Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Scythica

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/trailblazer-john-cooney-points-the-way-north-for-former-peers-1.3346170

Decent read, didn't really think about players commutting to their teams a such before

Paul Smeenus

prawnsambo wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Whether or not our defence woes are attributable to him, its hard to argue his selection hasn't been all over the shop.

Well if you cared to look at my table... ahem... you'd see that he's got no choice. Treadwell, Dalton and Diack are all unavailable leaving just the three that were selected.

Without wanting to go over old ground endlessly, the starting selection for Munster proves it more than this week. But yeah, I did post a mea culpa when i realised he had no other options.

Jump_In_Jack

prawnsambo wrote: »

Just updated the table of players from the latest squad announcement and have added some new information on injuries etc.

S = Start, B = Bench, U = Unavailable, (a) = Academy player.
Bold = Home, Red = Loss, Green = Draw.

Player|Pos|01/09|09/09|15/09|22/09|30/09|06/10|13/10|22/10|28/10|04/11|24/11|01/12|10/12|15/12|23/12|01/01|06/01
Opp||Che|Ben|Sca|Dra|Zeb|Con|Was|LaR|Lei|Kin|Ben|Dra|Har|Har|Con|Mun|Lei
Ah You|P|B|B|B|S|S|B|B|B|S|U|U|U|U|U|U|S|S
Andrew|H|B|B|B|B|S|B|B|||S|S|S|B|B|S|U|
Best|H|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|B|S|U|U|B|U|U|S|U|S
Black|P|B|S|||S||B|S|S|B|S|B|S|S||B|S
Bowe|W|S|S|B|S||S|B|S|S|B|S|S|S|U|U|U|B
Browne|L||B|||S|||U|||||||||S
Busby|W|||||||||||||||||
Cairns|SH|||||||||S||||||||
Cave|C|B|||S|S|||S||S|B||||S|S|S
Coetzee|No. 8|S|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Cooney|SH|S|S|S||S|S|S|B|U|S|S|B|S|S|S|S|B
Dalton (a)|L|||||||||||B|B|U|U|U|U|U
Deysel|F|S|S|U|U|S|S|S|U|S|U|U|U|U|U|U|S|S
Diack|L|S|S|B|S||B|S|B|B|B|U|U|U|U|S|B|U
Gilroy|W|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|U
Hall (a)|F|||||||||||S||||||
Henderson|L||||B|S|S|S|S|S|U|U||S|S|S|U|S
Henry|F|S|B|S|S||S||S|S|S|U|B|B|S|U|U|U
Herbst|P|S|S|S|B|B|S|S|S|U|S|U|U|S|S|S|B|B
Herring|H|S|S|S|S||S|S|S|B||B||S|S|U|S|B
Herron|OH||||B|||||||||||||U
Jackson|OH|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Jones (a)|F|||||||||||B|S|||S|S|
Kane|P|||||||||B|B|S|S|B|B|B||
Leali'fano|OH|S|S|S||S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S||S|S
Ludik|W|S|S|S||S|B|S||B|S|S|S|B|S|S|U|U
Lyttle|C||||B|B||||||||||B|S|U
Luke Marshall|C||B|S||S|S|S|B|S|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Paul Marshall|SH|||B|S||B|B|S|U||B|S|B|B|B|B|U
McBurney|H|||||B|||||B|||||S|B|U
McCall|P|S||S|S||S|S|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|S|B
McCloskey|C|S|S|S|S||S|S|S|S|U|U|S|S|S||S|S
McPhillips|OH|||||||||||||||B|B|B
Nelson|W|B|B|B|S|B|B|B||B|B|S|B|B|B|S||
O'Connor|L|S||S|S||S||S|S|S|S|S|S|S||S|B
O'Hagan|P|||||||||||||||||
Olding|C|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Owens|W|||||||||U||||||||
Patterson|C|||||||||||||||||
Payne|FB|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Piutau|FB|S|||S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S|S||S|S
Rea|L|B|S|S|B|S||B|B||S|||B|B|B|B|S
Reidy|F|B|S|S||S|B|S|S|S|S||S|S|B|S|U|S
Ross|F|||B|S|||B|||B|S||||S||
Shanahan|SH|B|B||B|B||||U||||||||
Simpson|P|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U
Stewart (a)|SH|||||||||B|B|||||||S
Stockdale|W||S|S|S||S|S|B|S|U|U||S|S|S|U|S
Timoney (a)|No. 8||||S|B||||U||S|S|S|S||S|B
Treadwell|L||S|S||B|S|S|S|B|S|S|S|S|S||S|U
Trimble|W|S|S|S||S|||S||S|B|B||B|S|B|S
Van der Merwe|P|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|U|B|S|||B||
Warwick|P||B|B|B|B|B||B|B|S|B|B|B|B|S||

