Property Market 2018

Fol20

In relation to social welfare for the long term unemployed that face no incentive to work. France have a system although not perfect forces people to work more(the ones that refuse to work). I don’t know the exact specs of their system however if you work for say 2 years. Your entitled to 2 years of dole at circa 80pc of your salary. Once that ends. You basically have to work or you don’t earn. So for hard working people that have put in decades into a job and fall on hard times, they are covered. For the people who earn good money and try and maintain a certain lifestyle. They are covered. For the people that are lazy and can’t be arsed. They are NOT covered. I would like an adjust adjustment to more of a similar style here as people can’t really complain if they are not getting the dole if they haven’t worked a day in the last 10years

doolox

Some people will never work for various health, social or mental health reasons.
"Normal" people have got to accept this fact of life otherwise they will destroy themselves emotionally and physically by being jealous of the imagined recipients of the great largesse of the State.

In most cases this largesse is illusionary and most social welfare clients are constantly being challenged and denied payments if they do not make at least a token effort to obtain and retain employment.

There was a time in history when people were labelled as "lazy" and "irresolute" if they could not hold down a job and stay employed for any length of time. The truth is that some people are simply not fit for work and it it is futile trying to force them to work. Some people will never be able to work without massive amounts of supervision and oversight by more qualified people who are expensive to employ themselves. more expensive than the net gain you get from forcing chronically unemployable people to work in the first place.

From society's point of view it is cheaper to let some people idle away their lives rather than trying to make them work in some perverted way of trying to be "fair" to the general population by forcing these non willing people to work.

In a brutal sense society is better off writing these people off, trying to contain their bad effects on the general society and moving on with building up and developing those people who are actually willing to work in the first place.

Unfortunately very little effort is made in developing and nurturing industrious and earnest people in our society. Rather they are heavily taxed and exploited at every turn and fined at every little breach of laws as they try and make their way to work, fined at every breach of onerous tax laws and fined at every little mistake they make in the conduct of their businesses.

It is easier to sit back and do nothing in this country than to try and make a living on your own account.

We have witnessed a drastic decline in craft trade apprenticeships and moderate level educational jobs and this is impacting adversely on our ability to adequately house or care or nurse our people. All these workers are fleeing abroad to better opportunities in the face of a hostile work and tax and commuting and housing environment at home.

This needs to be sorted out urgently.

hmmm

The_Conductor wrote: »

The hundreds of thousands of Irish people in well paid jobs- are not benefiting. They are getting slaughtered with taxes- and for those who are doing pretty ok, but not spectacularly- very often they'd actually be better off on social welfare.

We have created an unsustainable social welfare state- where someone has to pay for the largess we dollop out to those who qualify- to prevent them being 'left behind'.

We have a massive and very well paid public sector. We give people endless dole for not working, and now apparently we are supposed to give them all free houses in the city within sight of their mother as well. All this takes taxes, and lots of them.

On top of all that, we have a low rise city with bungalows within walking distance of the city centre. We can't build up because it "ruins the vistas" of the city, or overlooks someones house. We have squeezed landlords out of the rental market, yet are opposed to professional landlords building large blocks. We want 25% social housing for people who don't work, and want people who do work to buy their own houses in the same estates. It's a complete mess full of contradictions and there is no easy answer in sight.

sightband

hmmm wrote: »

We have a massive and very well paid public sector. We give people endless dole for not working, and now apparently we are supposed to give them all free houses in the city within sight of their mother as well. All this takes taxes, and lots of them.

On top of all that, we have a low rise city with bungalows within walking distance of the city centre. We can't build up because it "ruins the vistas" of the city, or overlooks someones house. We have squeezed landlords out of the rental market, yet are opposed to professional landlords building large blocks. We want 25% social housing for people who don't work, and want people who do work to buy their own houses in the same estates. It's a complete mess full of contradictions and there is no easy answer in sight.

Having been to a number of new developments, seems the social housing requirement is somewhat overstated. They are building nice houses and then generally right next to the first phase of houses is a big eyesore of a structure which is a combination of apartments and duplexes. Clay farm and bishops gate in Carrickmines and Kilternan. I’d be very hesitant to buy in a first phase with these next to you...who cares about the tenants and how great they are, any prospective buyer down the road will have their doubts and will certainly devalue. The difference between the prices in phases is not all that much to have that liability in terms of value and neighbours, not to mention the eyesore in front of your 500k house.

Interested Observer

engiweirdo wrote: »

The reality for a lot of people now, even well qualified young professionals is tenements or at least the modern equivalent are back with a bang. Bloody room sharing in tiny apartments is a thing now. In 2018, almost 100 years post "independence" we have created housing situations akin to those prevalent in Dublin during the Lockout, Rising, War of Independence era. Progress eh?

