Positioning of Bus & Cycle Lanes - Why?!

QueenMTBee

I'm back commuting on my road bike after a shoulder injury and the last few mornings have genuinely wondered who and why first thought of combining bus and cycle lanes and/or the positioning of them.

It seems a bit stupid to put the most clumsy road users which constantly stop and start/pull in and out of the kerb in the same lane/in a lane outside the most vulnerable road users. I spend my entire cycle down the quays being passed out by buses giving me inches to spare, only for them to veer across in front of me a few yards further down the road and block the cycle lane. Sometimes you can't pull out into the bus lane and go around them due to another bus flying down the lane behind you and the fact you only had about 3 seconds to decide what to do.

What is the reasoning behind it and am I the only one who thinks it's a sh*t idea?

Just to clarify - I'm not only talking about combined lanes, it's having the bus lane on the outside of the tiny cycle lane which they have to park in to reach the pavement to pick up/drop off people

Subcomandante Marcos

It's a shared lane, they shouldn't be overtaking you, and you shouldn't be cycling so close to the the kerb that they'd attempt it.
Move an extra half meter to your right and take the lane.

QueenMTBee

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

It's a shared lane, they shouldn't be overtaking you, and you shouldn't be cycling so close to the the kerb that they'd attempt it.
Move an extra half meter to your right and take the lane.

I edited my post to say that I also meant the tiny cycle lane sandwiched between the bus lane and the pavement.

I'm not complaining about them passing me with inches to spare - although it can be pretty scary - but I'm commenting on the fact that they stop and start and pull in and out of the kerb with very little notice/last second indicators. Surely the cycle lane should be put between the bus lane and the "normal" traffic lane? Let the buses stop and start in their own lane.

07Lapierre

QueenMTBee wrote: »

I edited my post to say that I also meant the tiny cycle lane sandwiched between the bus lane and the pavement.

I'm not complaining about them passing me with inches to spare - although it can be pretty scary - but I'm commenting on the fact that they stop and start and pull in and out of the kerb with very little notice/last second indicators. Surely the cycle lane should be put between the bus lane and the "normal" traffic lane? Let the buses stop and start in their own lane.

Most cycle lanes only make sense if you walk on the pavement and push your bike along. That is...the designers didn't take "Cyclists" into consideration when designing them. The priority was not to make cycling easier/more efficient. The Priority was to ensure cyclists did not impeded Motorised traffic.

niceonetom

Because the reason why many cycle and bus lanes exist is not really to convenience cyclists or bus users, but rather to facilitate the true owners of the road: the god-fearing, roadtax-paying car owners. It is imperative we not get in their way. Stay left! Stay all the way left! Get up on the path! We've painted a line down the middle of it. Are we not generous?

jimmycrackcorm

QueenMTBee wrote:

What is the reasoning behind it and am I the only one who thinks it's a sh*t idea?

Have you any better ideas, excluding the impractical?

QueenMTBee

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Have you any better ideas, excluding the impractical?

Have the bus lane beside the kerb and the cycle lane between that and the "cars" lane.

I'm not trying to give out or start an argument. I'm just curious as to why /when it was first decided to put the cycle lane beside the kerb and why since then it hasn't ever changed. I've been cycling for less than a year so maybe I'm missing some blindingly obvious reasoning.

Macy0161

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Have you any better ideas, excluding the impractical?

They should put a purpose built cycle path down the quays...

beauf

QueenMTBee wrote: »

....why first thought of combining bus and cycle lanes and/or the positioning of them....

There should be an island (pavement) between the bus and cyclist.

https://images.adsttc.com/media/images/5416/dc06/c07a/8071/2f00/00bd/large_jpg/53f2417ec07a80388e0003e5_cities-need-big-changes-to-become-bike-friendly_5134405164_7b5b80ea07_b.jpg?1410784256
https://departmentfortransport.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/baylis-road-north-bus-stop-improved-2.jpg

What we have is not a proper cycle lane.

QueenMTBee

beauf wrote: »

There should be an island (pavement) between the bus and cyclist. What we have is not a proper cycle lane.

