John Lenihan-Irelands Unsung World Champion

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

There’s just no talking to you on this matter. It’s like you are trying to protect the achievements of people you might know in extremely niche disciplines.

If mountain running was an Olympic discipline, it would encourage greater participation. Is this really that difficult to understand? More people would take up the sport as it would have more exposure, more people would know the sport exists.

Comparing sports like football and tennis (where the Olympics is not the biggest event, but which have massive events of their own) to mountain running (which has no event that gains any kind of media and television exposure) is laughable. The former are massive sports which do not need the Olympics, the latter would benefit hugely in terms of increased exposure, if it was an Olympic sport.

As for JL, he only moved to mountain running after he failed to get the nod from the selection committee for the 1984 Olympics.

John didn't have the speed to be a great 5000m runner but it doesn't mean he wasn't a great athlete. His strength was his strength. Steve Ovett was a "failed sprinter" but turned into one of the great middle distance runners as he was stronger than he was fast. Not making a comparison of depth but just illustrating strengths and weaknesses. Just like a few guys who can obliterate me on the road struggle to keep up in XC. Personally, I think ye are all wrong:p and that John Treacy is the best Irish athlete of all-time but that doesn't take away any of the lustre of how great Lenihan or anyone else was, I can still appreciate how good he was at mountain running. I don't see why you need to tear him down by saying he was a failed track runner. The man was an animal who often duked it out with the likes of Treacy and Kiernan on the roads as well.

We're always looking for more discussion on athletics here but with discussion comes different opinions and I think that needs to be respected or it just turns it into a shouting match. We might get more if these threads stayed a bit civil while still getting the points across.

ultrapercy

El Caballo wrote: »

John didn't have the speed to be a great 5000m runner but it doesn't mean he wasn't a great athlete. His strength was his strength. Steve Ovett was a "failed sprinter" but turned into one of the great middle distance runners as he was stronger than he was fast. Not making a comparison of depth but just illustrating strengths and weaknesses. Just like a few guys who can obliterate me on the road struggle to keep up in XC. Personally, I think ye are all wrong:p and that John Treacy is the best Irish athlete of all-time but that doesn't take away any of the lustre of how great Lenihan or anyone else was, I can still appreciate how good he was at mountain running. I don't see why you need to tear him down by saying he was a failed track runner. The man was an animal who often duked it out with the likes of Treacy and Kiernan on the roads as well.

We're always looking for more discussion on athletics here but with discussion comes different opinions and I think that needs to be respected or it just turns it into a shouting match. We might get more if these threads stayed a bit civil while still getting the points across.

I have to say I havent seen anything uncivil in this discussion so far. I dont think anyone has or is trying to detract from John Lenihan as an athlete and Im certainly not. I have the height of respect and admiration for the man. I do think that outlandish comparisons do nobody any favours. In my opinion no Irish Sports person can light a candle to Sonia for consistency of world class performance. I include all the usual heros in that keano,drico, deano, Robo, Mclroyo or green centered oreo. She is the best by a long way I believe. What JL achieved was fantastic and deserving probably of more aclaim than it gets. Its certainly a greater achievement than beating New Zealand in a rugby friendly match but he isnt anywhere close to Irelands best ever athlete. But thats just like my opinion, man.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

John didn't have the speed to be a great 5000m runner but it doesn't mean he wasn't a great athlete. His strength was his strength. Steve Ovett was a "failed sprinter" but turned into one of the great middle distance runners as he was stronger than he was fast. Not making a comparison of depth but just illustrating strengths and weaknesses. Just like a few guys who can obliterate me on the road struggle to keep up in XC. Personally, I think ye are all wrong:p and that John Treacy is the best Irish athlete of all-time but that doesn't take away any of the lustre of how great Lenihan or anyone else was, I can still appreciate how good he was at mountain running. I don't see why you need to tear him down by saying he was a failed track runner. The man was an animal who often duked it out with the likes of Treacy and Kiernan on the roads as well.

We're always looking for more discussion on athletics here but with discussion comes different opinions and I think that needs to be respected or it just turns it into a shouting match. We might get more if these threads stayed a bit civil while still getting the points across.

Maybe we should list each person’s achievements in separate posts. It will become pretty clear to anyone without a bias that Sonia O’Sullivan is head and shoulders above the rest.

If I was biased towards my own discipline I could say Derval O’Rourke is the greatest of all time. She’s a World Champion after all, and a big time competitor, who performed to her best when it mattered most, on multiple occasions. A sprinter could look at her as our greatest if that person was biased.

