John Lenihan-Irelands Unsung World Champion

pconn062

pconn062 wrote: »

Agree with most of that, I was just curious when someone casually throws in top 10 at National champs and sub 18 5k in the same post it got me thinking. When I think National champs I automatically think senior, cross country, track, etc.

I guess horses for courses, if someone asked me who was Ireland's greatest ever runner I'd say John Lenihan, I'd be far more interested in, say, Finlay Wild's wins on Ben Nevis or Jasmin Paris and Billy Bland's achievements in the Lake District than, say, Mo Farah on track.

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I guess horses for courses, if someone asked me who was Ireland's greatest ever runner I'd say John Lenihan, I'd be far more interested in, say, Finlay Wild's wins on Ben Nevis or Jasmin Paris and Billy Bland's achievements in the Lake District than, say, Mo Farah on track.

Fair enough you might be more interested in one area over another but do you honestly think John Lenihan is higher in the pantheon of Irish greats than Sonia O’Sullivan and Eamon Coghlan?

Jakey Rolling

Chivito550 wrote: »

Fair enough you might be more interested in one area over another but do you honestly think John Lenihan is higher in the pantheon of Irish greats than Sonia O’Sullivan and Eamon Coghlan?

A bit OT, but I'd put him right up there in the top 10.

World mountain running Champion obviously, but his 63:15 for half-marathon on the road. How many Irish athletes have bettered that time?

Djoucer

Maybe not higher but can certainly stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

He was an incredible runner. Turned down a pro contract. His record on Carrauntoohil still stands. World champion.

Hard to compare against efforts on the track/road but Lenihan was the real deal.

Con Houlihan wrote this about him:

"And yet he is a world champion in one of the most demanding sports known to man. John Lenihan, who of all the unsung heroes is just about the most unsung. He is a star with the same qualities as Ronnie Delany, Eamon Coughlan, Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche. And yet he is hardly known outside Kerry and not too well within it."

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

Fair enough you might be more interested in one area over another but do you honestly think John Lenihan is higher in the pantheon of Irish greats than Sonia O’Sullivan and Eamon Coghlan?

I just done a bit of research there although I'm not sure it's as big of a deal as mountain running is a sport of its own and the comparison to track is apples to oranges imo but it does illustrate that World Mountain running championships may not be as weak as you think.

The year before John Lenihan won it, a guy called Severino Bernardini won it, a guy who would subsequently go on to run 2:10.15 to finish second in the World Marathon Cup at a time when that was a truly world class performance. The Guy who won it the year after Lenihan was called Martin Jones, He would go on to finish 4th in the 10,000m at the Commonwealth Games. Kenny Stuart was a 2:11 guy in the 80's, Renato Gotti was a 13:32 5000 guy and never finished better than bronze. In fact, most of these guys were also top top XC runners who represented their countries at World cross as well. These guys were world class athletes even outside of mountain running.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

I just done a bit of research there although I'm not sure it's as big of a deal as mountain running is a sport of its own and the comparison to track is apples to oranges imo but it does illustrate that World Mountain running championships may not be as weak as you think.

The year before John Lenihan won it, a guy called Severino Bernardini won it, a guy who would subsequently go on to run 2:10.15 to finish second in the World Marathon Cup at a time when that was a truly world class performance. The Guy who won it the year after Lenihan was called Martin Jones, He would go on to finish 4th in the 10,000m at the Commonwealth Games. Kenny Stuart was a 2:11 guy in the 80's, Renato Gotti was a 13:32 5000 guy and never finished better than bronze. In fact, most of these guys were also top top XC runners who represented their countries at World cross as well. These guys were world class athletes even outside of mountain running.

Didn’t John Lenihan turn to road running and ultimately mountain running after he failed to be selected for the Irish Olympic team for the 5000m in 1984?

No doubting his credentials, but to have him alongside Sonia O’Sullivan is a bit much in fairness.

