GPs not taking on patients - how's that even legal?

milhous

GPs don't just refuse to take on new patients whether GMS or private for the craic, both are profitable. The problem is a shortage of GPs.
There is a shortage for numerous reasons, one being the demand and pressure they're under is making it an unattractive position, this is made worse by the free GP care schemes that are being rolled out.
The other is the fempi cuts during the recession that were not reinstated making it financially unattractive too.

I think I'd be complaining about investment in primary care instead of giving out about GPs who are up to their tits in work trying to look after their overbooked practise as it is.

Sleeper12

I'd imagine that the GP is thinking that it's not just one patient. I'd imagine they'd be worried or at least taking into account that you might have children under 6. The free GP card for under 6 years old is choking up GPs waiting rooms.

Fann Linn

milhous wrote: »

GPs don't just refuse to take on new patients whether GMS or private for the craic, both are profitable. The problem is a shortage of GPs.
There is a shortage for numerous reasons, one being the demand and pressure they're under is making it an unattractive position, this is made worse by the free GP care schemes that are being rolled out.
The other is the fempi cuts during the recession that were not reinstated making it financially unattractive too.

I think I'd be complaining about investment in primary care instead of giving out about GPs who are up to their tits in work trying to look after their overbooked practise as it is.

Nail on head. I believe the village of Frenchpark and its environs in Roscommon has no doctor since the other GP retired. This has resulted in the above population having to attend Castlerea, Boyle or Ballaghaderreen. Due to overstretched GPs in these towns already the situation as the op describes is not that unlikely to occur. Throw in all those free medical cards for children and gp only cards and the problem is exacerbated.
Something GPs predicted would happen.

Dr Brown

Del2005 wrote: »

GPs get an annual payment for each medical card holder on their books. So no matter how many times a medical card holder visit they do not get any extra money and medical card holders go to the doctor way more often than non holders. If I ring my GP I will get an appointment for the next day as I don't have a medical card, if my brother rings he gets one next week due having a medical card.

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

Stheno

I just read in the info that d doc have suspended their services as they are overwhelmed

pc7

If you are stuck at a weekend can’t recommend here high enough. I’d a sick little one and d doc we’re giving me an awful run around (not their fault they were busy), but paid and was seen in this place within the hour. I paid, I’d rather pay and get a good service than a free crap one. Meant I could get antibiotic as chemist still open. I’m no way affiliated with this place just used it and if I need a doc for me I’d use it, wouldn’t bother with d doc.
Weekend doctor
http://www.nassau.ie

Chiparus

Dr Brown wrote: »

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

And the fact that people buy health insurance to jump the queue.

We have a two tier health system, it needs to change.

thereality

OP your GP is not taking on patients, as it has a ton of patients like you on their book. If your child has a flu, what good is a GP for them unless they have serious underlying health issue? GP surgeries are full everyday of the week with people feeling entitled that they should see a GP instantly for a non-emergency or for an issue that a GP can't help them with. If you had an issue that warranted urgent medical attention, you would have seen a GP today.

There is zero benefit bringing a child to a GP with a flu. They will literally tell you to go to a pharmacy to get an OTC remedy and plenty of fluids. It is a viral infection, that antibiotics etc don't work on. If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. They have surgeries full of OAPs and under 5s who are not sick. I know a GP who saw several children one day, whose parents sent them to school. But still brought them to the GP as they were sick. The parents did not see that if their child was well enough to go to school, it was not sick enough to see a GP...

pc7

thereality wrote: »

If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. .

Agree with you on free gp care. Nothing should be totally free as it’s not appreciated properly and open to abuse. Even a €2 -€5 fee, something handed over makes it a service that would make people think a little first.
And A&E do charge €100 for kids even with gp card unless you’ve a letter. But it’s free if you’ve a medical card.

splinter65

RasTa wrote: »

Get onto RTE or some rag newspaper. They will carry this story. Should get an appointment then

RTÉ can appoint you to a GP

Chiparus

thereality wrote: »

OP your GP is not taking on patients, as it has a ton of patients like you on their book. If your child has a flu, what good is a GP for them unless they have serious underlying health issue? GP surgeries are full everyday of the week with people feeling entitled that they should see a GP instantly for a non-emergency or for an issue that a GP can't help them with. If you had an issue that warranted urgent medical attention, you would have seen a GP today.