In theory I agree it should work. But you'd have to recess the cycle lane - i.e. have the road and cycle lane at one level and have the island/pavement and the "normal" pavement at a higher raised level to highlight the fact it is a cycle lane rather than an extension of the pavement.

We currently have some of these near my office but in reality it's just an extra wide pavement with a line down the middle and the roadside side designated as a cycle lane. You just end up with idiot pedestrians walking all over the cycle lane because they think it's part of the pavement/they don't care/they have their heads buried in their phones while they walk.

beauf

Pedestrians always have right of way.

If you don't like the route because there's too many pedestrians go another. There's no need to the shortest route when you are on a bicycle. Pick the one you like cycling the best. 5 mins detour is nothing on a bicycle.

niceonetom

niceonetom wrote: »

Because the reason why many cycle and bus lanes exist is not really to convenience cyclists or bus users, but rather to facilitate the true owners of the road: the god-fearing, roadtax-paying car owners. It is imperative we not get in their way. Stay left! Stay all the way left! Get up on the path! We've painted a line down the middle of it. Are we not generous?

is it? I would suggest that cycle lanes exist purely so that the local council can pat themselves on the back for building them. The fact that many of them are completely ****e is irrelevant, they have been built and the appropriate box ticked on some planners list of annual objectives.

beauf

There no other logical reason for some of the insane layouts they do.

07Lapierre

beauf wrote: »

There no other logical reason for some of the insane layouts they do.

Here's a classic!
Starts on the road, then onto the pavement, then back onto the road!

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4037506,-6.2405734,3a,75y,2.69h,69.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoce5DA7LPAw02F2f4mbYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

ED E

Its not hard. London fixed this years ago. DCC are just 10yrs behind on every curve.

jimmycrackcorm

QueenMTBee wrote:

Have the bus lane beside the kerb and the cycle lane between that and the "cars" lane.

That's not any safer having a set of traffic on either side.

Macy0161 wrote:

They should put a purpose built cycle path down the quays...

That's only practical when you build a road from scratch.

07Lapierre

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

"
Originally Posted by Macy0161
They should put a purpose built cycle path down the quays..."

That's only practical when you build a road from scratch.

It's easy...once you remove Motorised traffic from the equation, any road can become a cycle way. all it needs is the will to do it, which is not there at the moment.

Macy0161

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's only practical when you build a road from scratch.

Plenty of european cities would suggest otherwise, where they decided to prioritise pedestrians, cyclists and public transport in the late 60's and 70's.

beauf

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

...That's only practical when you build a road from scratch.

As someone said, we are not Holland....

...but then neither was Holland before they decided to make other forms of transport a priority either...

DCC has already said quite clearly that Dublin can't handle the expected growth in car traffic. So something other than cars is the answer.

Wishbone Ash

QueenMTBee wrote: »

Have the bus lane beside the kerb and the cycle lane between that and the "cars" lane....

A bus passing at 80km/h on my left while a truck passes at 80km/h on my right? No thanks.

OP - you're perfectly entitled to cycle on the normal traffic lane on the right.

CramCycle

ED E wrote: »

Its not hard. London fixed this years ago. DCC are just 10yrs behind on every curve.

The N11 has a few like this, between the ones that are never cleaned and the rest that are just a place for the huddle masses to wait (not their fault), I am not convinced this is any better. I usually take the road with the exception of the one near Cabinteely which seems to have enough space Northbound.

Chips Lovell

Aegir wrote: »

is it? I would suggest that cycle lanes exist purely so that the local council can pat themselves on the back for building them. The fact that many of them are completely ****e is irrelevant, they have been built and the appropriate box ticked on some planners list of annual objectives.

Why can't they be both?

beauf

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Why can't they be both?

Can't be bothered?

ED E

CramCycle wrote: »

The N11 has a few like this, between the ones that are never cleaned and the rest that are just a place for the huddle masses to wait (not their fault), I am not convinced this is any better. I usually take the road with the exception of the one near Cabinteely which seems to have enough space Northbound.

That lane has many problems, but the floating stops isnt one of them. Try a boris bike on the CSs and you'll see how well it can work.