Most posters here can associate themselves more with road running, mountain running, ultra distances than they can with track running. There will naturally be bias.

Objectively though, I fail to see how anybody can rank any athlete above Sonia O’Sullivan, not to mention somebody in a niche discipline. Her vast list of global and continental achievements speaks for itself.

I think bigging up his achievements to the level of O’Sullivan and Coghlan sounds a bit desperate to be honest. It does JL a great disservice. A thread which could have been set up to honour a great athlete is spoiled because it starts out with a statement which simply is not true.

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

If you want to believe that John Lenihan would have been Olympic medalist if it came under the IAAF organization and promotion of athletics and was included as part of the Olympic programme since the early 20th century, then whatever makes you happy. Delusional I’d say.

The bigger the base, the higher the peak. You can get world champions from small countries, but they are considerably rarer than from USA, GB, France, Russia etc. Ireland haven’t produced a global outdoor medalist on the track since Sonia.

To play Devils advocate. Doesn't this contradict your position on Sonia though? As we know, Women were banned from long distance races since the 1920's. It wasn't until 84 that anything further than 1500m was allowed in the Olympics for women. The claims you have made against Taylor could also be drawn to Sonia as Womens distance running was a new enough Olympic sport and lets face it, the depth in Womens distance running has never been really strong globally compared to the mens side and still isn't to this day. Not been sexist before I get called out for it;) but the qualifying standards prove it.

Pherekydes

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maybe we should list each person’s achievements in separate posts. It will become pretty clear to anyone without a bias that Sonia O’Sullivan is head and shoulders above the rest.

I've checked, and Sonia's name doesn't appear anywhere on the 5000m all-time list, which is probably her best event.

She's our greatest ever female athlete (sports person, even), obviously, but she can't be compared to Ronnie Delany, Eamonn Coghlan, John Treacy, Bob Tisdall or Pat O'Callaghan.

Chivito550

Pherekydes wrote: »

I've checked, and Sonia's name doesn't appear anywhere on the 5000m all-time list, which is probably her best event.

She's our greatest ever female athlete (sports person, even), obviously, but she can't be compared to Ronnie Delany, Eamonn Coghlan, John Treacy, Bob Tisdall or Pat O'Callaghan.

Her PB in the 5000m doesn’t reflect her ability. In her book she said that in 1995 in the lead up to Gothenburg she was in 14:30 shape if she needed it on the day. She didn’t need it. She won easily in 14:46. Sonia ran 8:21 for 3000m (which equates to14:24 for 5000m) so it’s obvious her PB doesn’t reflect her ability over 5000m. She never really chased times over 5000m during her peak 1994/1995 years like she did over 1500m and 3000m (5000m only became a championship event in 1995). The fact her 5000m PB comes from an unpaced Olympic final in 2000 highlights this.

None of the men you mentioned are ranked as high as Sonia in Championship disciplines. In fact the highest male on any track all time list in a current Championship discipline (not counting women’s 3000m anymore, where Sonia is one of the fastest in history), is actually Thomas Barr in the 400m hurdles, so your argument is flawed.

And Bob Tisdall and Pat O’Callaghan winning against a handful of people in the 20s and 30s ahead of Sonia? Seriously?

Keeks

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maybe we should list each person’s achievements in separate posts. It will become pretty clear to anyone without a bias that Sonia O’Sullivan is head and shoulders above the rest.

But would that selection be by popularity or ability?

And what I mean by that is, would people select just because they know the name.

Chivito550

Keeks wrote: »

But would that selection be by popularity or ability?

And what I mean by that is, would people select just because they know the name.

Athletics is hardly a popular sport in Ireland. There’s a reason people know who she is. Probably something to do with her 11 major championship medals (which would be more, and contain more gold but for drug cheats).

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

To play Devils advocate. Doesn't this contradict your position on Sonia though? As we know, Women were banned from long distance races since the 1920's. It wasn't until 84 that anything further than 1500m was allowed in the Olympics for women. The claims you have made against Taylor could also be drawn to Sonia as Womens distance running was a new enough Olympic sport and lets face it, the depth in Womens distance running has never been really strong globally compared to the mens side and still isn't to this day. Not been sexist before I get called out for it;) but the qualifying standards prove it.

