Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Most neglected Irish region
Comments
-
Matt Barrett wrote: »This is scandalous. We should put forward or elect public representatives of some sort to tackle this. Maybe one such individual will try make a name rooting out these blaggards?
Or we can do nothing, point to this alleged group for steering national economic policy in the wrong direction despite the valiant equal opportunity led efforts of government :rolleyes:
FYI: It's people becoming dependent on the state due to the direct policies perpetrated by the state that's the problem, not people deciding to sit this one out, (and for some reason authorities allegedly turning a blind eye, if this is to be believed) but hey we need people outside of government to blame for failed government policies right, (the sick, the poor, parties on 2% in the polls)?
I didn't blame the people involved for inter-generational social welfare dependency. Some of it is cultural, some of it is failed government policy and over-generous entitlements, some of it is laziness etc. More research is needed in Ireland to determine the reasons behind it, as my post on the international experience shows.0 -
Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.0
-
realdanbreen wrote: »Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.
There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.0 -
There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.
The topic is about neglected Irish regions and you are relating that neglect to climate change? We could turn off the power in Ireland for a year and leave every vehicle on the side of the road and it wouldn't amount to half a days production in China or India ! Apart from that the gridlock around Dublin on a daily basis is far more damaging than anything happening in rural Ireland.0 -
There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.
There is an environmental cost to urban living. A rural dweller could have solar panels and a small windmill and be largely energy independent and would use no more water than fell on their own property. The urban dweller will have energy and water shipped from a long distance away.0 -
Advertisement
-
Charles Babbage wrote: »There is an environmental cost to urban living. A rural dweller could have solar panels and a small windmill and be largely energy independent and would use no more water than fell on their own property. The urban dweller will have energy and water shipped from a long distance away.
Unfortunately, unless that rural dweller is living in a self-sustaining manner off the land, doesn't get a postal or telecommunications service, doesn't have a rod to their property and doesn't own any vehicle other than a push-bike, then that simply isn't true.
Now, I am not arguing that city living is currently sustainable but if we are to maintain current world population levels, our only option is sustainable urban living. That means a lot of changes to how we live and work in urban areas, but it means an end to rural living except for those who work on the land.0 -
...it means an end to rural living except for those who work on the land.
...and if they want roads, electricity, telecoms, post, medical treatment etc, they can get stuffed. Why should those things be available to someone who chooses to provide the country with food security?
I can't see this thread being any different from all the other stupid threads on this topic. City dwellers will bitch about rural dwellers; rural dwellers will bitch about city dwellers. Some people will claim that it's vitally important that everyone move to the nearest city (or to just one city) as soon as possible, while not bothering to explain how such a thing is anything other than risible in practical terms.
The really annoying thing about these stupid discussions is that we had a perfectly good plan in the NSS back in the day, and what looks like a pretty decent plan in the NPF, to create relatively sustainable (meaning not the disaster we have now, and also not pie-in-the-sky stuff like everyone living in high-rise blocks in one megacity with their own compost heaps) development - but those plans never get implemented, because they're opposed by the megacity advocates on the one hand, and the "every regional town should have a fully-equipped hospital complete with emergency department" on the other.
If we spent less time resentful of everyone who doesn't choose to live exactly like ourselves, and more time working on making the best of what we have, we'd be a better society - but being resentful of others seems to come more easily, so we are where we are.
It's depressing, frankly.0 -
I didn't blame the people involved for inter-generational social welfare dependency. Some of it is cultural, some of it is failed government policy and over-generous entitlements, some of it is laziness etc. More research is needed in Ireland to determine the reasons behind it, as my post on the international experience shows.
You are stating that some people, a large enough amount to effect state progress, are welfare dependent by choice and not necessity?
Yes we do need research into this as some may mistake this alleged anecdotally national level fraud, allegedly, large enough to detrimentally effect the economy, as a reason for the worsening societal crises when it may, god forbid, be poor policy making and we miss it. And were are the Dept. of welfare in all this? Wasn't there a campaign relatively recently?