Lyttle should be a W not a C

stephen_n

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Realistically who is available who would be on a par with Lealiifano.

This is the sort of scenario Ulster faced with Pienaar for his last contract. A season long injury for Pienaar would have been a disaster because there was no viable quality alternative within the setup. But it was the IRFU/Nucifora's fault. Now its Kiss getting the blame.

The people Ulster fans need to vent their anger at are not the ones involved in the senior side of the set up. The faults get exposed there but the real issue is everything before that doesnt seem to functioning.

Yes but if this was going to be the case, why not give any of the other options meaningful game time, rather than flog CL in every game possible. That’s Kiss’s Responsibility, I’d defend him a lot but his selections are not defensible.

Squidgy Black

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes but if this was going to be the case, why not give any of the other options meaningful game time, rather than flog CL in every game possible. That’s Kiss’s Responsibility, I’d defend him a lot but his selections are not defensible.

Because they've paid big bucks for CL to come in as emergency cover, why wouldn't they use him as much as possible to salvage their season?

If they were admitting defeat and taking this season as a write off then yeah, but they're still in a competitive spot for both Europe and the league

I have no idea what the point of resting CL would be at this point. When does he head back to Aus?

awec

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

I have no idea what the point of resting CL would be at this point. When does he head back to Aus?

After the last Euro game this month.

stephen_n

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Because they've paid big bucks for CL to come in as emergency cover, why wouldn't they use him as much as possible to salvage their season?

If they were admitting defeat and taking this season as a write off then yeah, but they're still in a competitive spot for both Europe and the league

So instead they will have no 10 who has played more than 80 mins of rugby this season. What season do you think they are salvaging? Assuming he continues playing CL for 80 mins in the next three games, none of the other options will have got any proper game time, that’s not prudent use of an asset.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

So instead they will have no 10 who has played more than 80 mins of rugby this season. What season do you think they are salvaging? Assuming he continues playing CL for 80 mins in the next three games, none of the other options will have got any proper game time, that’s not prudent use of an asset.

Yes it is. We’d be out of Europe and languishing in mid table, season dead in the water already if we hadn’t played CL.

Why on earth would we deliberately throw this entire season? We may as well not have signed CL at all by your logic, just throw some academy lad in and watch him magically morph from an unready youngster to a European 10 in the space of 5 months.

Ulster need another signing this season. McPhillips is not ready, the idea giving him game time would have made him ready is completely delusional.

thomond2006

Ye can argue this in person later.

bilston

I wouldn't just be asking questions of Kiss. I'd be looking at all the coaches. Even Gibbes and Peel. Tonight was totally unacceptable from all aspects of Ulster rugby.

Scythica

I'll try to be positive.
Would like to see more of Stewart and McPhilips for the rest of the season. Reidy seemed keen.
And now that that's over.
FOLK (and this is more of a general insult to Ulster management than LK himself)

bilston

Scythica wrote: »

I'll try to be positive.
Would like to see more of Stewart and McPhilips for the rest of the season. Reidy seemed keen.
And now that that's over.
FOLK (and this is more of a general insult to Ulster management than LK himself)

Stewart needs to speed things up, but he is worth persevering with, but he isn't ready to be starting a game like that, but now that it's over it will probably stand to him.

