Uber

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

Gotcha. Pre-agreed, same as Uber. Should we ban hackneys and limos to "protect the consumer from high prices that they agree to pay"?

No but Uber should be subject to the same regulations, driver licensing, vehicle standards, insurance etc. if the NTA don't allow a release on hackney licenses in 2020 then take it up with them

Spook_ie

n97 mini wrote: »

I've read both articles you've linked to. The title of one is misleading. The article text says they're making surge pricing more transparent. I see nothing wrong with that.

There's actually three links but i assume these are the two points you are referencing.

They're not making it more transparent, they are hiding it, in that instead of a big warning you just get a higher fare and a semi concealed warning

They second confuses me. They're allegedly quoting higher prices, but the actual price charged is lower. Not sure what people are complaining about.

You're misreading it, the customers in some circumstances, are paying more for a quoted fare than they would if they went as a "normal" Uber fare, they can't tell, only the driver can tell because they only get paid the metered fare as decided by the apps GPS function. If in Ireland then the legal position is that the lower of the two, metered fare or pre booked fare, is the one to be charged.

If you don't like Uber, use a different ride-sharing company, there are plenty of them out there.

Yeah, you can even use an NTA licensed SPSV and know where you stand legally rather than what the management of a company decide.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

No but Uber should be subject to the same regulations, driver licensing, vehicle standards, insurance etc. if the NTA don't allow a release on hackney licenses in 2020 then take it up with them

So let's agree to drop the issue of surge pricing. Hackneys, Limos, and taxis do it to one extent or another.

makeorbrake

Spook_ie wrote: »

There's actually three links but i assume these are the two points you are referencing.

They're not making it more transparent, they are hiding it, in that instead of a big warning you just get a higher fare and a semi concealed warning

You're misreading it, the customers in some circumstances, are paying more for a quoted fare than they would if they went as a "normal" Uber fare, they can't tell, only the driver can tell because they only get paid the metered fare as decided by the apps GPS function. If in Ireland then the legal position is that the lower of the two, metered fare or pre booked fare, is the one to be charged.

There are a couple of ways that can be handled. It can be outright banned as a practice. The regulator can create the right conditions so that ride sharing services are commonplace - in which case, people will end up using other ride sharing services.
Other than that, if there are already taxis knocking around, then what's the concern re. surge pricing? Won't taxis be cheaper - or will they not? There has to be a happy medium between regulatory intervention and market forces. Personally, in this market where I'm based, I simply wouldn't pay surge pricing - I'd walk take a bus or whatever else. Ultimately, that practice led me to find InDriver - and it's a rare day when I end up using Uber now. There's plenty not to like about Uber - and plenty they should be body-checked on. However, that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath-water (and doing away with ride sharing generally on the back of that is a mistake).

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah, you can even use an NTA licensed SPSV and know where you stand legally rather than what the management of a company decide.

The customer ultimately decides - but as per his point, you can simply select another ride sharing service.

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

So let's agree to drop the issue of surge pricing. Hackneys, Limos, and taxis do it to one extent or another.

They dont do it by increasing the meter rate as hackneys and limos cant have taximeters in use, legally taxis can't do it at all.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

They dont do it by increasing the meter rate as hackneys and limos cant have taximeters in use, legally taxis can't do it at all.

Why is important whether its a meter or an imagined one in the driver's head when he sets the rate? It's a distinction without a difference which you're clinging on to because you've been backed into a corner.

Taxis do it. Price goes up evenings and weekends.

Spook_ie

makeorbrake wrote: »

There are a couple of ways that can be handled. It can be outright banned as a practice. The regulator can create the right conditions so that ride sharing services are commonplace - in which case, people will end up using other ride sharing services.
Other than that, if there are already taxis knocking around, then what's the concern re. surge pricing? Won't taxis be cheaper - or will they not? There has to be a happy medium between regulatory intervention and market forces. Personally, in this market where I'm based, I simply wouldn't pay surge pricing - I'd walk take a bus or whatever else. Ultimately, that practice led me to find InDriver - and it's a rare day when I end up using Uber now. There's plenty not to like about Uber - and plenty they should be body-checked on. However, that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath-water (and doing away with ride sharing generally on the back of that is a mistake).

The customer ultimately decides - but as per his point, you can simply select another ride sharing service.

Would taxis be cheaper , possibly, how would a customer know? maybe he can go back to where he got an Uber then take a Lyft or whatever and then he'll be able to compare the price, or of course he could just stick with plain old maximum fare regulations.