Generations of the same family fooling the authorities? Fraudulent doctor certs, not being able to find work for decades? How many of these people are there? Certainly warrants investigating before using it anecdotally to 'prove' a viewpoint.
Funny how these problems become worse as we follow the same policies. And how the economy is growing in tandem. I'm sure welfare fraud plays a role but citing it in discussions about failing government/LA policy by region might be a bit of a stretch.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »You are stating that some people, a large enough amount to effect state progress, are welfare dependent by choice and not necessity?
Yes we do need research into this as some may mistake this alleged anecdotally national level fraud, allegedly, large enough to detrimentally effect the economy, as a reason for the worsening societal crises when it may, god forbid, be poor policy making and we miss it. And were are the Dept. of welfare in all this? Wasn't there a campaign relatively recently?
Generations of the same family fooling the authorities? Fraudulent doctor certs, not being able to find work for decades? How many of these people are there? Certainly warrants investigating before using it anecdotally to 'prove' a viewpoint.
Funny how these problems become worse as we follow the same policies. And how the economy is growing in tandem. I'm sure welfare fraud plays a role but citing it in discussions about failing government/LA policy by region might be a bit of a stretch.
How about reading the research I linked to and addressing the points I actually made.
I never said anyone was fooling the authorities nor fraudulent doctor certs etc. Why are you making things up?0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.
Your fine with it now, and I totally understand that.
But come back to me when you need urgent cardiac care or other similar medical problems.0 -
Advertisement
-
oscarBravo wrote: »...and if they want roads, electricity, telecoms, post, medical treatment etc, they can get stuffed. Why should those things be available to someone who chooses to provide the country with food security?
Giving the food they produce away free for the good of the country are they?
No. Actually their businesses get massive subsidies too.0 -
Topgear on Dave wrote: »Your fine with it now, and I totally understand that.
But come back to me when you need urgent cardiac care or other similar medical problems.
I can't say that I have ever seen an auctioneer pointing out the close proximity of a specialist cardiac unit as a selling point!0 -
testaccount123 wrote: »Giving the food they produce away free for the good of the country are they?
No. Actually their businesses get massive subsidies too.
So do many urban bus routes.
Like I said: stupid discussion is stupid. If begrudgery was a cash crop, we'd be the richest nation on the planet.
ACD posted a link to an Economist article in another thread, which contained a parable of a man to whom God offered anything he wanted, with the caveat that his neighbour would receive the same but doubled. After much soul-searching, he asked God to remove one of his eyes.
The same attitude prevails in discussions of social housing: it's never a conversation about "what's good for society?" so much as "why should those people get something for nothing?". The same approach has informed past threads about prisons, where some posters unabashedly expressed the view that prisons should be focused on harsh punishment rather than rehabilitation. They genuinely didn't care whether or not this would make society safer; they were prepared to risk their own (and everyone else's) safety, if that was the price for watching criminals suffer.
Yes, rural dwellers get to enjoy advantages that city dwellers don't. Yes, city dwellers get to enjoy advantages that rural dwellers don't. Yes, there's a net transfer of wealth from Dublin to the regions - but transfers of wealth are a feature of society, and wealth transfer happens because it makes for a better society than if it didn't.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »So do many urban bus routes.
Like I said: stupid discussion is stupid. If begrudgery was a cash crop, we'd be the richest nation on the planet.
ACD posted a link to an Economist article in another thread, which contained a parable of a man to whom God offered anything he wanted, with the caveat that his neighbour would receive the same but doubled. After much soul-searching, he asked God to remove one of his eyes.
The same attitude prevails in discussions of social housing: it's never a conversation about "what's good for society?" so much as "why should those people get something for nothing?". The same approach has informed past threads about prisons, where some posters unabashedly expressed the view that prisons should be focused on harsh punishment rather than rehabilitation. They genuinely didn't care whether or not this would make society safer; they were prepared to risk their own (and everyone else's) safety, if that was the price for watching criminals suffer.