I'm a relatively young professional and I've worked with lots and lots of young professionals over the last number of years and I haven't met anyone living in a tenement. Or room sharing in a tiny apartment.

Villa05

Augeo wrote:

The amount at which they would pay the higher rate has increased.....proportionately that's of more benefit to someone lower paid so too the USC changes. Your points are contradictory or you have no clue about how taxation changes in the last few budgets effected take home wages and tax paid.. proportionately. Seems as your point is based on proportions rather than numbers Many low paid jobs are handy as fook too....handiest gigs I had were low paid..... wouldn't fancy it long-term of course but bed .... make....lie....etc etc

I'm struggling to understand your first point. The lower paid dont hit the higher rate of income tax
Many low paid jobs are hard graft. Have you ever worked in a hotel kitchen

USC should have been left alone for the reasons the conducted has outlined

Villa05

dor843088 wrote:

We don't have a housing crisis in Ireland. We have a major city affordability "crisis" . You can buy very reasonably prices homes much less than an hour outside Dublin with a mortgage of around 500 to 600 quid a month. I live in such an area and commute to Dublin. Maybe I should have declared myself homeless and went around whinging about the "crisis" we are in rather than getting on with it and buying a house I could afford in a location I could afford.

Highly commendable on your part. Many others are forced into doing the same thing.
We elect governments to do the right thing for the country. The Government is well aware that there are massive penalties on the way for Ireland failing to meet its carbon emissions targets. Housing policies that drive people further away from their workplace make meeting these targets far more difficult.

The Government appear to be on course to punish you through higher fuel taxes rather implementing common sense housing policies that would enable you and other workers attain accommodation closer to your workplace at affordable prices

Now I'm sure they will blame cows for farting and belching or the EU either way the fines have to be paid and fuel taxes appear to be their answer

no.8

Villa05 wrote: »

Highly commendable on your part. Many others are forced into doing the same thing.
We elect governments to do the right thing for the country. The Government is well aware that there are massive penalties on the way for Ireland failing to meet its carbon emissions targets. Housing policies that drive people further away from their workplace make meeting these targets far more difficult.

The Government appear to be on course to punish you through higher fuel taxes rather implementing common sense housing policies that would enable you and other workers attain accommodation closer to your workplace at affordable prices

Now I'm sure they will blame cows for farting and belching or the EU either way the fines have to be paid and fuel taxes appear to be their answer

Excellent post. Pushing workers further and further out of the city will fail (even if we had an A+ public transport system). This is seriously modelling London at this point and our roads cannot cope with all the daily influx. There is a startling lack of communication from the government bodies wrt housing and strategic planning. They need to build up near the city centre, clusters of multi-storied buildings, preferably near the planned metro north (or future metro lines). Why are the decision makers consistently behind with lateral thinking. They cannot continue to dig up the country-side for 2 storey semi'd's and ignore the issues.

Bluefoam

Irish people want to live in 2 story semi detached. The quality of apartments in this city are appalling.

no.8

Bluefoam wrote: »

Irish people want to live in 2 story semi detached. The quality of apartments in this city are appalling.

That's some sweeping statement you just made there. Wow...council member?. So what if 'Irish people' do. I'm Irish and I don't. It doesn't work and what are we going to do. Build estates until we reach the cliffs edge?
3rd world countries have more impressive skylines than we can muster. It's almost as if some people pull their conservative cap on the second they step off the aeroplane at Dublin airport.

dor843088

Villa05 wrote: »

Highly commendable on your part. Many others are forced into doing the same thing.
We elect governments to do the right thing for the country. The Government is well aware that there are massive penalties on the way for Ireland failing to meet its carbon emissions targets. Housing policies that drive people further away from their workplace make meeting these targets far more difficult.

The Government appear to be on course to punish you through higher fuel taxes rather implementing common sense housing policies that would enable you and other workers attain accommodation closer to your workplace at affordable prices

Now I'm sure they will blame cows for farting and belching or the EU either way the fines have to be paid and fuel taxes appear to be their answer

I think the future is going to be commuting tbh. Electric cars will make the commute cost far less and self driving cars will make it even more convenient and much faster. You could jump into a car and take a nap and wake up at your destination in record time for pennies compared to today's costs of commuting. The car will bugger off and find its own parking spot, charge itself if needed and pick you up outside work when you're ready to take another nap on the way home. And if automation kills all our jobs like is predicted we won't need to live in a city anyway. People are moving to cities now but I think the trend will reverse at some stage.

Pussyhands

dor843088 wrote: »

I think the future is going to be commuting tbh. Electric cars will make the commute cost far less and self driving cars will make it even more convenient and much faster. You could jump into a car and take a nap and wake up at your destination in record time for pennies compared to today's costs of commuting. The car will bugger off and find its own parking spot, charge itself if needed and pick you up outside work when you're ready to take another nap on the way home. And if automation kills all our jobs like is predicted we won't need to live in a city anyway. People are moving to cities now but I think the trend will reverse at some stage.