The only positive was McPhillips cameo. Tommy did well too but then wrecked himself.

The big players didn't step up at all.

Was Henderson even playing? What does Deysel do? Piutau had a nightmare defensively and Stockdale had his worst game ever for Ulster.

awec

Has he been booted out the door yet?

gally74

bilston wrote: »

Stewart needs to speed things up, but he is worth persevering with, but he isn't ready to be starting a game like that, but now that it's over it will probably stand to him.

The only positive was McPhillips cameo. Tommy did well too but then wrecked himself.

The big players didn't step up at all.

Was Henderson even playing? What does Deysel do? Piutau had a nightmare defensively and Stockdale had his worst game ever for Ulster.

Stockdale was pretty poor in connacht too. V poor in the first half

Stheno

gally74 wrote: »

Stockdale was pretty poor in connacht too. V poor in the first half

I don't think the last few matches have done him any favours

gally74

Stheno wrote: »

I don't think the last few matches have done him any favours

He's young. Will recover.

bilston

Stheno wrote: »

gally74 wrote: »

Stockdale was pretty poor in connacht too. V poor in the first half

I don't think the last few matches have done him any favours

In what sense. He still scored tonight and against Connacht he was playing FB and to be fair he was probably Ulster's biggest threat.

Sure he's old hat now! It's all about Jordan Larmour!

jacothelad

Imagine how Ulster's better players would have performed if they were part of the Leinster set up.
A set up with genuine competition for places.
A set up in which each player can be trusted to do the right thing 99% of the time because the work has been put in beforehand.
A set up in which the players are therefore fully invested.
A set up which doesn't as a rule hire the halt, the lame and the talent free.
A set up where the head guy was a great, uncompromising and intelligent captain who served under Schmidt and Cheika and has learned his part and earned the ultimate respect of his troops.
A set up which has recruited senior support coaching staff with real experience of the sharp end.
A set up in which the Chief Exec. isn't a spoofer.
A set up that makes young local rugby players want - no, desire - to perform and put in the work in order to get an academy place.
A set up in which the players work their socks off to attack or defend but don't check their brains into the cloakroom before the game.

None of the above really applies at Ravenhill. Lip service only.

I can't find a post I made a few years ago on UAFC (it has crashed) in which I detailed my fears for the future of U.R. as it was clear to see the moribund nature of the organisation. The crazily ineffectual structures, jobs for the boys etc.

The lack of interest shown by many young rugby players in staying in N.I. after school years was something that was and is bound to have a huge deleterious effect. (There are many reasons for this not least of which is a major societal change and this isn't the place to air it).

It seems, I have been informed by my main contact, that there is often little actual rugby coaching and drills and daily activity with the ball during training. Schmidt arrived at Leinster with a plan to make them the best handling side in Europe. He did and his legacy is still paying it's dues. It doesn't seem far fetched to me that while all the gym grunt has it's place and the Ulster guys do lots and lots in their lovely, shiny state of the art exercise palace, they might also benefit from being thrown the ball now and again. Some of them seem to have the ball control of Abu Hamza.

In April 2016 I suffered a cerebral haemorrhage stroke but I didn't lose the will to live despite what it initially did to my guitar playing. (No. it didn't make me better Thomond, I know what you're thinking ).

In April 2017 I needed major surgery for the removal of a tumour but despite the appalling memories in the I.C. unit and the awful cocktail of drugs that caused shocking hallucinations - some involving rugby - I still didn't lose the will to live.

In January 2018 I watched Ulster play Leinster. Will to live is in the post to Les .:D:D:D:D It's worse than the other stuff.

I think Kiss is more than probably an ineffective coach. We know that this is not the case with Gibbes. Peel has no experience but was a fine player.

Too many of the players are not capable of playing at a high performance plane at all or for any sustained periods of time. They seem like a bunch of fit guys but play like a bit of a rabble. The young guys we have seen look a likely bunch. Good for them to have hung in there and risen through the shyt to the surface. It can't have been easy.