Yes, rural dwellers get to enjoy advantages that city dwellers don't. Yes, city dwellers get to enjoy advantages that rural dwellers don't. Yes, there's a net transfer of wealth from Dublin to the regions - but transfers of wealth are a feature of society, and wealth transfer happens because it makes for a better society than if it didn't.
That isn't the argument, the argument is about sustainability both economically and environmentally.
If Ireland doesn't urbanise and take advantages of the savings in costs, both public and private, then it will lose out in competition for FDI to those countries that do.
If Ireland doesn't eliminate one-off housing and long-distance commuting, then Ireland will never meet climate change targets.
It isn't about begrudgery, it is about building a sustainable future. Hopefully, the forthcoming NDP will have the vision to concentrate development in the cities.0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »Except its not just rural Donegal, its basically the whole county as in intra-County travel.
Anyone who has travelled the A5 between Aughnacloy to Strabane or Derry would understand with how this route single handedly is the biggest blocker to development in Donegal.
At least a single strategic route is needed, never mind random roads.
Well good luck trying to get the Irish taxpayers to improve a road in another country!!
There needs to be improvements in the road from Galway - Sligo - Letterkenny.0 -
How?If Ireland doesn't eliminate one-off housing and long-distance commuting...
You want to "eliminate one-off housing" - that requires, by definition, that everyone who doesn't live in an urban housing development move to one.
We don't have enough houses for our current population, but you believe that we should abandon a substantial percentage of our existing housing stock and (at a minimum) double the demand for non-existing high-density urban housing?
You can't just say something utterly vacuous like "we should eliminate one-off housing"; it's a triumph of ideology over pragmatism. It's like saying "we should eliminate money" - it's. not. going. to. happen, no matter how strongly you feel it needs to be done.
We've had this discussion before. When asked how we should force people to abandon their one-off homes and move to cities they don't want to live in, you refused to answer. If all you have is an ideology and no idea how to achieve it, what the hell are you contributing other than a sermon?0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »How?
You want to "eliminate one-off housing" - that requires, by definition, that everyone who doesn't live in an urban housing development move to one.
No it doesnt.
It means that someone building 1 house on 1 acre of land should be discouraged.
They can build 10 houses on 2 acres which gives everyone plenty of garden space and room but then infrastructure is much simpler.
One road
One bus stop
Post is easier to deliver
Density of houses allows for a community to develop
Broadband and Power are cheaper and easier to install
Sewage and water supply is cheaper and easier to install
The problem with this is that people want to build their own house their own way.0 -
On the other topic that was raised in the thread about people on long term inter generational welfare. The government needs to just put the matter to bed and release some statistics.
Some basic stats should be very easy to gather.
The below stats should be gathered
1. Total number of people who claimed social welfare.
2. Total number of people on social welfare for greater than 52 weeks throughout their whole life to date.
3. Break this result down into age brackets ie. 18-25, 26-30, 30-35 etc and list the average number of lifetime weeks on social welfare.
When these stats are gathered and you see a low average for all the groups then we know its not a wide spread problem.
If you see a very high average then its obviously a problem.0 -
How about reading the research I linked to and addressing the points I actually made.
I never said anyone was fooling the authorities nor fraudulent doctor certs etc. Why are you making things up?
I asked was it that case you were putting forward and if so how has it been possible.
Based on this, a fair query;.....
Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.
There is a growing dependent class. It's you and I and our neighbours.
Your post read to me like you were accusing a sizable amount of people as purposefully availing of state aid, by choice, hence the question.
I'm suggesting it's more to do with bad policy, home and abroad, creating the public's need to rely on state aid in various forms, all in the goal of profit making, that often doesn't benefit broader society.
This lends itself to regions being neglected for things like broadband because there isn't enough incentive profit wise.0 -
That's not "eliminating"; it's "discouraging", and it has already been largely done: it's orders of magnitude harder to get permission to build a one-off house now than it was a couple of decades ago.BrokenArrows wrote: »It means that someone building 1 house on 1 acre of land should be discouraged.
