflaged with lots of useful information.

Wouldn’t it be better to require that posters that are commercially aligned with a product or service make full disclosure in the same post that they recommend that product or service?

BBDBB

With my patented Shill Recognizer device of course


Are you tired of shills presenting their products as useful consumer advice?
Fed up of getting help only to find out afterwards that the helper has a vested interest?

You need the BBDBB Shillifier 3000

Its easy, just plug it in, point it at the screen and wait for the indicator to identify the shill for you. It has three settings, Tall Story, Complete ****e and SHILL!!!!

only €34.99

Buy today and get a BBDBB Trollothonirator absolutely free!!!

Boom_Bap

BBDBB wrote: »

With my patented Shill Recognizer device of course


Are you tired of shills presenting their products as useful consumer advice?
Fed up of getting help only to find out afterwards that the helper has a vested interest?

You need the BBDBB Shillifier 3000

Its easy, just plug it in, point it at the screen and wait for the indicator to identify the shill for you. It has three settings, Tall Story, Complete ****e and SHILL!!!!

only €34.99

Buy today and get a BBDBB Trollothonirator absolutely free!!!

And where can I get this?

And how much does it cost?

2011

Very good

Beasty

Boom_Bap wrote: »

And how much does it cost?

Did you not read the post

Just over 600 SHILLings....

Fr_Dougal

BBDBB wrote: »

With my patented Shill Recognizer device of course


Are you tired of shills presenting their products as useful consumer advice?
Fed up of getting help only to find out afterwards that the helper has a vested interest?

You need the BBDBB Shillifier 3000

Its easy, just plug it in, point it at the screen and wait for the indicator to identify the shill for you. It has three settings, Tall Story, Complete ****e and SHILL!!!!

only €34.99

Buy today and get a BBDBB Trollothonirator absolutely free!!!

Congratulations, you’ve just qualified for a Sponsored Subforum over on Bargain Alerts.

uck51js9zml2yt

Beasty wrote: »

Did you not read the post

Just over 600 SHILLings....

I had to read the post again to see where i missed that:D

KoolKid

2011 wrote: »

I agree completely. However there are different types of “interest in the subject”. As an electrical engineer I have an interest in moderating the electrical forum, however there is nothing I can post that could benefit me financially. I am not commercially aligned with any manufacturer and I don’t sell any electrical services. Other posters have a different type of “interest” as they have a commercial angle to their posts and use forums to promote their business and / or product and also use it to undermine their competition. I see this on the home security forum a lot. Quite a few posts are not impartial, instead they are “infomercials”. I think that posters with a commercial interest should declare their interest.

In my view this sort of presumption on moderation is a good example of how over moderation can affect good discussion.
There are many good installers on that forum with many years experience in the industry. We offer advice, recommendations and help based that experience. Regularly experienced installers recommendations are dismissed with warnings how some are "commercially aligned". Yet no suggestion of, who these accusations are referring to or aimed at, is made.Many, including myself, have stated on thread that we have no commercial agreements with any manufacturers, but still the veil references are constantly made.
I now find much more questions being asked of me via PM from users who say they don't want to get bogged down in their threads which, quote, get too confusing.

CruelCoin

KoolKid wrote: »

In my view this sort of presumption on moderation is a good example of how over moderation can affect good discussion.
There are many good installers on that forum with many years experience in the industry. We offer advice, recommendations and help based that experience. Regularly experienced installers recommendations are dismissed with warnings how some are "commercially aligned". Yet no suggestion of, who these accusations are referring to or aimed at, is made.Many, including myself, have stated on thread that we have no commercial agreements with any manufacturers, but still the veil references are constantly made.
I now find much more questions being asked of me via PM from users who say they don't want to get bogged down in their threads which, quote, get too confusing.

Similar happen all the time in the Work & Jobs, and Accomodation & Property forums.

"Can't give legal advice" etc.
It ruins the flow of conversation.
If we cannot give advice, then why have the forum? Is it there purely as a "you poor thing" or "i feel you man" fountain?

It's abusive moderation to shut down answers in a question led forum in this way.