The management structure is antiquated and a bunch of alickadoos have far, far, far too much input and exert a malign influence.

Feck it. It's not worth it. I'll be 69 this year, I've just started gigging again and enjoying life again. I have a room full of great guitars and enough gear to start a music shop. Life is too short for the angst caused by Ulster.

I'm off to the local pub for as many pints of craft I.P.A. that I can guzzle before my legs become as weak as Ulster's defence.

Burkie1203

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm off to the local pub for as many pints of craft I.P.A. that I can guzzle before my legs become as weak as Ulster's defence.

Off to the pub for a teaspoon of beer

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

Yes it is. We’d be out of Europe and languishing in mid table, season dead in the water already if we hadn’t played CL.

Why on earth would we deliberately throw this entire season? We may as well not have signed CL at all by your logic, just throw some academy lad in and watch him magically morph from an unready youngster to a European 10 in the space of 5 months.

Ulster need another signing this season. McPhillips is not ready, the idea giving him game time would have made him ready is completely delusional.

There is a huge difference between giving meaningful game time and dropping CL. You seem to be reading my posts and making up your own **** from it.


If McPhillips isn’t ready for 20 mins at the end of games, or to start against Dragons, Treviso or Zebre, then Ulster are totally screwed in 3 weeks time.


Thought he was very good tonight

jacothelad

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Off to the pub for a teaspoon of beer

Are you? Have you run out of funds?????:D I'll have a few just for you. (It would be a very small teaspoon)

Well if last night is any measure to go by it will be about 7 or 8 pints and perhaps a few glasses of Aberlour. The pub I was playing in last night near Banff in Aberdeenshire didn't have any Irish whiskey but Aberlour has a passing resemblance to Black Bush so it's pretty decent. My 'local' in my new village in Morayshire is really great but again doesn't have proper whiskey - only that Scotch muck . It sells a fabulous draught called Windswept. Yum.

stephen_n

One thing I’d say after tonight, despite the fact the players tackle like they’re playing tag. Jaco was right they do defend far too narrow (still think the line speed is the players fault), but there is far too much space left out wide and Leinster targeted that tonight. Can’t remember the last time we scored 5 tries out wide.

Was Kiss still in charge of the defence in the Argentinian game in 2015?

jacothelad

stephen_n wrote: »

One thing I’d say after tonight, despite the fact the players tackle like they’re playing tag. Jaco was right they do defend far too narrow (still think the line speed is the players fault), but there is far too much space left out wide and Leinster targeted that tonight. Can’t remember the last time we scored 5 tries out wide.

Was Kiss still in charge of the defence in the Argentinian game in 2015?

Yes. He didn't join Ulster until after the RWC was over.

Clegg

I thought Ulster were ok in the first half. They were outmatched up front but stayed competitive at least and didn't allow Leinster to have it all their own way.

The second half was a disaster and I can't understand how it disintegrated so badly for ye. Leinster have better forwards than Ulster bar the two obvious lads. But just because a pack is outclassed doesn't necessarily mean they should ship scores as easily as Ulster did. Seemed like they were going through the motions.

A big clear out is needed and half that pack needs to go. I don't care if they're not that good individually or if Kiss is a poor coach. There's a certain level of performance that's mandatory from them and they aren't meeting it. Falling off tackles and giving up huge ground again and again isn't just the coaches fault.

Bringing in Murphy is a good start. Gets criticised for being soft off the back of the World Cup loss to Argue. But that's a game where the whole pack was blown away. In reality he's a very good loose forward. Picks good lines and is a nuisance at the breakdown. Not a power carrier but he's just a part of what you need to have in a functioning pack.

Not sure about Moore though. I was very disappointed when Leinster lost him as he was turning into a good all round prop. Strong scrummager and decent in the loose. Would've been overtaken by Furlong eventually but that's down to him being a generational talent. But Moore's move to Wasps hasn't worked out. Not playing well.enough and seems to have packed on a few extra pounds. I hope he can sort him out as there's a good player in there.

stephen_n

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes. He didn't join Ulster until after the RWC was over.