So, if that's all that's required, can we please shut up about it in every single urban/rural thread?0 -
Advertisement
-
This thread seems to have become an urban vs rural debate (I'm using the word debate word kindly), but that's not the question posed. The OP asked which region was the most neglected which is a very different question. Certainly the Northwest and the Southeast would both like a university, but by not having one which is being more neglected? Indeed, are they being neglected at all? I'm often reading of towns of 10k people that don't want to travel half an hour to the next town to get hospital treatment, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're being neglected.
I'm from Waterford and would certainly feel the Southeast has a claim to the most neglected region in Ireland. I heard today that our mobile Cath lab is closing and the whole cardiac services issue is a perfect one to illustrate the neglect of the region (and why we get neglected actually). Apparently, one of the criteria used to determine whether or not your area warrants having 24 hour cardiac care is whether or not you have a population of approx. 500k. Now, taking the HSE figure of how many people UHW serves (for cancer treatment services) we're slightly over that at 505k or so (it might be slightly higher). So you'd think we meet the criteria to get a second cath lab and 24 hour care? No! They did an "independent" report which looked at whether or not we required a second cath lab based on current use. The significance of "based on current use" was that it left out all of those people who are closest to UHW, but currently being sent to other hospitals. I believe Kilkenny send their patients to James even though Waterford is far closer, so the report included 25% of Kilkenny's population. I would assume one of the reasons patients would be sent elsewhere is because UHW can't care for all of the people in the region.
But I suppose the point of outlining why the lack of cardiac care in the Southeast is ridiculous is because by just about any measure it was warranted. The Southeast has 1 9-5 cath lab in Waterford which is supposed to care for 280k people as per their report ignoring about 40% of the people in the area. Dublin has about 20 cath labs. Cork has 5 I think and Limerick and Galway have 2 or 3 each. All 4 other centres have more than 1 which means that an emergency can come in and they can still treat patients and all other centres have all others have 24 hour care which means that if you have a heart attack out of office hours you have a much better chance of surviving. A figure constantly quoted is that you need to be within 1 and a half hours of a cath lab to have the best chance of survival after a heart attack. Donegal is linked in to Northern Ireland so have this for most of the county. Sligo is outside of it for a lot of people. But by far the largest population outside of this crucial proximity to a centre is the Southeast. Most of Wexford is outside of it and a lot of Waterford's population. Add to that the fact that when someone is feeling unwell they'll probably be brought to the nearest hospital and have to be moved from there. Couple that to the distance from the hospital and the number of people who aren't going to get treatment within the crucial hour and a half timeframe increases dramatically again.
The main reason the government doesn't provide a second cath lab for the area is that the political pressure isn't there. The region is fragmented in itself and can't get behind developments in other counties. Basically no politicians from outside of Waterford did anything to support cardiac care for their region. The government managed to portray it as a local issue rather than a regional one because Wexford and Carlow / Kilkenny and South Tipp didn't do anything in the campaign. The Wexford politicians absolutely sicken me because their constituents are probably the most affected by it.
The cath lab isn't the only example of regional neglect. Waterford IT have campaigned for University status for longer than I've been alive. If it had it you'd have university education within commuting distance for hundred's of thousands more people. But there's no appetite to upgrade the IT. Unemployment was highest in the Southeast during and after the recession but the region seemed to be last to receive attention. And overall - look at Waterford city. I'm 31 and when I was born it was considerably bigger than Galway. Over my lifetime that has reversed. The region has not received the same investment as others in that time and has not really grown as a result. And now instead of it having a proper hub where people can hope to work after college, we have a small city and medium sized towns (KK, Carlow, Wexford). There's a severe lack of employment prospects in the Southeast outside of the public sector.
But the 2nd cath lab in the southeast is probably the best example of regional neglect I can think of. So the Southeast is my answer, but I'd be curious to read about where people think I'm wrong or where else you think is more neglected!0 -
Dr_serious2 wrote: »What countries are already showing us that rural living is doomed?