There is zero benefit bringing a child to a GP with a flu. They will literally tell you to go to a pharmacy to get an OTC remedy and plenty of fluids. It is a viral infection, that antibiotics etc don't work on. If you bring your child to A&E with a flu, I seriously hope they charge you the €150 fee and tear shreds off your for as they can't help you with a common ailment.

Free GP visit cards have been a disaster for GPs. They have surgeries full of OAPs and under 5s who are not sick. I know a GP who saw several children one day, whose parents sent them to school. But still brought them to the GP as they were sick. The parents did not see that if their child was well enough to go to school, it was not sick enough to see a GP...

Can you tell the difference between meningitis and flu in a child?

Stoner

strandroad wrote:

Are you a medical card patient? They may have quotas on MC.

I rang oaklawn medical center today to make an appointment. They have a message service, you know the ones, press 1 for opening times, press 2 for reception etc.

They state right at the start that
"Unfortunately we are not taking new patients"

That's without speaking to me or asking if I was a MC holder etc

splinter65

tkrysiak wrote: »

Happy New Year everyone !!!

As my username suggests, I am one of the Slav barbarians that have invaded Ireland nearly two decades ago. Dublin is home and has been one for a looong time now, my kids will know no other. Over the years I thought that I have come to understand everything there was about my new home but Today I got a shocker...

...wanted to book a GP visit but all GPs in Skerries refused to take on a new patient (LOL?) Now, do not get me wrong I do understand that GPs are under pressure and that they can be booked for a few days straight but to straight down refuse a new patient all together? Not sure if a doctor in India, China or Africa would even think of saying that to someone seeking a medical attention.

I have done a bit of research and it seems roughly 25% of Irish doctors follow such practice. That's even more shocking!

Are Irish doctors exempt from Hippocratic Oath?

How is that even allowed to happen? I would like to hear some insight, mostly from people involved with medical professions. My engineer's brain fails to process some logical issues at times and that is one such occasion.

tl;dr: WTF? How's that even possible?

Not enough GPs in the country OP.
Who would want to be a GP?
Not me.
Oh the money’s great but your head would be wrecked.
Since they gave free cover to under 6s and over 70s it’s been bedlam. No more then it’s not illegal for your local restaurant to say “Sorry! All booked tonight!” It’s not illegal either for a GP to say “Sorry! Full!”.

thereality

Chiparus wrote: »

Can you tell the difference between meningitis and flu in a child?

Yes. Do you not remember the non-stop ads in the 90s and 00s that show children with meningitis dislike bright lights and use the glass test to see if the spots/rash go away?

If people feel the need to go to their GP everytime their child has a sniff or a high temperature just to be safe, we need to offer more health classes

tricky D

@suckit do not post in this thread again. Posts removed.

Helpful answers pls.

Wesser

A gp is a private contractor just like any other. They can choose to refuse business if they want.
Say for example you had a job for a plumber, you call a plumber and he says I'm sorry I'm booked out until summer time. Or an architect. Or whatever private contractor you want to put in. I recently tried to hire an architect and he just said sorry not taking any more bookings full up.

A gp is a human being just like everyone else. They have kids and families and lives. Sure you say.... but I just need 10 mins..... it won't take a second.....but that what everyone wants..... just a second.... along with under 6 s overrflowing and paper work paper work paper work all overflowing+++++ so the doctor goes from finishing work at 8pm to finishing at 10pm..... then the doctor becomes angry and frustrated and more likely to make mistakes and more likely to burn out and quit..... then there's 1 less doctor. .....


There is not enough gp s in ireland we are short approx 600 gp s. Little by little the people are going to see the effect . Why are there so few doctors in Ireland? Poor working conditions, work overload and poor pay. They can get much better conditions in Australia or Canada. Of course I'm referring to the medical card contract .... not the private work..... which is well paid. A medical.card allows for unlimited work for a fixed fee. In some cases its 40 euros a year for one medical ard patient. For unlimited visits!!!! Would a plumber agree to that? Unlimited work for a fixed fee? Not a chance!!!