Clearly didn’t learn much from that day so. You could see Leinster looking for it everytime they got the ball.

thomond2006

Much respect Jaco. Great post.

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm off to the local pub for as many pints of craft I.P.A. that I can guzzle before my legs become as weak as Ulster's defence.

I read this and I think I want to have Jaco's life when I retire....then I realise I want that life now at 34!

Sorry to hear of your health issues, Jaco. Glad you're posting after such a rough result and as articulate and opinionated as ever!

stl.ire

Honestly it hard to see any scenario where such an injury depleted and thin Ulster squad wouldn’t have got smashed by the current Leinster machine at the RDS. Maybe a great coaching team would have saved some embarrassment but we were always looking at a bad result.

The Connacht and Munster games have done Kiss. A Euro QF will get him to the end of the season but he’ll need some big wins in the 2nd half of the season to turn fans around and stay next year. Sad as it seems he’s a nice guy who just can’t cut it at the very top level.

Ulster are miles off Leinster but what’s so frustrating is that we’ve a squad that’s not far off Munster and yet performances are well below. As everyone outside Ulster likes to say: Ulster have major issues (bigger than any coach) that will need to be addressed to get trophies and beat a team like this Leinster one in their backyard. However right now Ulster fans can see a competently coached Munster with similar problems that Ulster face (maybe worse as Ulster have cash) and that is why Kiss will be gone.

awec

The best thing that could happen right now is if Les Kiss fcuks off somewhere else.

We are hopeless and I’ve had enough of it. I was embarrassed to congratulate the mexican fans sitting around me tonight, we offered absolutely nothing tonight.

Time to go Les. Failure after failure after failure.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

The best thing that could happen right now is if Les Kiss fcuks off somewhere else.

We are hopeless and I’ve had enough of it. I was embarrassed to congratulate the mexican fans sitting around me tonight, we offered absolutely nothing tonight.

Time to go Les. Failure after failure after failure.

And then what? You'll still have a load of ****e players or players who dont give a ****e and results wont suddenly change. Les may be part of the problem but getting rid of him wont change too much if players are putting in displays like they are and messing up the basics

CIARAN_BOYLE

jacothelad wrote: »

I can't find a post I made a few years ago on UAFC (it has crashed) in which I detailed my fears for the future of U.R. as it was clear to see the moribund nature of the organisation. The crazily ineffectual structures, jobs for the boys etc.

Uafc following ur down the drain?

awec

If I was Iain Henderson I'd be away tomorrow. He'll never win a trophy at Ulster, why waste your career at a bunch of perennial losers?

stl.ire

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And then what? You'll still have a load of ****e players or players who dont give a ****e and results wont suddenly change. Les may be part of the problem but getting rid of him wont change too much if players are putting in displays like they are and messing up the basics

Yes, we are well aware Ulster have many deep systematic problems to sort out if they want to win trophies. But guess what? In many ways so do Munster and Connacht. A decent coach won’t fix the back room issues but a decent coach might stop us being humiliated 3 weeks in a row. Can we not ask for that?

Squidgy Black

The thing is though, if you turf Les out now, realistically what decent coach is going to want to take over? Halfway through the season, with players who seem uninterested, no 10 (that we're aware of) and fans/a board with a reputation for turning over coaches for not getting results.

As much as everyone wants Les gone, pulling him mid-season when you're still in the champions cup and still in contention for a playoff spot in the league, personally I'd say cross your fingers for a miracle that'll somehow manage to get you through the season and then try get a decent coach in.

Upheaval halfway through won't end well.

Larbre34

Give Gibbes sole charge lads, he knows a thing or two. He and Kiss appear to be at cross purposes. God help ye when CL departs

Synode

awec wrote: »

If I was Iain Henderson I'd be away tomorrow. He'll never win a trophy at Ulster, why waste your career at a bunch of perennial losers?