El Caballo

El Caballo wrote: »

The year before John Lenihan won it, a guy called Severino Bernardini won it, a guy who would subsequently go on to run 2:10.15 to finish second in the World Marathon Cup at a time when that was a truly world class performance. The Guy who won it the year after Lenihan was called Martin Jones, He would go on to finish 4th in the 10,000m at the Commonwealth Games. Kenny Stuart was a 2:11 guy in the 80's, Renato Gotti was a 13:32 5000 guy and never finished better than bronze. In fact, most of these guys were also top top XC runners who represented their countries at World cross as well. These guys were world class athletes even outside of mountain running.

Kenny Stuart is widely considered the greatest ever male fell racer in the UK (or at least at the straight up and down efforts, Holmes won more Championships, Bland set records for distance races that no one can approach 30 years later, Naylor is pretty much the Godfather of the sport there). His records on Ben Nevis and Snowdon still stand since the mid 80s...and Lenihan beat him on Snowdon. When Stuart broke the Snowdon record he actually trailed Robin Bryson from Belfast who still has the fastest ascent time.

jamule

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Kenny Stuart is widely considered the greatest ever male fell racer in the UK (or at least at the straight up and down efforts, Holmes won more Championships, Bland set records for distance races that no one can approach 30 years later, Naylor is pretty much the Godfather of the sport there). His records on Ben Nevis and Snowdon still stand since the mid 80s...and Lenihan beat him on Snowdon. When Stuart broke the Snowdon record he actually trailed Robin Bryson from Belfast who still has the fastest ascent time.

We need a John Lenihan appreciation thread. He also beat Stuart in the first warriors run in '85, that was the first time i had heard of him ((I had no idea until recent years about Stuart but knew all about Lenihan (having Maurice Mullins as a teacher helped))

TFBubendorfer

<mod>I've split this off the goals thread as it's OT there but definitely merits a thread of its own</mod>

TFBubendorfer

By pure luck I managed to see John Lenihan in his last ever race when he ran the Dingle Adventure Race as part of a relay, and obviously he did the mountain running part.

The way he just floated down the mountain was unreal, utterly effortless at seemingly twice the speed of everyone else. Also, he had done the climb so fast that he arrived at the top before the official who was supposed to check the splits!

All this after his hip replacement surgery! :eek:

jrkb

Had the pleasure of running against him in the 90s he was untouchable in Ireland on the mountains a joy to see him racing and a very nice guy away from racing.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

Didn’t John Lenihan turn to road running and ultimately mountain running after he failed to be selected for the Irish Olympic team for the 5000m in 1984?

No doubting his credentials, but to have him alongside Sonia O’Sullivan is a bit much in fairness.

Apart from your own personal bias towards events that happen to be acceapted by the IOC into their games, do you have any logical reason why? He is the only Irish person ever to be a world champion at mountain running. You really do miss out with your myopic view of the world of running. You should give mountain running a go sometime yourself. More than likely you'll massively regret not trying it sooner. It's not an either/or situation.

JL is a class act,and definitely an underappreciated athlete outside Mountain Running and Kerry! And he is an absolute gentleman to boot. It was always a pleasure to watch him in action disappearing into the distance up the mountain, and then shout out as he whizzed past at truely phenomenal speeds heading back down (knowing that meant that there was still probably a fair bit to to go before hitting the peak for us mortals!).

I think he was also national marathon champion at some point too. Pretty good versatility.

echat

John got good publicity for his World championship victory and it was well deserved. Con Houlihan and Frank Greally gave it good coverage. Robin Bryson was with John for most of the race and ended up 4th and essentially got no recognition outside of mountain running. Robin was a more consistent mountain runner than John and probably has three fourth place finishes (two of them uphill) as well as a Masters title and still has the fastest ascent on Snowdon. It was a little easier back in 1991 because there were two senior men's titles on offer: Up and down; and Up only. Generally the Up only race had the stronger field but they were all very mean guys. John managed to deliver victories in Zermatt and Snowdon and that was the difference. If he had an easier day job, he would have had more victories so I think in ways he did not really show how good he was.