Westmeath, Cavan, Monaghan, Laois0 -
what is urban and what is rural in an Irish context. are small to medium irish towns rural or urban? if you live in castlebar for example are you an urban or a rural dweller?
i know people who live in castlebar consider themselves urban but when posters talk about future increased urbanization, are they talking about moving more people from the general castlebar area in to the town or are they talking about moving the whole show to galway.
i'm taking about the irish context here compared to the likes of china Dublin is a small town let alone castlebar.0 -
farmchoice wrote: »what is urban and what is rural in an Irish context. are small to medium irish towns rural or urban? if you live in castlebar for example are you an urban or a rural dweller?
i know people who live in castlebar consider themselves urban but when posters talk about future increased urbanization, are they talking about moving more people from the general castlebar area in to the town or are they talking about moving the whole show to galway.
i'm taking about the irish context here compared to the likes of china Dublin is a small town let alone castlebar.
The question posed was about regions in the OP, not urban / rural. You can discuss what urban means to everyone, but it's clearly not the question being raised.
I find it an interesting question, but it seems impossible for people not to get sidetracked into urban/rural or Dublin/country.0 -
This thread seems to have become an urban vs rural debate (I'm using the word debate word kindly), but that's not the question posed. The OP asked which region was the most neglected which is a very different question. Certainly the Northwest and the Southeast would both like a university, but by not having one which is being more neglected? Indeed, are they being neglected at all? I'm often reading of towns of 10k people that don't want to travel half an hour to the next town to get hospital treatment, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're being neglected.
I'm from Waterford and would certainly feel the Southeast has a claim to the most neglected region in Ireland. I heard today that our mobile Cath lab is closing and the whole cardiac services issue is a perfect one to illustrate the neglect of the region (and why we get neglected actually). Apparently, one of the criteria used to determine whether or not your area warrants having 24 hour cardiac care is whether or not you have a population of approx. 500k. Now, taking the HSE figure of how many people UHW serves (for cancer treatment services) we're slightly over that at 505k or so (it might be slightly higher). So you'd think we meet the criteria to get a second cath lab and 24 hour care? No! They did an "independent" report which looked at whether or not we required a second cath lab based on current use. The significance of "based on current use" was that it left out all of those people who are closest to UHW, but currently being sent to other hospitals. I believe Kilkenny send their patients to James even though Waterford is far closer, so the report included 25% of Kilkenny's population. I would assume one of the reasons patients would be sent elsewhere is because UHW can't care for all of the people in the region.
But I suppose the point of outlining why the lack of cardiac care in the Southeast is ridiculous is because by just about any measure it was warranted. The Southeast has 1 9-5 cath lab in Waterford which is supposed to care for 280k people as per their report ignoring about 40% of the people in the area. Dublin has about 20 cath labs. Cork has 5 I think and Limerick and Galway have 2 or 3 each. All 4 other centres have more than 1 which means that an emergency can come in and they can still treat patients and all other centres have all others have 24 hour care which means that if you have a heart attack out of office hours you have a much better chance of surviving. A figure constantly quoted is that you need to be within 1 and a half hours of a cath lab to have the best chance of survival after a heart attack. Donegal is linked in to Northern Ireland so have this for most of the county. Sligo is outside of it for a lot of people. But by far the largest population outside of this crucial proximity to a centre is the Southeast. Most of Wexford is outside of it and a lot of Waterford's population. Add to that the fact that when someone is feeling unwell they'll probably be brought to the nearest hospital and have to be moved from there. Couple that to the distance from the hospital and the number of people who aren't going to get treatment within the crucial hour and a half timeframe increases dramatically again.
The main reason the government doesn't provide a second cath lab for the area is that the political pressure isn't there. The region is fragmented in itself and can't get behind developments in other counties. Basically no politicians from outside of Waterford did anything to support cardiac care for their region. The government managed to portray it as a local issue rather than a regional one because Wexford and Carlow / Kilkenny and South Tipp didn't do anything in the campaign. The Wexford politicians absolutely sicken me because their constituents are probably the most affected by it.