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

Why is important whether its a meter or an imagined one in the driver's head when he sets the rate? It's a distinction without a difference which you're clinging on to because you've been backed into a corner.

Taxis do it. Price goes up evenings and weekends.

Because a metered rate is subject to a maximum fares order, Uber use the GPS on the smartphones as a taximeter, if they set their GPS rates to match the maximum fares order (and find someway to ensure they are calibrated and stay calibrated i.e not some software download that can be installed and removed at will) and then don't charge above the maximum fares order then they'd get far less stick.

n97 mini

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah, you can even use an NTA licensed SPSV and know where you stand legally rather than what the management of a company decide.

That's the one I won't use. Too expensive, and the quality of the drivers and vehicles is way too variable.

Spook_ie

n97 mini wrote: »

That's the one I won't use. Too expensive, and the quality of the drivers and vehicles is way too variable.

So you'll never know if the NTA is improving the fleet or not.

n97 mini

Spook_ie wrote: »

So you'll never know if the NTA is improving the fleet or not.

They can all drive 192 Mercs. Doesn't solve the price and driver problems.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

Because a metered rate is subject to a maximum fares order, Uber use the GPS on the smartphones as a taximeter, if they set their GPS rates to match the maximum fares order (and find someway to ensure they are calibrated and stay calibrated i.e not some software download that can be installed and removed at will) and then don't charge above the maximum fares order then they'd get far less stick.

Dig up.

no maximum fare order for hackneys or limos.

makeorbrake

Spook_ie wrote: »

Would taxis be cheaper , possibly, how would a customer know? maybe he can go back to where he got an Uber then take a Lyft or whatever and then he'll be able to compare the price, or of course he could just stick with plain old maximum fare regulations.

Very simple. Whip out the phone and try another app. With taxi's, I suppose you'd have to figure it out by experience (which isn't the end of the world if these are journeys you're taking locally/ that you're familiar with).

But app is very transparent.

n97 mini

makeorbrake wrote: »

Very simple. Whip out the phone and try another app. With taxi's, I suppose you'd have to figure it out by experience (which isn't the end of the world if these are journeys you're taking locally/ that you're familiar with).

But app is very transparent.

Or try a site like this.
https://ride.guru/

(Note: no point in trying trips in Ireland. Try somewhere in California instead)

Spook_ie

n97 mini wrote: »

They can all drive 192 Mercs. Doesn't solve the price and driver problems.

Or they could all switch to Uber ( if they were allowed here ) and drive black SUVs you'd still likely have the same drivers, so we come down to the cost, you want a taxi service for bus fare fares.

makeorbrake

Spook_ie wrote: »

you want a taxi service for bus fare fares.

Ride sharing (as in actual ride sharing...not necessarily the Uber version of it) has the ability to provide a service at a much cheaper price point.

#sorrynotsorry .


Someone referred to getting 'timewasters' out of the market and keeping them out of the market. This is the fear for anyone in the taxi industry. However, if it's organically cheaper, it is what it is.

Virtually all on the opposing end to the argument here have said that widespread Uber usage will lead to traffic congestion. That means that more people are accessing such a service - so in that way, it's being a benefit to society (congestion is a bi-product but as per previous posts, there are other ways to tackle that).

It means that people can't afford to be using taxi's. So - if there is another means (and that other means doesn't mean any such race to the bottom, etc.) - then it's the way to go.

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

Dig up.

no maximum fare order for hackneys or limos.

I've never said there is, but Uber and Lyft don't want to be hackneys/limo's they want to use a pseudo meter to calculate the fares.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/spsv-vehicle-licensing/apply-for-an-spsv-vehicle-licence/

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

I've never said there is, but Uber and Lyft don't want to be hackneys/limo's they want to use a pseudo meter to calculate the fares.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/spsv-vehicle-licensing/apply-for-an-spsv-vehicle-licence/

Uber would have settled to operate their platforms with hackneys, they lobbied for it in fact. Just not with unreasonable conditions.

Why is the meter pseudo-? Seems perfectly ordinary meter to me. Would they not be allowed use a meter in a hackney?

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

Uber would have settled to operate their platforms with hackneys, they lobbied for it in fact. Just not with unreasonable conditions.

Why is the meter pseudo-? Seems perfectly ordinary meter to me. Would they not be allowed use a meter in a hackney?

There were no conditions attached that didn't already apply to hackneys, do you read any of the links I provide, the answers to what are allowed or not in the various classes SPSVs are covered in that link.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

There were no conditions attached that didn't already apply to hackneys, do you read any of the links I provide, the answers to what are allowed or not in the various classes SPSVs are covered in that link.