Yes, but you could swing it around then and say all our best males competed before the East Africans emerged. If Mark Carroll was born 10 years earlier I believe he’d have won more medals than Coghlan and Treacy did, but instead he’s hardly known outside athletics circles despite a 7:30 3000m.

Sonia on the other hand competed against top East Africans. Ok, not as strong as those that are around now, but the likes of Tulu and Wami were no mugs and are considered all time greats of the sport.

Pherekydes

Chivito550 wrote: »

Her PB in the 5000m doesn’t reflect her ability. In her book she said that in 1995 in the lead up to Gothenburg she was in 14:30 shape if she needed it on the day. She didn’t need it. She won easily in 14:46. Sonia ran 8:21 for 3000m (which equates to14:24 for 5000m) so it’s obvious her PB doesn’t reflect her ability over 5000m. She never really chased times over 5000m during her peak 1994/1995 years like she did over 1500m and 3000m (5000m only became a championship event in 1995). The fact her 5000m PB comes from an unpaced Olympic final in 2000 highlights this.

Had Sonia run 14 minutes flat for 5k she would still be over half a minute slower than Coghlan when he won a tactical world title.

Chivito550

Pherekydes wrote: »

Had Sonia run 14 minutes flat for 5k she would still be over half a minute slower than Coghlan when he won a tactical world title.

Right, so a woman can never be considered as the greatest unless she runs faster than the man. So Tirunish Dibaba ranks lower than John Travers on the all time greats over 5000m. Good to know.

ThisRegard

Why can't you just appreciate an Irish athlete who was outstanding in the events he specialised in instead of constantly attempting to diminish his achievements and take him down a peg or two at every opportunity you get?

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

Why can't you just appreciate an Irish athlete who was outstanding in the events he specialised in instead of constantly attempting to diminish his achievements and take him down a peg or two at every opportunity you get?

It's pretty sad that you're so determined to do so.

Is that directed at me or at ultrapercy? I believe we have both said the exact same thing.

He's not close to being Ireland's greatest ever athlete, and such statements should be called out.

I don't see anything on this thread that is uncivil, or anything that diminishes his athletic ability.

walshb

Pherekydes wrote: »

Had Sonia run 14 minutes flat for 5k she would still be over half a minute slower than Coghlan when he won a tactical world title.

Sonia is for me every bit as great if not greater than Eamon. Women cannot better men. That's is all you are saying really. Success wise and achievements wise she is right up there, and if you delve deeper she had a more successful athletics career at the very top.

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

As for JL, he only moved to mountain running after he failed to get the nod from the selection committee for the 1984 Olympics. Had he made LA, and perhaps made the semi final, would he have even bothered with mountain running? It clearly wasn’t his first choice otherwise he wouldn’t have tried to qualify for the Olympics.

You've mentioned this a few times - in fact you previously asserted that he only turned to road running and mountain running after he failed to be selected, as if somehow mountain running was the second choice of a failed track athlete.

He certainly had been road running for years before 1984, he was selected for national road running and indeed cross country teams. Afaik his first mountain run was in 1985 in the Warriors Run Sligo...but it was the first time the event was held at all.

One could suggest that the Brownlees only moved into triathlons because they couldn't hack it fell running, but I'm sure it would be laughed at.

Djoucer

Just to knock the deliberately obtuse "failed" 5,000 metre runner.

From the man himself.

"I knew then I had a talent for running on the mountains that I didn’t have to the same extent in any other discipline, and I have to attribute my environment to that."

Man likes running. Discovers he's better at mountain eunning.

Every single runner has experienced the same. You spend a few years before you find your distance/terrain.

Speaks volumes that when presented with why JL is a great, someone attempts to point out he wasn't great at a distance he didn't specIalise in. Which is the case for every world champion.

Chivito550

Djoucer wrote: »

Just to knock the deliberately obtuse "failed" 5,000 metre runner.

From the man himself.

"I knew then I had a talent for running on the mountains that I didn’t have to the same extent in any other discipline, and I have to attribute my environment to that."

Man likes running. Discovers he's better at mountain eunning.

Every single runner has experienced the same. You spend a few years before you find your distance/terrain.

Speaks volumes that when presented with why JL is a great, someone attempts to point out he wasn't great at a distance he didn't specIalise in. Which is the case for every world champion.

To be fair, not once did I say he wasn’t great at what he did. I said he wasn’t the greatest Irish runner of all time, and believe the comparison with O’Sullivan and Coghlan to be silly.