I was thinking the same thing at the match today about Stockdale. Imagine the difference between being in Ireland camp and Ulster training. Must be painful.

I wonder what Joe thinks about Ulster. And where the problem lies

bilston

You are all forgetting that Henderson and Stockdale are born and bred Ulstermen. Maybe they won't give up the fight so easily. Maybe they want to stay and be successful with the province they grew up dreaming of playing for.

The Lost Sheep

stl.ire wrote: »

Yes, we are well aware Ulster have many deep systematic problems to sort out if they want to win trophies. But guess what? In many ways so do Munster and Connacht. A decent coach won’t fix the back room issues but a decent coach might stop us being humiliated 3 weeks in a row. Can we not ask for that?

But what coach is going to want to take over? Halfway through the season, with players who dont seem to give a **** especially many supposedly "senior" players? It'll take a lot more than a change in coach to stop the humiliation. A lot of that is down to players not doing anywhere near enough and while plenty of blame can go on the head coach etc players have to do a lot more. can ulster fans not ask for that and not simply fool themselves into thinking the coach is the main issue

stl.ire

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But what coach is going to want to take over? Halfway through the season, with players who dont seem to give a **** especially many supposedly "senior" players? It'll take a lot more than a change in coach to stop the humiliation. A lot of that is down to players not doing anywhere near enough and while plenty of blame can go on the head coach etc players have to do a lot more. can ulster fans not ask for that and not simply fool themselves into thinking the coach is the main issue

Gibbes or some interim would coach the rest of the season. Ulster would probably pick up more defeats in the 2nd half of the season but it would show the upper management are at least reacting to these performances and young players could be blooded. Once we are out of Europe the season is competitively over anyway so why keep a under performing dead-man-walking head coach? And I say that as someone who likes Kiss.

A half decent coach would shake up the players mentally. Ulster’s squad is not great but it’s not as bad as these performances or as some would like to make out.

Ulster can attract a good coach. If Cardiff are supposedly leading candidates for Chris Boyd of the Hurricanes then Ulster would be a good destination for someone.

irishbucsfan

Who is Ulster's CL replacement, did anyone find out who it was?

Rumours of Giteau.

Pretty much has to be a ten from Japanese league no?

prawnsambo

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Lyttle should be a W not a C

He's listed on the Ulster site as a centre. So I decided to go with that rather than where he's played currently. A bit like Garry Ringrose playing wing in his first season for Leinster.

Bazzo

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's listed on the Ulster site as a centre. So I decided to go with that rather than where he's played currently. A bit like Garry Ringrose playing wing in his first season for Leinster.

I can't speak to earlier but he's been a back 3 player through and through for the Irish u20s and Ulster senior side afair.

Utah_Saint

Deleted User wrote: »

Rumours of Giteau.

Pretty much has to be a ten from Japanese league no?

Yeah, or Donald

Buer

Gibbes is responsible for the most underperforming area of the team. I've no idea why people would want him in charge particularly given he's never been top man before.

Utah_Saint

Buer wrote: »

Gibbes is responsible for the most underperforming area of the team. I've no idea why people would want him in charge particularly given he's never been top man before.

We are a forgiving bunch and willing to give him more time. Although I must admit that I am very disappointed with what I've seen so far. The forwards look worse than ever.

awec

Two more defeats in a row the most likely outcome for the next two weeks, it’s hard to see how we beat La Rochelle with their first team playing or Wasps away.

Things are going to get pretty unpleasant.

In league terms our next two are not too bad, the kings and Edinburgh at home. We go away to the Scarlets during the six nations, we’ll have almost a full deck as we’re not going to be contributing much to Ireland, the scarlets should have a good few out so we might sneak that one.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

Gibbes is responsible for the most underperforming area of the team. I've no idea why people would want him in charge particularly given he's never been top man before.

I would definitely be asking questions of Gibbes and Peel as well.

awec

Kiss seems to have confirmed that we have signed a NIQ 10 for the rest of the season.