Exactly, as I wrote: unreasonable conditions.

You argued Uber weren't willing to operate a hackney service. Do you stand by that?

Spook_ie

usernamegoes wrote: »

Exactly, as I wrote: unreasonable conditions.

You argued Uber weren't willing to operate a hackney service. Do you stand by that?

I stand by they weren't willing to operate a hackney service under the terms and conditions of a hackney because they wanted to calculate the fares by using the GPS function of smart phones as a pseudo taximeter.

What were these unreasonable conditions that everyone else is able to work with except for non SPSV qualified people?

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

I stand by they weren't willing to operate a hackney service under the terms and conditions of a hackney because they wanted to calculate the fares by using the GPS function of smart phones as a pseudo taximeter.

What were these unreasonable conditions that everyone else is able to work with except for non SPSV qualified people?

Does the law prohibit the use of a "pseudo"-meter in hackneys? Can you point to where this was the reason Uber chose not to pursue this option?

The unreasonable conditions were mostly concerned with the artificial barriers to entry which we have discussed e.g. WAVs.

n97 mini

Hackneys:

Must agree the fare to be charged in advance (the fare is not calculated on a taximeter);

According to the link above. Uber calculates the fare in advance, so that bit is fine. However if there is any deviation (roadworks, rta en route, passenger asks driver to detour for some reason etc) the journey price will go up in the app. A hackney licence won't permit this. However it's very likely in reality that the passenger would give the driver a few extra bob for their troubles, so it's an unreasonable inflexibility.

usernamegoes

n97 mini wrote: »

Hackneys:

Must agree the fare to be charged in advance (the fare is not calculated on a taximeter);

According to the link above. Uber calculates the fare in advance, so that bit is fine. However if there is any deviation (roadworks, rta en route, passenger asks driver to detour for some reason etc) the journey price will go up in the app. A hackney licence won't permit this. However it's very likely in reality that the passenger would give the driver a few extra bob for their troubles, so it's an unreasonable inflexibility.

I wonder if they maximum fare could be agreed before hand which could take account of traffic etc and if the meter was lower then that's all that would be charged.

Obviously this wouldn't accommodate major issues causing huge delays. Is this just tough look for hackney drivers today? That seems unfair. Uber's system seems much fairer.

n97 mini

Spook_ie wrote: »

They dont do it by increasing the meter rate as hackneys and limos cant have taximeters in use, legally taxis can't do it at all.

There is surge pricing of sorts. 8pm to 8am Mon-Sat, all day Sunday and bank holidays have higher rates. Christmas and New Years it's higher again. The price per km increases by about 25% when the meter passes 14.5km.

n97 mini

usernamegoes wrote: »

I wonder if they maximum fare could be agreed before hand which could take account of traffic etc and if the meter was lower then that's all that would be charged.

Obviously this wouldn't accommodate major issues causing huge delays. Is this just tough look for hackney drivers today? That seems unfair. Uber's system seems much fairer.

That can't work either. The fare quoted has to be the fare charged.

Spook_ie

n97 mini wrote: »

There is surge pricing of sorts. 8pm to 8am Mon-Sat, all day Sunday and bank holidays have higher rates. Christmas and New Years it's higher again. The price per km increases by about 25% when the meter passes 14.5km.

It's not surge pricing at all, it's a maximum fare order, it doesn't matter what's happening weather wise, crisis wise or whatever they are the set rates for that time, date and distance. I couldn't for example say to a customer, "It's a wet day and lots of people looking for taxis, it will cost you double" and get away with it if they complained.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

It's not surge pricing at all, it's a maximum fare order, it doesn't matter what's happening weather wise, crisis wise or whatever they are the set rates for that time, date and distance. I couldn't for example say to a customer, "It's a wet day and lots of people looking for taxis, it will cost you double" and get away with it if they complained.

It's surge pricing, it just doesn't suit you to admit it.

n97 mini

Spook_ie wrote: »

It's not surge pricing at all, it's a maximum fare order, it doesn't matter what's happening weather wise, crisis wise or whatever they are the set rates for that time, date and distance. I couldn't for example say to a customer, "It's a wet day and lots of people looking for taxis, it will cost you double" and get away with it if they complained.

The purpose of the fare increase is to increase driver supply at what are assumed to be peak demand times. The only difference is with Uber the increase is based on actual demand, not assumed demand.

Blueshoe

We don't have Uber in Ireland.