It also speaks volumes about some of the people here that when 2 posters say the exact same thing, all the reaction at such posts gets targeted at only one of those posters.

Peterx

John Lenihan was Kerryman of the Year once, in a county of stellar inter county GAA players. So not quite unsung but for sure enough not very well known either.

Some great stories in the book "Tough as Leather"

One who I think was/is actually unsung is Eoin Rheinisch who has quietly toiled away at his training, went to 3 Olympics in Slalom Canoe and finished 4th in Beijing in 2008. That was agonising as he was fastest with only 3 remaining to go. I happened to catch it live on TV.

Many minority sports have unsung heroes. The beauty of minority sports and the likes of John Lenihan/Rheinish/Robin Seymour is that we get to toe the same startline as talented athletes and when John was down to one hip, we got to race him!

His passion for running and racing ensured he kept racing which was fantastic for the likes of me. A living breathing legend to look up to and attempt to race against. Much like Robbie Bryson, a nicer more unassuming set of chaps you couldn't hope to meet and yet ferociously competitive, right into their 50's, and beyond hopefully

Chivito550

Peterx wrote: »

John Lenihan was Kerryman of the Year once, in a county of stellar inter county GAA players. So not quite unsung but for sure enough not very well known either.

Some great stories in the book "Tough as Leather"

One who I think was/is actually unsung is Eoin Rheinisch who has quietly toiled away at his training, went to 3 Olympics in Slalom Canoe and finished 4th in Beijing in 2008. That was agonising as he was fastest with only 3 remaining to go. I happened to catch it live on TV.

Many minority sports have unsung heroes. The beauty of minority sports and the likes of John Lenihan/Rheinish/Robin Seymour is that we get to toe the same startline as talented athletes and when John was down to one hip, we got to race him!

His passion for running and racing ensured he kept racing which was fantastic for the likes of me. A living breathing legend to look up to and attempt to race against. Much like Robbie Bryson, a nicer more unassuming set of chaps you couldn't hope to meet and yet ferociously competitive, right into their 50's, and beyond hopefully

Yeh Sam Lynch another. 4th in Atlanta, followed by 2 world titles (albeit in non Olympic boat), then a world bronze the year before Athens in an Olympic boat. Athens was to be the moment he’d become known to the wider public, then it all went pearshaped.

In many minority sports (wouldn’t class athletics as one as the world championships and European championships get big coverage) if you don’t do it at the Olympics nobody knows about you. In minority sports that aren’t in the Olympics, nobody will hear about you no matter what you achieve really. It’s sad. We as a nation are too obsessed with team field sports.

Chivito550

Peterx wrote: »

John Lenihan was Kerryman of the Year once, in a county of stellar inter county GAA players. So not quite unsung but for sure enough not very well known either.

Some great stories in the book "Tough as Leather"

One who I think was/is actually unsung is Eoin Rheinisch who has quietly toiled away at his training, went to 3 Olympics in Slalom Canoe and finished 4th in Beijing in 2008. That was agonising as he was fastest with only 3 remaining to go. I happened to catch it live on TV.

Many minority sports have unsung heroes. The beauty of minority sports and the likes of John Lenihan/Rheinish/Robin Seymour is that we get to toe the same startline as talented athletes and when John was down to one hip, we got to race him!

His passion for running and racing ensured he kept racing which was fantastic for the likes of me. A living breathing legend to look up to and attempt to race against. Much like Robbie Bryson, a nicer more unassuming set of chaps you couldn't hope to meet and yet ferociously competitive, right into their 50's, and beyond hopefully

Interesting about the Kerryman of the year. That’s a huge accolade given how obsessed with GAA people are there. Gillian O’Sullivan, a Kerry woman won silver in 2003 at the Worlds. I was in south Kerry at the time, and nobody cared. Kerry were playing Tyrone that day and that’s all people cared about. They got hammered which was karma for such unappreciation for an enormous achievement by one of their own. She’s probably the most unheralded of all our top athletes over the years.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Interesting about the Kerryman of the year. That’s a huge accolade given how obsessed with GAA people are there. Gillian O’Sullivan, a Kerry woman won silver in 2003 at the Worlds. I was in south Kerry at the time, and nobody cared. Kerry were playing Tyrone that day and that’s all people cared about. They got hammered which was karma for such unappreciation for an enormous achievement by one of their own. She’s probably the most unheralded of all our top athletes over the years.

