GPs not taking on patients - how's that even legal?

Dr Brown

Wesser wrote: »

Medical card payments vary.... the least being 40 e a year and the most being 300 e a year...depending on the patients age and sex.

so not all medical patients are equal ?

Studies show that when patients have a medical card they attend an average of 8 times a year .

Do you have a link for that study ? I have a medical card and would never go to the GP more than 4 times in any given year and I have a long term illness.

Fann Linn

Dr Brown wrote: »

so not all medical patients are equal ?

Do you have a link for that study ? I have a medical card and would never go to the GP more than 4 times in any given year and I have a long term illness.

Of course they're not equal. Some have medical cards, some have private health insurance, and others have nothing.

calfmuscle

Gp practices are private companies/sole traders.
The hse pays a very small yearly allowance for medical card patients which results in most gp's making very little profit /working as a charity for these patients.
Gp's are being over run with free care for under 6's and its now having a direct impact on their availability to take on new patients.
Gp's have to keep some slots each week to facilitate their current patients having serious and sudden problems.
Sorry for being a robot but this is reality. Gp's are not public servants but people expect them to act as one. It's really unfair!

Dr Brown

Fann Linn wrote: »

Of course they're not equal. Some have medical cards, some have private health insurance, and others have nothing.

I meant to say medical card patients.

Wesser

Yes topgear. Thank you for your post. People think it is very black and white. There's your salary. It's actually very complex and every gp business is different.

Yes bisset. Your right. It's not true for private patients. I was simply responding to a question asked.


Fundamentally my point is that Irish GPS are working at their absolute limit. There is no capacity left in the system. This means that increasingly we are going to see people in situations like this. Even though the op is not a medical card patient...she is being affecting by chronic underfunding by the HSE.

And it's not just a question of money. I feel sorry for Irish GPS too... their working conditions are not great.... their patients in waiting 2 years for a simple scan.....watching their patients in constant agony...inadequate psychological and mental health services...patients languishing on waiting lists for years.....

Ps I am not a gp but I am highly
Involved in the sector.

Wesser

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/how-are-gps-coping-with-free-care-for-under-6s-1.2606707?mode=amp

Here is a link. It's actually six visits a year, not eight, so i stand corrected. But it's definitely not an average of one visit for 300euro. Which was my original point


Not you're right. Not all medical card patients are equal . Rates of pay per annum are determined by the hse, not the gp, andvary depending on age and sex.

fritzelly

Probably doesn't help that when a doctor turns 65 or 70 (depending) they can no longer have medical card holders on their books, so their offloaded onto other already busy practices if he's by himself

Unless that has changed recently...

Dr Brown

fritzelly wrote: »

Probably doesn't help that when a doctor turns 65 or 70 (depending) they can no longer have medical card holders on their books, so their offloaded onto other already busy practices if he's by himself

Unless that has changed recently...

I see a medical card GP whos in his 70s.

fritzelly

Dr Brown wrote: »

I see a medical card GP whos in his 70s.

Can only find this old post from 2009
http://www.politics.ie/forum/health-social-affairs/108188-restrictions-lifted-gp-gms-contracts.html

Jellybaby1

Just saw the OP now. This happened to me some years ago on Dublin south side. The doc said she was not taking on any more medical card px, however I insisted that I didn't have a medical card and would be paying cash, but she just kept saying 'we are not taking any more medical card patients'. I repeated several times, that I do NOT have a medical card but she kept repeating her rejection. I assumed it was because (a) she was stone deaf and couldn't hear me, or (b) when she took my address she just assumed I was a medical card patient! I still don't have a flippin' medical card!

L1011

Dr Brown wrote: »

I meant to say medical card patients.

Yes, doctors are paid different amounts based on a guess of how often the patient might attend on an average for their age, sex and whether they're in a care home.

The payment for adult men below middle age is about 45 quid a year.

Your GP in his 70s is either not as old as you think he is or is an employee of another GP who holds the contract

witchgirl26

I know my GP's practice isn't taking on any new patients (except partners or children of existing) purely because they can only just cope with what they have on their books at the moment. For emergencies they'll ask if you'd be happy to see a nurse if you're not a patient on the books to help & they run a walk in clinic that one doctor does each day where you don't have to be a patient but that's it. There's 4 GPs & a nurse in the practice.

I think the problem in some areas is that a large number of new estates were built and the population has increased quite a bit and while services like shops may have popped up to support this, other things like GP surgeries have not and they can't see everyone.