Compared with the performances of middle-distance track athletes of the same era, Eamonn Coughlan and John Treacy stand high above everyone else as do Sonia O'Sullivan, Catherina McKiernan, and Fionnuala Britton. There is much more depth in track and field and the margins are really tight until the tape is broken.

Going further back Ronnie Delaney stands out as showing that it could be done.

Enduro

echat wrote: »

There is much more depth in track and field and the margins are really tight until the tape is broken.

You state that like its a proven fact. Now if its just your opinion that this is the case and no more, then fair enough, But I don't see any actually evidence for this being more than just an opinion.

Agree with you about Robbie Bryson. It was a bit akin to the Kelly/Roche situation in cycling that Ireland's two world class hill runners appeared in the same era.

youngrun

Worthwhile argument. Is there a bio or some more info on Lenihan ?

How many nations compete in Track and field v mountain running ? Would indicate depth .

average_runner

Are we not comparing apples and oranges here ?

These are two total different events, both athlete's got to the top of their event and we should celebrate all sports men/woman that reach the top of their sport.

So what he didn't make the olympics, its irrelevant, he found an event where he was world class, that is no less or better achievement than what Sonia did, both are amazing.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Are we not comparing apples and oranges here ?

These are two total different events, both athlete's got to the top of their event and we should celebrate all sports men/woman that reach the top of their sport.

So what he didn't make the olympics, its irrelevant, he found an event where he was world class, that is no less or better achievement than what Sonia did, both are amazing.

Is winning the Rugby World Cup or the All Ireland Football Championship equal to winning the FIFA World Cup? Is winning the World Snooker Championship (British and Chinese dominated sport) akin to winning Wimbledon?

Same reason why Katie Taylor just isn’t in the same league as Sonia O’Sullivan. The depth is just not there to anywhere near the same degree in women’s boxing.

Of course we should celebrate all sporting success, but I think you’ll find that Conor made the statement that John Lenihan is the greatest Irish athlete in history, which I find frankly daft, given Sonia O’Sullivan dominated middle and long distance running for about 3-4 years, probably the most assessable and global discipline after football, and was in the top 4-5 athletes in the world from 1992-2002, barring a couple of off years. She’s an iconic sportsperson who brought T&F into the mainstream in Ireland. The Golden Four meets as they were known then were shown live on RTÉ, all because of her. Mountain running is niche. That’s the truth. Maybe in the future it won’t be, but it’s very niche right now.

Now, favorite Irish athlete of all time? That would be an entirely different discussion.

Djoucer

I think the depth argument doesn't hold a lot of water. It assumes a lot of things, e.g Katie Taylor is not as good because of the lack of depth. Who knows?

How many world class athletes have decided to play GAA but are now thought to be less than world class because they happen to play a minority sport? Who knows.

Equally, we perhaps put far too much weight on those making the Olympics.

Arguably, the starting 15 for Dublin is far more competitive than any other sport in the country.

You can only beat those that show up.

Its pointless to compare Lenihan with Sonia etc but it's hard to argue against including them in list of Ireland's greatest runners.

ultrapercy

I finnished 5th in the IAU 50k world trophy race a few years ago. It wasnt the same as finnishing 5th in the IAAF world Championships. It wasnt even close,It wasnt even close to finnishing 5th in the Mountain world championships, it wasnt on the same planet in terms of achievement.Different sports have different weight. Superb personal achievements do not equal world class performance. John Lennihan is a hero to me, hes a very inspiring man but outlandish comparisons do him no favours.

Chivito550

Djoucer wrote: »

I think the depth argument doesn't hold a lot of water. It assumes a lot of things, e.g Katie Taylor is not as good because of the lack of depth. Who knows?

How many world class athletes have decided to play GAA but are now thought to be less than world class because they happen to play a minority sport? Who knows.

Equally, we perhaps put far too much weight on those making the Olympics.

Arguably, the starting 15 for Dublin is far more competitive than any other sport in the country.

You can only beat those that show up.

Its pointless to compare Lenihan with Sonia etc but it's hard to argue against including them in list of Ireland's greatest runners.