I am sure if you go to any serious hurling or football county, if they are in the All-Ireland final, you would find most wouldn't care about the world championship an athlete was in!!!

demfad

echat wrote: »

In the 1991 World cross-country championships, Khalid Skah (MOR) won in 33:53 with the first Irish finisher Gerry Curtis in 123rd with a time of 36:14 which was 2:21 behind Skah. John Lenihan won in a time of 54:12. Making an adjustment for the longer winning time, the equivalent percentage time behind John would have just made it into the top 20 finishers compared with 123rd in the cross-country. That is what I mean by the difference in depth.

There is something to the difference in standards between codes argument but it doesnt explain all of the differentials above.

Compare the differential in a flat cycling stage with a mountainous one. Climbing (strenght) endurance is by far the limiting factor uphill and this limit can result in pretty dramatic losses in pace and big gaps.

(granted drafting makes it easier to bunch on the flat in cycling)

jrkb

I remember after a mountain race in the mid 90s there was a discussion about JL and one of the athletes told me about JL racing J Treacy in a mountain race and how Treacy matched him on the ascent but was blown away by JL on the descent,can anyone of the mountain runners on here confirm this or check it out,I know some of ye might be able to ask the man himself.

jamule

jrkb wrote: »

I remember after a mountain race in the mid 90s there was a discussion about JL and one of the athletes told me about JL racing J Treacy in a mountain race and how Treacy matched him on the ascent but was blown away by JL on the descent,can anyone of the mountain runners on here confirm this or check it out,I know some of ye might be able to ask the man himself.

I vaguely remember something about that. Anyone got a report from the 1st warrior run, that must have been some effort to beat Kenny Stuart.

I only seen him go downhill once, at the ****e on top of caher when i was on the way up, I could just stand back in amazement. If reminded me of a goat flying down the rocks

ultrapercy

Pherekydes wrote: »

Had Sonia run 14 minutes flat for 5k she would still be over half a minute slower than Coghlan when he won a tactical world title.

I cant see the point of that statement at all. It has no relevance. If Katie Taylor met any of millions of male boxers in her olympic final she would not have won. Does that detract from her achievement. Apologies if im misinterpreting your post.

average_runner

jrkb wrote: »

I remember after a mountain race in the mid 90s there was a discussion about JL and one of the athletes told me about JL racing J Treacy in a mountain race and how Treacy matched him on the ascent but was blown away by JL on the descent,can anyone of the mountain runners on here confirm this or check it out,I know some of ye might be able to ask the man himself.

But that would be expected, running on descent is a skill. I am sure Treacy would of blown him away on the track

echat

jrkb wrote: »

I remember after a mountain race in the mid 90s there was a discussion about JL and one of the athletes told me about JL racing J Treacy in a mountain race and how Treacy matched him on the ascent but was blown away by JL on the descent,can anyone of the mountain runners on here confirm this or check it out,I know some of ye might be able to ask the man himself.

I wonder did he mean John Downes (West Limerick) in the World trials in the early 1990s? John Treacy turned 40 in the mid-1990s and had retired.

El Caballo

echat wrote: »

I wonder did he mean John Downes (West Limerick) in the World trials in the early 1990s? John Treacy turned 40 in the mid-1990s and had retired.

It was John Downes alright. I've heard this story a good few few times from a few of the lads who used to train with him back in the day.

echat

El Caballo wrote: »

It was John Downes alright. I've heard this story a good few few times from a few of the lads who used to train with him back in the day.

It was on the first climb that John Downes got into difficulty. A 600 metres climb at around 25% and John starts sprinting up it flat out for 300m. He probably looked up then and saw that the steeper half was still to come, that his legs were burning, and that no one had followed him. He eased off after that and enjoyed the scenery. The same lad is a national cross-country champion amongst many other achievements.

Catherina McKiernan and Fionnuala Britton would have won World mountain running championships.

El Caballo

echat wrote: »

It was on the first climb that John Downes got into difficulty. A 600 metres climb at around 25% and John starts sprinting up it flat out for 300m. He probably looked up then and saw that the steeper half was still to come, that his legs were burning, and that no one had followed him. He eased off after that and enjoyed the scenery. The same lad is a national cross-country champion amongst many other achievements.

Catherina McKiernan and Fionnuala Britton would have won World mountain running championships.

Not just national here but he also the British national XC in 96. 13:29 on the track as well.

I wouldn't say he eased off after the climb as he said something along the lines of waking up the next day feeling like someone had poured concrete up his arse:D