OP would you be able to travel back to your former GP? To be honest, mine is the other side of the city from where I live but I'm sticking with them as I've been with the practice since I was a child so they know my full history and I know I can get an appointment. It's worth the 30 min drive.

Dr Brown

L1011 wrote: »

Yes, doctors are paid different amounts based on a guess of how often the patient might attend on an average for their age, sex and whether they're in a care home.

The payment for adult men below middle age is about 45 quid a year.

Your GP in his 70s is either not as old as you think he is or is an employee of another GP who holds the contract

well the prescriptions my GP writes are in his sons name whos also a Doctor.

Wesser

So it might not be him who has the medical card contract
It might be his son.
Anyway this is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand and it seems you are arguing for the sake of it....

L1011

Dr Brown wrote: »

well the prescriptions my GP writes are in his sons name whos also a Doctor.

His son is employing him and receiving the payment from the state in that case. Legit once the employed GP is still registered, insured and has valid Continuing Medical Education credits.

snowleopard7

I’m a GP who left general practice after the pressure reached a point where I was simply not able to be available to the patients I had committed to at the level they expected. I was getting requests to take on new patients when I knew had no more time. I was working very long hours seeing patients and then spending 2-4 hours a day doing admin. The U6 contract came in and my U6 attendance increased by 70%. People think that what we do is a menial and easy job and they do not care if you have a family or any other commitments. I got tired of the disrespect and the entitlement. I got tired of people confusing their Google search with my medical degree. I got tired of never hearing a thank you and I got tired of worrying about the possibly being sued when every day I was doing my very very best. I got tired of people abusing the staff and telling me how to do my job. Pushing for an appointment from an exhausted doctor who has seen 40 people that day and has told you they cannot cope is shameful. Doctors do not owe you anything and they do not wave the white flag of overwork unless it’s a real problem. We are human. We make mistakes, have kids, get upset, have to eat, get sick and need to rest. Just like you. So when I realised that my best was just not good enough I changed jobs. I have 2 GP friends currently doing the same. I have 6 GP friends who trained with me in Ireland and are now in Australia. No matter how much you think you know and how important you think you are all of that means nothing if you cannot get a good doctor to help you when you are genuinely ill. As a culture we need to take a good look at our attitude and behaviour towards our doctors - as the posts above show most people do not understand the complexity of the GMS system and do not understand the amount of responsibility a doctor takes on with every patient they see. One mistake and you are in court on your own. So next time you can’t get a doctor to give you an appointment you can take that as an indication of just how difficult it is not only for patients but for GP’s.

Dr Brown

snowleopard7 wrote: »

. I got tired of people confusing their Google search with my medical degree.

Just because you have a medical degree doesn't mean you know everything.

I find the problem with alot of Doctors is that they refuse to admit they don't know what the cause of a patients illness is and will just put them on antidepressants to shut them up.

After alot of online research I was able to find out what my illness was simply by the process of elimination.

But when I went to my Doctor with a peer reviewed study that indicated I may have X condition they would not even read the infomation I put in front of them and just dismissed it out of hand and said I had "depression".

After 2 years and many hospital visits later it turned out I did have X condition.

If my GP had of listened to me in the first place it would of saved the HSE alot of money instead of going down dead end roads.

Doctors need to start treating their patients with more respect.

Listening to their patients concerns costs nothing.

The relationship between most Doctors and patients is like a parent and child relationship were the Doctor is always right no matter what.

Chiparus

snowleopard7 wrote: »

I’m a GP who left general practice after the pressure reached a point where I was simply not able to be available to the patients I had committed to at the level they expected. I was getting requests to take on new patients when I knew had no more time. I was working very long hours seeing patients and then spending 2-4 hours a day doing admin. The U6 contract came in and my U6 attendance increased by 70%. People think that what we do is a menial and easy job and they do not care if you have a family or any other commitments. I got tired of the disrespect and the entitlement. I got tired of people confusing their Google search with my medical degree. I got tired of never hearing a thank you and I got tired of worrying about the possibly being sued when every day I was doing my very very best. I got tired of people abusing the staff and telling me how to do my job. Pushing for an appointment from an exhausted doctor who has seen 40 people that day and has told you they cannot cope is shameful. Doctors do not owe you anything and they do not wave the white flag of overwork unless it’s a real problem. We are human. We make mistakes, have kids, get upset, have to eat, get sick and need to rest. Just like you. So when I realised that my best was just not good enough I changed jobs. I have 2 GP friends currently doing the same. I have 6 GP friends who trained with me in Ireland and are now in Australia. No matter how much you think you know and how important you think you are all of that means nothing if you cannot get a good doctor to help you when you are genuinely ill. As a culture we need to take a good look at our attitude and behaviour towards our doctors - as the posts above show most people do not understand the complexity of the GMS system and do not understand the amount of responsibility a doctor takes on with every patient they see. One mistake and you are in court on your own. So next time you can’t get a doctor to give you an appointment you can take that as an indication of just how difficult it is not only for patients but for GP’s.