The bigger the base, the higher the peak.

walshb

I knew you'd bring Taylor v Sonia into this.....non stop....

Both brilliant. One just happened to win 6 world titles and Olympic Gold....

This depth argument is bull. Katie competes on a global stage, as did Sonia...

As for John Lenihan.....he is world class/elite. Best of the best at what he does/did. Easily comparable with any other great athlete that we produced

echat

In the 1991 World cross-country championships, Khalid Skah (MOR) won in 33:53 with the first Irish finisher Gerry Curtis in 123rd with a time of 36:14 which was 2:21 behind Skah. John Lenihan won in a time of 54:12. Making an adjustment for the longer winning time, the equivalent percentage time behind John would have just made it into the top 20 finishers compared with 123rd in the cross-country. That is what I mean by the difference in depth.

Djoucer

Djoucer wrote: »

I think the depth argument doesn't hold a lot of water. It assumes a lot of things, e.g Katie Taylor is not as good because of the lack of depth. Who knows?

It also means a lot more facilities, coaching, science, money etc.

When John Lenihan won the world title, he did it without the support that is taken for granted in elite athletics.

That's what sets the dedication and single mindedness of mountain runners apart, for many they did it alone, there was no specific coaching, no lucrative contract on offer. When one thinks of, say, Billy Bland's astonishing Bob Graham Round record, how long it's stood, I can understand why some athletes consider it the most outstanding achievement ever, and one that really can't be understood except to those who have some idea of what is involved.

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It also means a lot more facilities, coaching, science, money etc.

When John Lenihan won the world title, he did it without the support that is taken for granted in elite athletics.

That's what sets the dedication and single mindedness of mountain runners apart, for many they did it alone, there was no specific coaching, no lucrative contract on offer. When one thinks of, say, Billy Bland's astonishing Bob Graham Round record, how long it's stood, I can understand why some athletes consider it the most outstanding achievement ever, and one that really can't be understood except to those who have some idea of what is involved.

So we are adjusting achievements now to take account of the personal difficulties each athlete has to deal with?

John Lenihan had no support. Were his competitors funded by their respective governments though? I very much doubt that mountain running is a priority in terms of funding in any country, not just Ireland.

I disagree with ultrapercy a good bit, but his comment above is as much on the money as anything I’ve read on this forum. Pure outlandish comparisons.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

The bigger the base, the higher the peak.

Aww ome on... is that the best youcan come up with. It's so obviouly rubbish in a sporting context.

So is what your saying is greatest can only emerge from a large population of particpants. By that definition Ireland producing any running world champion in any athletic event should not be possible. We don't have any base of any size worth considering compared to countries such as the USA and Russia.

If Jamaca was one of only a few countries to have an active sprinting base would that mean that Usain Bolt was a less impressive athlete, even if he ran the same times, but won by bigger margins?

Enduro

echat wrote: »

In the 1991 World cross-country championships, Khalid Skah (MOR) won in 33:53 with the first Irish finisher Gerry Curtis in 123rd with a time of 36:14 which was 2:21 behind Skah. John Lenihan won in a time of 54:12. Making an adjustment for the longer winning time, the equivalent percentage time behind John would have just made it into the top 20 finishers compared with 123rd in the cross-country. That is what I mean by the difference in depth.

By thids criteria, was Bob Beaman's jump in Mexico 1968 a poor enough display, given the huge winning margin indicating a lack of competitive depth, both that year and for decades afterwards?

I do see what you're saying, I just don't think that having a close spread accross results indicates either depth of quality.or that the quality of the winner . They could all be good, but equally they could all be relatively poor.

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

Aww ome on... is that the best youcan come up with. It's so obviouly rubbish in a sporting context.

So is what your saying is greatest can only emerge from a large population of particpants. By that definition Ireland producing any running world champion in any athletic event should not be possible. We don't have any base of any size worth considering compared to countries such as the USA and Russia.