Unfortunately even though you are not a medical card patient....the underfunding of GP for many years with 40 % cuts to funding jn the recession is slowly slowly driving young GP S out . It's affecting you even though it's not your fault and you are not a medical card patient.

It certainly not illegal.for him.or her to say No, and is within medical council guidelines. Hippocratic oath is not relevant here, it is only relevant to an immediate life threstening illness and is not something that you should unfairly dangled over a doctor who is exhausted.

Hope your feeling better by the way.

Chiparus

thereality wrote: »

Yes. Do you not remember the non-stop ads in the 90s and 00s that show children with meningitis dislike bright lights and use the glass test to see if the spots/rash go away?

If people feel the need to go to their GP everytime their child has a sniff or a high temperature just to be safe, we need to offer more health classes

Non blanching rashes and dislike of bright lights are inconsistent and often late signs of meningitis, the most common feature is flu like symptoms.

BTW influenza also kills children.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/girl-8-dies-of-flu-in-melbourne-hospital-20170917-gyjdml.html
But you think anyone who brings their child to A&E with flu should be charged €150 and have shreds torn off ?

Cedrus

Car99 wrote: »

What would you say is a reasonable amount of time to travel to see a GP?

It's not just the time, but how easily you can get to the doctor when you are really sick.
I've had to call a taxi in the past because I was't able to drive. Once with a double ear infection that totally messed up my sense of balance and a couple of times when I was so drowned with colds that I'd have a better chance driving home from the pub with a skinful (not that I would). I would be a different kind of sick if the taxi to and from the surgery cost more than the doctor.

imme

Do you think that all the doctors in Skerries are discriminating against you OP.
That's the way your opening post goes.

Can your former doctor refer you to a new GP?
Can you see your old GP?

Any GP practice that I am familiar with are generally busy.
I don't understand how all that you have approached have refused you as a patient.


As an aside how would I know that you are from Eastern Europe from your username.

Del2005

Dr Brown wrote: »

The media should expose the fact that medical card holders are treated as second class patients.

I doubt that my doctor is unique so the media already knows.

The doctor has to have appointments available for paying patients so maybe the fact that people who pay rarely visit the doctor means that they have more slots available for them, as opposed to the medical card holders who go to the doctor more often. If they don't have paying patients then the medical card holders will have no doctor. At the end of the day the doctor needs to make a profit and with the medical card that's impossible

listermint

Wesser wrote: »

A gp is a private contractor just like any other. They can choose to refuse business if they want.
Say for example you had a job for a plumber, you call a plumber and he says I'm sorry I'm booked out until summer time. Or an architect. Or whatever private contractor you want to put in. I recently tried to hire an architect and he just said sorry not taking any more bookings full up.

A gp is a human being just like everyone else. They have kids and families and lives. Sure you say.... but I just need 10 mins..... it won't take a second.....but that what everyone wants..... just a second.... along with under 6 s overrflowing and paper work paper work paper work all overflowing+++++ so the doctor goes from finishing work at 8pm to finishing at 10pm..... then the doctor becomes angry and frustrated and more likely to make mistakes and more likely to burn out and quit..... then there's 1 less doctor. .....


There is not enough gp s in ireland we are short approx 600 gp s. Little by little the people are going to see the effect . Why are there so few doctors in Ireland? Poor working conditions, work overload and poor pay. They can get much better conditions in Australia or Canada. Of course I'm referring to the medical card contract .... not the private work..... which is well paid. A medical.card allows for unlimited work for a fixed fee. In some cases its 40 euros a year for one medical ard patient. For unlimited visits!!!! Would a plumber agree to that? Unlimited work for a fixed fee? Not a chance!!!

Unfortunately even though you are not a medical card patient....the underfunding of GP for many years with 40 % cuts to funding jn the recession is slowly slowly driving young GP S out . It's affecting you even though it's not your fault and you are not a medical card patient.

It certainly not illegal.for him.or her to say No, and is within medical council guidelines. Hippocratic oath is not relevant here, it is only relevant to an immediate life threstening illness and is not something that you should unfairly dangled over a doctor who is exhausted.

Hope your feeling better by the way.

Just a question.

Does a gp have to take medical card holders ? If yes is there a limit?

Wesser

No. A gp is a private contractor who may choose to take a medical card contract with the hse...or not.