Well put, the recent issue in Kerry where a radiologist was seeing 3 times the number scans that he should have , and as a result made mistakes - the result HSE fired him and reported him to the medical council.

Chiparus

Dr Brown wrote: »

Just because you have a medical degree doesn't mean you know everything.

I find the problem with alot of Doctors is that they refuse to admit they don't know what the cause of a patients illness is and will just put them on antidepressants to shut them up.

After alot of online research I was able to find out what my illness was simply by the process of elimination.

But when I went to my Doctor with a peer reviewed study that indicated I may have X condition they would not even read the infomation I put in front of them and just dismissed it out of hand and said I had "depression".

After 2 years and many hospital visits later it turned out I did have X condition.

If my GP had of listened to me in the first place it would of saved the HSE alot of money instead of going down dead end roads.

Doctors need to start treating their patients with more respect.

Listening to their patients concerns costs nothing.

The relationship between most Doctors and patients is like a parent and child relationship were the Doctor is always right no matter what.

If you have to see 40 patients a day , it does.

I agree, GPs need to see fewer patients. and spend 1/2 hour with each patient , the could see 5 or 6 patients a day that way.

But You won't get an appointment for 4-6 weeks.

splinter65

Chiparus wrote: »

If you have to see 40 patients a day , it does.

I agree, GPs need to see fewer patients. and spend 1/2 hour with each patient , the could see 5 or 6 patients a day that way.

But You won't get an appointment for 4-6 weeks.

There’s no respect for GPs at all amongst patients who don’t have to pay.
It’s like anything else that you get for nothing.
It’s worthless.
I dread going to my GP despite having some serious conditions because of the embarrassing whining and moaning out of the waiting room.
These patients don’t care that you have other patients. They don’t even see your other patients in the waiting room.
It’s all me me me.

Dr Brown

Chiparus wrote: »

If you have to see 40 patients a day , it does.

I agree, GPs need to see fewer patients. and spend 1/2 hour with each patient , the could see 5 or 6 patients a day that way.

But You won't get an appointment for 4-6 weeks.

If the Doctor doesn't listen to their patients then how can they diagnose them ?

You don't need half an hour 10 to 15 mins would be enough if the Doctor is willing to listen to the patient.

Jellybaby1

snowleopard7 wrote: »

I’m a GP who left general practice after the pressure reached a point where I was simply not able to be available to the patients I had committed to at the level they expected. I was getting requests to take on new patients when I knew had no more time. I was working very long hours seeing patients and then spending 2-4 hours a day doing admin. The U6 contract came in and my U6 attendance increased by 70%. People think that what we do is a menial and easy job and they do not care if you have a family or any other commitments. I got tired of the disrespect and the entitlement. I got tired of people confusing their Google search with my medical degree. I got tired of never hearing a thank you and I got tired of worrying about the possibly being sued when every day I was doing my very very best. I got tired of people abusing the staff and telling me how to do my job. Pushing for an appointment from an exhausted doctor who has seen 40 people that day and has told you they cannot cope is shameful. Doctors do not owe you anything and they do not wave the white flag of overwork unless it’s a real problem. We are human. We make mistakes, have kids, get upset, have to eat, get sick and need to rest. Just like you. So when I realised that my best was just not good enough I changed jobs. I have 2 GP friends currently doing the same. I have 6 GP friends who trained with me in Ireland and are now in Australia. No matter how much you think you know and how important you think you are all of that means nothing if you cannot get a good doctor to help you when you are genuinely ill. As a culture we need to take a good look at our attitude and behaviour towards our doctors - as the posts above show most people do not understand the complexity of the GMS system and do not understand the amount of responsibility a doctor takes on with every patient they see. One mistake and you are in court on your own. So next time you can’t get a doctor to give you an appointment you can take that as an indication of just how difficult it is not only for patients but for GP’s.

I certainly can understand what you say, and may be the answer to the OP and in my case I would have been ok with the GP telling me that they couldn't take on any more px but not for turning me down because she assumed I was a MC px when I was not. I must have been turned down because of my address. I can't add any further to this so I shall exit this thread now.