If Jamaca was one of only a few countries to have an active sprinting base would that mean that Usain Bolt was a less impressive athlete, even if he ran the same times, but won by bigger margins?

If you want to believe that John Lenihan would have been Olympic medalist if it came under the IAAF organization and promotion of athletics and was included as part of the Olympic programme since the early 20th century, then whatever makes you happy. Delusional I’d say.

The bigger the base, the higher the peak. You can get world champions from small countries, but they are considerably rarer than from USA, GB, France, Russia etc. Ireland haven’t produced a global outdoor medalist on the track since Sonia.

Enduro

youngrun wrote: »

Worthwhile argument. Is there a bio or some more info on Lenihan ?

How many nations compete in Track and field v mountain running ? Would indicate depth .

There is biography of JL around alright.

As an aside, whilst doing some googling yesterday I stumbled accross a great runners world (American) article about hill running in Ireland from years ago, which does give a bit ofinfo on JL. A great read..... https://www.runnersworld.com/where-to-run/madness-in-the-wild-irish-hills

Joe_ Public

walshb wrote: »

I knew you'd bring Taylor v Sonia into this.....non stop....

Both brilliant. One just happened to win 6 world titles and Olympic Gold....

This depth argument is bull. Katie competes on a global stage, as did Sonia...

As for John Lenihan.....he is world class/elite. Best of the best at what he does/did. Easily comparable with any other great athlete that we produced

Problem for me with the Taylor thing is it fails to take into account the fierce battles for her to get into the ring in the first place. The prejudice and discrimination she had to deal with, all largely forgotten now of course.

Not that OSullivan didn’t have her own battles to fight too. It’s why I don’t really like these arguments or discussions in the first place, to get to the top in most sports takes a phenomenal level of guts and determination as well as talent.

Was only talking about John Lenehan with someone the other day, what a total legend of a man. Talked about the “iron man” Mick Murphy too. They breed them hard down there to be sure.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

If you want to believe that John Lenihan would have been Olympic medalist if it came under the IAAF organization and promotion of athletics and was included as part of the Olympic programme since the early 20th century, then whatever makes you happy. Delusional I’d say.

The bigger the base, the higher the peak. You can get world champions from small countries, but they are considerably rarer than from USA, GB, France, Russia etc. Ireland haven’t produced a global outdoor medalist on the track since Sonia.

I think your myopia for olympic athletics is showing again. i mean come on. Do you really think that people generally take up a sport because of the possibility of winning an olympic medal. That's just divorced from reality, especailly considering the majority of highest participation sports in the world (and Ireland for that matter) either aren't olympic sports, or their olmpics are just a sdideshow event in the sport (such as for soccer and golf, for illustration).

Why on earth could JL not have been an olmpic medalist if mountain running was an olympic sport?

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

I think your myopia for olympic athletics is showing again. i mean come on. Do you really think that people generally take up a sport because of the possibility of winning an olympic medal. That's just divorced from reality, especailly considering the majority of highest participation sports in the world (and Ireland for that matter) either aren't olympic sports, or their olmpics are just a sdideshow event in the sport (such as for soccer and golf, for illustration).

Why on earth could JL not have been an olmpic medalist if mountain running was an olympic sport?

There’s just no talking to you on this matter. It’s like you are trying to protect the achievements of people you might know in extremely niche disciplines. Or more accurately, big up these achievements.

If mountain running was an Olympic discipline, it would encourage greater participation. Is this really that difficult to understand? More people would take up the sport as it would have more exposure, more people would know the sport exists.

Comparing sports like football and tennis (where the Olympics is not the biggest event, but which have massive events of their own) to mountain running (which has no event that gains any kind of media and television exposure) is laughable. The former are massive sports which do not need the Olympics, the latter would benefit hugely in terms of increased exposure, if it was an Olympic sport.

As for JL, he only moved to mountain running after he failed to get the nod from the selection committee for the 1984 Olympics. Had he made LA, and perhaps made the semi final, would he have even bothered with mountain running? It clearly wasn’t his first choice otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to qualify for the Olympics.