Most GPs do as it gives them an everyday bread and butter reliable income with which to pay staff and provides a basuc salary.

Within that contract a a gp can choose whoever they wish to take on to their list, from 1 to......i don't know the limit.... most gp s take on a few hundred.... but of course the more you take on later you get home every night....

Very occasionally the Hse find themselves in a situation where all local gps are refusing to take a patient who is entitled to a medical card... this is usually where a patient is known to be aggressive or abusive and in this situation the patient can be allocated to a GP s list without the GPs consent. Most gp s have approx 10 of these patients.

lucernarian

thereality wrote: »

Yes. Do you not remember the non-stop ads in the 90s and 00s that show children with meningitis dislike bright lights and use the glass test to see if the spots/rash go away?

If people feel the need to go to their GP everytime their child has a sniff or a high temperature just to be safe, we need to offer more health classes

This is a fairly silly way of looking at it. There's any number of good reasons that a GP attendance would be warranted. The system for emergencies is supposed to be in an acute treatment hospital with an A&E, the clue is in the name...

And since when is it better to put symptoms in the hands of Google or the likes when it takes a doctor to make a call? There's any number of threads in e.g. the LTI forum where people are told to talk to a doctor and not have conversations about mild symptoms or issues.

Totally agree with you on the problem of making it a free for all the way they have.

Dr Brown

Wesser wrote: »

A gp is a private contractor just like any other. They can choose to refuse business if they want.

Most GP's are funded by the state so they are not "private contractors".

Why are there so few doctors in Ireland? Poor working conditions, work overload and poor pay.

Poor pay are you for real ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/21-gps-get-500k-from-medical-card-fees-30410935.html

A medical.card allows for unlimited work for a fixed fee. In some cases its 40 euros a year for one medical ard patient. For unlimited visits!!!! Would a plumber agree to that? Unlimited work for a fixed fee? Not a chance!!!

I was told that GP's get 300Euro for each medical card patient.

Thats not bad money for patients who only go to the doctor about once a year.

Wesser

Yes they are private contractors. They can choose to take a contract with the state or not. Most gp do choose to take on this contract but not all do. They are not state employees. They are contractors.

500 is not going to one gp. That would be split between several GPS. Also auxilarry staff such as nurses receptionists also mortgage on the property heat light electricity software licence etc etc etc. The amount they are paid depends in how well they run their business but they are not getting 500k for sure. That s a payment to their business... but them individually.


Medical card payments vary.... the least being 40 e a year and the most being 300 e a year...depending on the patients age and sex. Studies show that when patients have a medical card they attend an average of 8 times a year .

Topgear on Dave

Dr Brown wrote: »

Most GP's are funded by the state so they are not "private contractors".


Poor pay are you for real ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/21-gps-get-500k-from-medical-card-fees-30410935.html

Of course they can be a private contractor and be paid by the state.

The top earner in that article got 827k but it was a practice of about 9 doctors so its a fairly big organisation when support staff are included.

"The practice, headed by Dr Austin O'Carroll, has around nine doctors who care for a panel of 2,500 medical card patients. The income figures are also increased by the service his team provide to the homeless in 11 outreach clinics.

The sum of €827,658 includes yearly capitation fees for patients as well as additional payments such as practice expenses, grants for hiring staff as well as study or annual leave.

Its not the pay per doctor. Id say the sums are more complicated.

827k divided between 9 doctors shows the practice earning somewhere about 90k per doctor but this would be gross, the expenses would need to come out of it.

If that 825k pays to cover all the visits for the 2500 MC patients that is about 330 euro paid per patient by the HSE to cover all the trips for the year but the cost of the 11 outreach clinics have to be accounted for too so its likely even less.

bisset

If you are refused by a certain number of GP's in your area the HSE can order a GP practice to take you on.

.......

This post has been deleted.

splinter65

listermint wrote: »

Just a question.

Does a gp have to take medical card holders ? If yes is there a limit?

No. Plenty of doctors see only private patients.

splinter65

....... wrote: »

I don't believe this is true for private patients.

No you’re correct.
If you have a medical card and you’ve moved and you can’t get a practice to take you on, you email/write medical cards with the names of 3 practices that have refused you.
You are then referred to a team that will assign you a GP.
Takes at least 3 weeks.