Chiparus

Dr Brown wrote: »

If the Doctor doesn't listen to their patients then how can they diagnose them ?

You don't need half an hour 10 to 15 mins would be enough if the Doctor is willing to listen to the patient.

It should be 1/2 an hour.
To listen and do a proper examination.Anything shorter than 15 minutes is probably too short.

What was your condition if you don't mind me asking?

splinter65

Dr Brown wrote: »

If the Doctor doesn't listen to their patients then how can they diagnose them ?

You don't need half an hour 10 to 15 mins would be enough if the Doctor is willing to listen to the patient.

Some patients sit down in the doctors office and talk non stop for 15 minutes about their social issues.
What should the doctor do , tell them to be quiet ?

fritzelly

Chiparus wrote: »

It should be 1/2 an hour.
To listen and do a proper examination.Anything shorter than 15 minutes is probably too short.

What was your condition if you don't mind me asking?

Last time I was in the doc's many years ago he took 5 mins to tell me what I knew (tonsillitis), prescribed some drugs and sent me packing counting the 50 euro (or punts then).
Two weeks later the process was repeated after diagnosing I still had tonisllitis in 2 minutes, sent packing 50 quid worse off again.
Ended up going to the hospital to have the largest needle injection I've ever seen (couldn't even talk at this point as my jaw was almost totally locked up) - even the nurse said you don't want to watch this going in - few days later was pretty much gone. Suffered nearly a month of tonsillitis, eating thru a straw, due to bad judgement by a doctor
That's my experience of doctors in Ireland and not one I want to repeat, even less so these days

screamer

Isn't there an online GP service. TBH I think it's going that way anyhow. I'd hate to be trying to get a second opinion when you can't even get a first one. As for people with medical cards or doctor visit cards I agree they choke up doctors surgeries cause they don't have to shell out 60 euro a time and don't want to shell out the 3 euro for a bottle of calpol when the doctor can prescribe it for free. It's high time a nominal fee was introduced to curtail this ridiculous behaviour and exhorbitant cost and as I've said before make entrance to medicine less elitist. That's a huge problem too in the supply of doctors.

Dr Brown

splinter65 wrote: »

Some patients sit down in the doctors office and talk non stop for 15 minutes about their social issues.
What should the doctor do , tell them to be quiet ?

They should only be talking to their Doctor about their medical condition.

Dr Brown

screamer wrote: »

Isn't there an online GP service. TBH I think it's going that way anyhow. I'd hate to be trying to get a second opinion when you can't even get a first one. As for people with medical cards or doctor visit cards I agree they choke up doctors surgeries cause they don't have to shell out 60 euro a time and don't want to shell out the 3 euro for a bottle of calpol when the doctor can prescribe it for free. It's high time a nominal fee was introduced to curtail this ridiculous behaviour and exhorbitant cost and as I've said before make entrance to medicine less elitist. That's a huge problem too in the supply of doctors.

That dosen't make much sense anything they get on the medical card will cost E2.50.

Nobody is going to queue to see a Doctor just to save 50cent.

Del2005

Dr Brown wrote: »

Just because you have a medical degree doesn't mean you know everything.

I find the problem with alot of Doctors is that they refuse to admit they don't know what the cause of a patients illness is and will just put them on antidepressants to shut them up.

After alot of online research I was able to find out what my illness was simply by the process of elimination.

But when I went to my Doctor with a peer reviewed study that indicated I may have X condition they would not even read the infomation I put in front of them and just dismissed it out of hand and said I had "depression".

After 2 years and many hospital visits later it turned out I did have X condition.

If my GP had of listened to me in the first place it would of saved the HSE alot of money instead of going down dead end roads.

Doctors need to start treating their patients with more respect.

Listening to their patients concerns costs nothing.

The relationship between most Doctors and patients is like a parent and child relationship were the Doctor is always right no matter what.

For every 1 patient that manages to find the correct diagnosis from the Internet a doctor has to listen to hundreds with the completely incorrect diagnosis. So unfortunately it's the other patients to blame not the doctor.

Dr Brown

Del2005 wrote: »

For every 1 patient that manages to find the correct diagnosis from the Internet a doctor has to listen to hundreds with the completely incorrect diagnosis. So unfortunately it's the other patients to blame not the doctor.

The Doctor is to blame when they won't listen to the patient and try and blame all their health problems on "depression" which they don't even have.