I think this whole self driving thing is really far away for now.

I'd say at least 20-30 years before the scenario you wrote is possible.

Cyrus

dor843088 wrote: »

I think the future is going to be commuting tbh. Electric cars will make the commute cost far less and self driving cars will make it even more convenient and much faster. You could jump into a car and take a nap and wake up at your destination in record time for pennies compared to today's costs of commuting. The car will bugger off and find its own parking spot, charge itself if needed and pick you up outside work when you're ready to take another nap on the way home. And if automation kills all our jobs like is predicted we won't need to live in a city anyway. People are moving to cities now but I think the trend will reverse at some stage.

totally agree with you, itll change society hugely

i dont think its as far away as people think, when it happens itll happen quickly

youll see natural beauty spots away from urban centres go up in price.

Bluefoam

no.8 wrote: »

That's some sweeping statement you just made there. Wow...council member?. So what if 'Irish people' do. I'm Irish and I don't. It doesn't work and what are we going to do. Build estates until we reach the cliffs edge?
3rd world countries have more impressive skylines than we can muster. It's almost as if some people pull their conservative cap on the second they step off the aeroplane at Dublin airport.

Deep breaths and relax... I didn't say thats how it has to be, nor that I agree with it... just stating that thats what Irish buyers want, what they aspire to.

I'd love to see some suitable apartment developments proposed, but I don't see it as likely

Arthur Daley

So, the powerful interests behind fossil fuels and the car industry (and the govt. tax take, M50 toll etc) will willingly take their bread and butter living and hand it to us for mere pennies per trip. So we can have a snooze on the way to work. I don't know, but I'm sceptical about this vision. It might happen, who can say, but I've seen little evidence to date of powerful commercial interests using the political system to make our working lives comfy and snug.


The move to cities is a global trend, not unique to Ireland. Again it is hard to see how or why Ireland would be able to buck this trend.

dor843088

Pussyhands wrote: »

I think this whole self driving thing is really far away for now.

I'd say at least 20-30 years before the scenario you wrote is possible.

11 years ago there was no such thing as a smartphone. 30 years ago I changed the channel on my 6 channel tv with a huge button on the front of it and nobody had a computer and those who bought in Swords were deemed to have moved to the countryside. 30 years is a hell of a long time.

engiweirdo

The viable tech is prob only a year or two away. All depends on how readily implemented it will be and how well received. Could take an entire generation tbh, cant see many giving up their autonomy for a shared vehicle but younger people priced out of car ownership will readiily embrace it.

dor843088

Arthur Daley wrote: »

So, the powerful interests behind fossil fuels and the car industry (and the govt. tax take, M50 toll etc) will willingly take their bread and butter living and hand it to us for mere pennies per trip. So we can have a snooze on the way to work. I don't know, but I'm sceptical about this vision. It might happen, who can say, but I've seen little evidence to date of powerful commercial interests using the political system to make our working lives comfy and snug.


The move to cities is a global trend, not unique to Ireland. Again it is hard to see how or why Ireland would be able to buck this trend.

Whatever about moving to cities that was my guess but the self driving electric car is here and the government are subsidising them. No vrt ,free charging, half price tolls , grants etc. It's not a debate .

no.8

dor843088 wrote: »

Whatever about moving to cities that was my guess but the self driving electric car is here and the government are subsidising them. No vrt ,free charging, half price tolls , grants etc. It's not a debate .

Free charging will very soon be a thing of the past, and rightly so (according to majority of EC drivers here).
TBH, this vision of self-driving cars is possibly 2 decades away (imho). Some day, yes of course. If we can't sort out bus lanes, what makes you so confident that we can ensure safe operation of self-driving cars. We'll be one of the last to do this.
Besides, it will not necessarily solve grid-lock in the city centre, due to inefficiency of single-occupant vehicles (regardless of how they are powered or controlled).

Pussyhands

dor843088 wrote: »

11 years ago there was no such thing as a smartphone. 30 years ago I changed the channel on my 6 channel tv with a huge button on the front of it and nobody had a computer and those who bought in Swords were deemed to have moved to the countryside. 30 years is a hell of a long time.

Electric cars have been around 10 years or so and still very few have them and the infrastructure is not good enough.

Then you have accident rates. People are way more accepting of a human error than a computer error.

Bluefoam

Pussyhands wrote: »

Electric cars have been around 10 years or so and still very few have them and the infrastructure is not good enough.

Then you have accident rates. People are way more accepting of a human error than a computer error.

You seem to be mixing up electric cars and autonomous cars...

Pussyhands

Bluefoam wrote: »

You seem to be mixing up electric cars and autonomous cars...

??