Thinkingaboutit

Aegir wrote: »

is it? I would suggest that cycle lanes exist purely so that the local council can pat themselves on the back for building them. The fact that many of them are completely ****e is irrelevant, they have been built and the appropriate box ticked on some planners list of annual objectives.

Yes, just something for the Powerpoint presentation/project report, half droned into a microphone, and then the Annual Report no one reads.

Slowing down motor vehicles in within the Dublin City area might work over time (even the occasional attempt at enforcing the 30mph or 50km/h), allow a shared space (thinking of the usual bike / private car broken line, pointless pretend cycle lanes. However, the 30km/h limit where applied, seems more observed in the breach, and speed bumps are still very much needed in areas where they're very high.

The most relevant solution would be to punish those motorists who like to menace cyclists, although that's not happening with hopelessly clogged up Courts, and certainly not District Courts where politically appointed judges ignore the law because they like or know the suspect, or feel that way.

Anyhow, forgetting impossible matters that won't be changed, I modify my route to avoid narrow/busy/hazard rich roads. As stated, a bicycle makes that possible, gives that flexibility.

QueenMTBee

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Anyhow, forgetting impossible matters that won't be changed, I modify my route to avoid narrow/busy/hazard rich roads. As stated, a bicycle makes that possible, gives that flexibility.

I do have another route that puts about 75% of my commute off the roads and onto a canal path. At the minute though (a) my shoulder isn't healed enough to lift/manoeuvre the bike over/through the numerous barriers and (b) I wouldn't cycle it in the dark on my own. Another month or so and I'll be back on it.

I did take another poster's advice and this morning I pretty much cycled down the centre of the bus and/or traffic lanes the entire quays and, weirdly, felt much safer.

07Lapierre

QueenMTBee wrote: »

I do have another route that puts about 75% of my commute off the roads and onto a canal path. At the minute though (a) my shoulder isn't healed enough to lift/manoeuvre the bike over/through the numerous barriers and (b) I wouldn't cycle it in the dark on my own. Another month or so and I'll be back on it.

I did take another poster's advice and this morning I pretty much cycled down the centre of the bus and/or traffic lanes the entire quays and, weirdly, felt much safer.

Well done...it is much safer.

Although there's probably some motorist over on the motoring Forum giving out about the bloody cyclists cycling "in the middle of the road!"....(they just don't get it)

Koobcam

Surely the main problem is that there really isn't space in many areas o Dublin to fit what you might call proper bike lanes (fully segregated). I mean, where are you going to put them? I would rather we focus on trying to get rid of all this divisive nonsense about motorists v cyclists and just try to promote more tolerance of each other. Call it the Rodney King solution to sh*t bike lanes. Can't we all just get along....?

AndrewJRenko

Koobcam wrote: »

Surely the main problem is that there really isn't space in many areas o Dublin to fit what you might call proper bike lanes (fully segregated). I mean, where are you going to put them? I would rather we focus on trying to get rid of all this divisive nonsense about motorists v cyclists and just try to promote more tolerance of each other. Call it the Rodney King solution to sh*t bike lanes. Can't we all just get along....?

There's plenty of space. The problem is the policy decision that allows large amounts of public space to be used for storage of private property (parking).

Koobcam

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There's plenty of space. The problem is the policy decision that allows large amounts of public space to be used for storage of private property (parking).

That's true I suppose, and I can think of plenty of places in Dublin where car parking spaces might be gotten rid of in favour of better road layout in general. However you have to admit there are also a lot of areas where sticking down a bike lane in an ideal manner is just not practical. I reckon everyone should just stop reading the journal and listening to Newstalk and just wait for the arrival of driverless cars...

07Lapierre

Koobcam wrote: »

That's true I suppose, and I can think of plenty of places in Dublin where car parking spaces might be gotten rid of in favour of better road layout in general. However you have to admit there are also a lot of areas where sticking down a bike lane in an ideal manner is just not practical. I reckon everyone should just stop reading the journal and listening to Newstalk and just wait for the arrival of driverless cars...

If there is no space for a cycle lane, there is no space for cars. Remove the cars and now there is space for all. Can you give an example of a street in Dublin that’s too narrow for a bike lane?