The cath lab isn't the only example of regional neglect. Waterford IT have campaigned for University status for longer than I've been alive. If it had it you'd have university education within commuting distance for hundred's of thousands more people. But there's no appetite to upgrade the IT. Unemployment was highest in the Southeast during and after the recession but the region seemed to be last to receive attention. And overall - look at Waterford city. I'm 31 and when I was born it was considerably bigger than Galway. Over my lifetime that has reversed. The region has not received the same investment as others in that time and has not really grown as a result. And now instead of it having a proper hub where people can hope to work after college, we have a small city and medium sized towns (KK, Carlow, Wexford). There's a severe lack of employment prospects in the Southeast outside of the public sector.
But the 2nd cath lab in the southeast is probably the best example of regional neglect I can think of. So the Southeast is my answer, but I'd be curious to read about where people think I'm wrong or where else you think is more neglected!
The shenanigans over the past week or so re the Mortuary at UHW and Leo's intervention provide further proof, if proof were needed, that the Southeast is the most neglected region in the country. Of course most of the national media completely missed the real story here, too busy Leo-bashing, that story being an old story; the ongoing institutionalised neglect by the permenant government of the Southeast region generally and Waterford as it's capital specifically.
The mortuary at UHW should have been replaced years ago but despite planning & funding green lights, the Dublin-centric HSE and the Cork-centric South/Southwest Hospital Group don't really want to develop University Hospital Waterford as the major acute regional hospital for the Southeast that it is supposed to be. We've already seen this attitude with the ongoing 'lack of a 24/7 cath lab at UHW' scandal. The coverage in national media again failing to tie this in with the mortuary story coverage - failing to join the dots....
The same institutional stonewalling by the Dept of Education, lobbied by Dublin & Cork based Universities has seen Waterford's decades-long campaign to have a University for the Southeast, driven up Cul-de-sacs, strangled at birth etc.(Dublin's got yet another Uni in Grangegorman while Waterford/the Southeast wait on..)
Same goes for Waterford Airport which, if developed to reach it's potential, would be a growth engine for the entire Southeast...but...but... it might pose a threat to state assets in Dublin, Cork & Shannon so even Minister Ross' announcement, finally, of support for the runway extension at Waterford Airport, having dragged it out for 2 years+, I'll not be holding my breath.
The Southeast region has not just been the most neglected region for decades under every government, but based on its 500k+ population, I would argue that it is the most actively disenfranchised region per capita, constantly loosing out or just getting crumbs in favour of its neighbouring regions i.e. Greater Dublin and the Southwest i.e. Cork. It should be a rich region like it's next door neighbours but they've ensured its more like the border region, the midlands or the West(except for politically-favoured Galway city).0 -
Dr_serious2 wrote: »It's evident to me from reading boards that people from several parts of the country feel left behind by successive governments. In fact, I think I have seen people from every region (except South Dublin and the commuter belt) claiming to be the most disadvantaged.
Here in the west we feel somewhat hard done by, although I feel the Midlands has a similar case. Many in Donegal, Waterford and North-Inner City Dublin, amongst others, also feel that they have suffered from a lack of investment.
So which part of the country has been forgotten by the elites in Dublin?
Dublin
Suffers from serious under investment in infrastructure and housing...
And again today we see the government signing off on a multiple billion contract for broadband connections to one off developments... A 'deal' which will see urban users of broadband levied the same as the lad at the end of a boreen...
Heartbreaking really0 -
The broadband thing gets on my goat every time there's politicians on about it. There's plenty in Dublin who have not yet been visited by private, or public, fibre and they're on the end of sub par broadband. And because they're in Dublin they won't be on the plans for any of the rural schemes so are basically left waiting for Virgin Media to invest in their area.0
-
Why hasn't every eir cabinet in Dublin got fibre? No brainer surely?0
-
Harry Palmr wrote: »Why hasn't every eir cabinet in Dublin got fibre? No brainer surely?
you'd have to ask eir*
law unto themselves
* you wouldn't get an answer0 -
Advertisement
-
Harry Palmr wrote: »Why hasn't every eir cabinet in Dublin got fibre? No brainer surely?
Even if every cabinet has, which most probably do, it's of no use if you're still on copper lines.0
Advertisement