OP said smartphones didn't exist X years ago.

I'm showing that there's technology that's seen as revolutionary nowadays that was available a decade ago and it wasn't mainstream in a year.

dor843088

Gone way off topic. My original point was through various technology transport and online jobs etc the need to live in a city will be greatly diminished. Sooner or later is anyone's guess.

Arthur Daley

dor843088 wrote: »

My original point was through various technology transport and online jobs etc the need to live in a city will be greatly diminished.

In theory.
In practice what we see are people continuing to move to Dublin in their droves. Traffic has been horrendous for the last year. Buildings are built along the quays at a rate that would embarrass Celtic Tiger bulls. Big tech itself is investing in D2/D4 and to some extent D1. Location, location, location seems to matter more than ever. For most people the EU itself has found that there is a very slow take up of real jobs working from home.

Villa05

Villa05 wrote: »

I'm struggling to understand your first point. The lower paid dont hit the higher rate of income tax
Many low paid jobs are hard graft. Have you ever worked in a hotel kitchen

USC should have been left alone for the reasons the conducted has outlined

for every low paid kitchen worker there's a few lads picking their arse behind a service station counter also on low wages but not breaking a sweat.

My first point is in clear reference to your €35k comment which you now seem to be forgetting you made.........in 2014 the Standard rate cut-off point for a single person was...€32,800, this is now €34,550 .......... this is proportionaltely of greater benefit to those on €35k ish than those on much more that was my point. I mentioned the recent budgets benefiting the lower paid.

I referenced USC as the very low paid benefited more proportionately from those changes than the higher paid, again you were the one who brought in the proportion view to the chat. Perhaps you now see you were wrong

Villa05 wrote: »

...................

You only have to look at his tax policies from his recent ard fheis. It only benefits those that are earning above 35k. The people earning below that get up earlier you know and most likely are trapped paying extortionate rent

Cyrus

Augeo wrote: »

for every low paid kitchen worker there's a few lads picking their arse behind a service station counter also on low wages but not breaking a sweat.

My first point is in clear reference to your €35k comment which you now seem to be forgetting you made.........in 2014 the Standard rate cut-off point for a single person was...€32,800, this is now €34,550 .......... this is proportionaltely of greater benefit to those on €35k ish than those on much more that was my point. I mentioned the recent budgets benefiting the lower paid.

I referenced USC as the very low paid benefited more proportionately from those changes than the higher paid, again you were the one who brought in the proportion view to the chat. Perhaps you now see you were wrong

the last thing left for us to do for the lower paid in income tax terms is to just exempt them completely, its no wonder the aim is to now reduce the rates paid by the cohort earning between 35-100k

Villa05

Augeo wrote:

My first point is in clear reference to your €35k comment which you now seem to be forgetting you made.........in 2014 the Standard rate cut-off point for a single person was...€32,800, this is now €34,550 .......... this is proportionaltely of greater benefit to those on €35k ish than those on much more that was my point. I mentioned the recent budgets benefiting the lower paid.

Being honest I didn't pay much heed to the 35k figure I quoted. To be more accurate the low paid would be below the median income figure which is around 30k

riclad

Most government departments are based in dublin, big tech companys are based in dublin .
I don,t see prices falling in dublin in the future.
People can buy things online, do tax returns etc i don,t think most
people cant work from home unless they are self employed ,
writers, designers , programmers etc
i don,t see the connection between self driving cars and house prices .
The reason why prices are not rising at the moment is maybe because
banks are following the rules re landing ratios ,eg you can just borrow 3 or 3.5 times your annual wage.

dor843088

riclad wrote: »

Most government departments are based in dublin, big tech companys are based in dublin .
I don,t see prices falling in dublin in the future.
People can buy things online, do tax returns etc i don,t think most
people cant work from home unless they are self employed ,
writers, designers , programmers etc
i don,t see the connection between self driving cars and house prices .
The reason why prices are not rising at the moment is maybe because
banks are following the rules re landing ratios ,eg you can just borrow 3 or 3.5 times your annual wage.

I'm not necessarily saying self driving cars will cause house prices in Dublin to go down. Just that they will make living outside Dublin far less hassle for commuters than it is now.

Moonjet

I'm in stitches laughing at the idea that new population centres will spring up in commuter towns with everyone's autonomous electric self-driving, self-charging car taking them to and from work in Dublin (then go off and park itself somewhere for the day) will happen any time soon.
For a start, there's a huge push to get cars out of the city centre and encourage public transport use. Also, people don't just travel into the city centre for work, a large cohort of people in Dublin city at any one time are there for education, shopping, leisure, entertainment, tourism etc. Or will they all live 100 miles away and have self-driving cars too?
Creating regular high speed trains like the TGV into Dublin would be far simpler and more effective at allowing people live in cheaper rural areas and working in the city centre.