Beasty

CruelCoin wrote: »

It's abusive moderation to shut down answers in a question led forum in this way.

You cannot blame the moderators when they are simply implementing policy dictated by the site owners

the_pen_turner

I think the legal discussion problem is cause by only having AH as a catch all. AH is light hearted and not really for serious issues. a general forum section would help for these moral discussion threads. you cant give legal advice in LD so its really only the moral side your discussing. leave LD for the legal theory

Suckit

This forum is getting so quiet that people often have no choice but to go to other forums for some reading/conversations.

Probably been mentioned but you can see many conversations that were not allowed here, continuing over on reddit. The latest one being the social media sub.
I guess once people start moving over it will be very hard to try an bring them back.

Allowing private subforums/topics would probably help.

Beasty

Suckit wrote: »

Allowing private subforums/topics would probably help.

They are already there. One thing we are missing though is an index listing them and their purpose as well as who to contact for access

silverharp

Is it me or does the format of Reddit do your head in? I just find it a visual mess compared to the boards or similar format.

GreeBo

silverharp wrote: »

Is it me or does the format of Reddit do your head in? I just find it a visual mess compared to the boards or similar format.

I find that trying to read an old "thread" is impossible there tbh.
Maybe I'm just old.:o

Beasty

Just a reminder, we're planning on closing this up tomorrow (probably some time in the afternoon), so if anyone has anything new they want to mention please do so soon, to allow any further relevant commentary.

Thanks

Tell me how

Beasty wrote:

You cannot blame the moderators when they are simply implementing policy dictated by the site owners

Beasty, is it clear how the site owners see Boards functioning?

Do they have a vision, strategy or objective for the site? Could this be shared with users or a link added if it already exists?

KoolKid

The lack of continuity is a clear put off. Especially for casual users. They are not going to read every charter, not to mention the constantly changing ones.

Beasty

Tell me how wrote: »

Beasty, is it clear how the site owners see Boards functioning?

Do they have a vision, strategy or objective for the site? Could this be shared with users or a link added if it already exists?

TBH, I would imagine there's a strategy, given Sean's appointment What is the medium to long term purpose/vision? - I don't know. I would guess trying to have a thriving and safe environment for interaction and community building. I say "safe" because that's where legal restrictions, particularly under Irish law, start kicking in.

I know they are still trying to sort out the responsive site, as that seems to be where development time is taken up. If they can get that working properly we may see the site development issues I've tried to highlight addressed.

I personally think more regulation of Social media platforms is inevitable in some form or other (possibly at EU or even global levels), and Boards may already have an operating model that is more conducive to such regulation than some of the "mainstream" players

Maybe Sean or someone from the office can better articulate what the vision/plan/hope is

Boards.ie: Mark

I think some insight into plans and hopes can be gleamed from the AMA that Sean did and more specifically this response.

CruelCoin

Beasty wrote: »

You cannot blame the moderators when they are simply implementing policy dictated by the site owners

Where the blame lies is irrelevant. Charter rules like that are abusive and kill threads.

Another example:

Some time ago, during the Greece bailout Mk.UpteenMillion, there was a mega thread in the Politics Cafe.
A member posted regular updates in a certain format that really drove the conversation and led to the thread growing by 8+ pages a day and was much appreciated by all.
A poster on one side of the debate appealed that to a moderator, who shut the helpful poster down. When the helpful guy continued, he was banned.

What followed though, really took the biscuit. When we appealed in a separate thread en masse for this poster to be reinstated and to be allowed to continue to post these updates, a boards admin/employee waded in, insulted everyone by calling us all children, etc.

The result was a dramatic decrease in the activity in the thread, and others in that forum. Brilliant result from the userbase just wanting a valued thread driver to continue, aye?

The updates were in a format akin to a news bulletin, directly pulled from a news source (BBC, Financial Times, Etc). Offensive to literally nobody.

It was just the charter that killed things. I guess i'm saying these charters serve to stifle threads and thus directly relate to falling visitor numbers. A bit of objectivity in that instance wouldn't have gone astray.