Force majeure issue

Unclebumble

Just wondering if I've used up my 3 force majeure days in a 12 month period, where I might stand if I needed to take another one?
I understand I won't get paid for it and that's fine, but would it be as if I haven't turned up for work and be disciplined the same?

seamus

The intention of force majeure is that you have a family emergency, you let your employer know you won't be in (by phone or whatever) and then you deal with the paperwork after you return to work.

Although it's not said in the legislation, it's fairly clear that it's not assumed an employee will disappear for 3 days, then come back and claim force majeure.

There is no such thing as unpaid force majeure, it's just an unpaid absence. How your company would deal with it is up to them. At the worst case if you just didn't turn up for work one day and came back in the next, then yes you could be disciplined for it.

If you believe there's a chance that you may need to take more emergency days in the 12 month period, then address that with your employer and ask them what the expected process is. They may simply require a phone call or a text on the day in question.

Kristopherus

Do you understand what Force Majeure really means? It's mainly used in urgent family issues. You do not have the liberty to take it to go on a big shopping trip with a friend. And it is exceptionally rare that you would use 3 F.M days in 12 months.

Unclebumble

Kristopherus wrote: »

Do you understand what Force Majeure really means? It's mainly used in urgent family issues. You do not have the liberty to take it to go on a big shopping trip with a friend. And it is exceptionally rare that you would use 3 F.M days in 12 months.

Thanks I know what it means.
Have young family with child who has illness and no family support apart from wife.
Unfortunately there have been medical issues in the past which are sudden.
Was just trying to get a little information- that’s all.
Was worried about my position when need to support my family.

28064212

Link to the legislation covering force majeure: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/30/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13.

If you've exceeded your allowance of force majeure, you're taking unplanned, unpaid leave. The principal difference between that and force majeure is that with the latter you're protected under the unfair dismissals legislation. You cannot be punished for availing of force majeure. You can be punished for the former. What form that punishment takes (or if there is any) is entirely company-dependent, and should be covered in your contract and/or employee handbook

Unclebumble

28064212 wrote: »

Link to the legislation covering force majeure: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/30/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13.

If you've exceeded your allowance of force majeure, you're taking unplanned, unpaid leave. The principal difference between that and force majeure is that with the latter you're protected under the unfair dismissals legislation. You cannot be punished for availing of force majeure. You can be punished for the former. What form that punishment takes (or if there is any) is entirely company-dependent, and should be covered in your contract and/or employee handbook

Thanks - thought as much.

cml387

Force majeure is for an emergency.
Have you informed your employer of your unfortunate situation? Most companies will attempt to be flexible provided they know the circumstances. Then they can plan cover or understand the need to be able to cover your absence at short notice.

GalwayGrrrrrl

I had a similar situation and was very lucky to have an understanding manager who let me phone into work on morning my child was sick, then claim time as annual leave on my return. Obviously this meant i had less leave to use for more relaxing activities but it was a godsend when my boy was small and unwell a lot. Speak to your manager and put a plan in place for unpaid or paid leave.

_Brian

Unclebumble wrote: »

Just wondering if I've used up my 3 force majeure days in a 12 month period, where I might stand if I needed to take another one?
I understand I won't get paid for it and that's fine, but would it be as if I haven't turned up for work and be disciplined the same?

So once you use your allowance your at the mercy of your employer.

You will need to ring into work if you cannot attend. Explaining exactly why you need to be at home and your wife can’t deal with the problem.
Then your employer has a choice, cut some slack and give you another day. Maybe give a Day annual leave at short notice. Or treat it like unplanned absence and issue a discipline.
What will happen will depend on your employer and more importantly your relationship with them, how you’ve been in the past and your reputation with them.

In instances as above I’ve done all three depending on the employee in question.

Hoboo

_Brian wrote: »

In instances as above I’ve done all three depending on the employee in question.

Minefield right there, opening up questions of bias at best, discrimination at worst!

optogirl

Kristopherus wrote: »

Do you understand what Force Majeure really means? It's mainly used in urgent family issues. You do not have the liberty to take it to go on a big shopping trip with a friend. And it is exceptionally rare that you would use 3 F.M days in 12 months.

who mentioned shopping trips?

_Brian

Hoboo wrote: »

Minefield right there, opening up questions of bias at best, discrimination at worst!

No, each employee is treated as an individual and depending on their individual performance different outcomes apply.
Employees with history of tardiness and absenteeism get no grace. That’s life, if you don’t play ball you get no favours in return. Exemplary employees will always find managers will look after them. Any working adult who hasn’t figured this out is fooling themselves.

davo10

_Brian wrote: »

No, each employee is treated as an individual and depending on their individual performance different outcomes apply.
Employees with history of tardiness and absenteeism get no grace. That’s life, if you don’t play ball you get no favours in return. Exemplary employees will always find managers will look after them. Any working adult who hasn’t figured this out is fooling themselves.

I think Hoboo has a point there, though you may prefer some of your employees, they must all be treated the same. If you begin disciplinary action against an employee while allowing another to do the same thing, you will be the one in trouble. That could be an expensive mistake for the business owner.

The Employmemt Equality Act (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0021/index.html) outlines this.

_Brian

davo10 wrote: »

I think Hoboo has a point there, though you may prefer some of your employees, they must all be treated the same. If you begin disciplinary action against an employee while allowing another to do the same thing, you will be the one in trouble. That could be an expensive mistake for the business owner.

The Employmemt Equality Act (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0021/index.html) outlines this.

When performance managing employees their history is very relaxant. Yes they all work under the same performance management system, but how it treats them depends on their past performance, poor performing employees may get disciplined while high performing employees are accommodated.

Similarly senior managers shouldn’t come to supervisors and ask that employees are “managed out the door” but don’t fool yourself that this doesn’t happen.

caviardreams

I would have assumed annual leave was the obvious solution here - given the circumstances the employers should probably understand the short notice etc. Surely this is exactly the kind of thing that annual leave is for i.e. when you are unable to attend work for whatever reason be it family-related or otherwise.

davo10

_Brian wrote: »

When performance managing employees their history is very relaxant. Yes they all work under the same performance management system, but how it treats them depends on their past performance, poor performing employees may get disciplined while high performing employees are accommodated.

Similarly senior managers shouldn’t come to supervisors and ask that employees are “managed out the door” but don’t fool yourself that this doesn’t happen.

We all know this happens, but all employees are entitled to be treated fairly, and importantly, equally. You cannot discipline an employee for something while allowing another employee to do the same thing, that is not treating them equally. If you do, then you put yourself at risk of being accused of discrimination and a visit to the WRC. If you are in a position of authority, you need to read up on this.

Start here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/victimisation_at_work.html

_Brian

davo10 wrote: »

We all know this happens, but all employees are entitled to be treated fairly, and importantly, equally. You cannot discipline an employee for something while allowing another employee to do the same thing, that is not treating them equally. If you do, then you put yourself at risk of being accused of discrimination and a visit to the WRC. If you are in a position of authority, you need to read up on this.

Start here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/victimisation_at_work.html

Thanks.
Meanwhile in the real world good employees get treated way better than poor employees.

davo10

_Brian wrote: »

Thanks.
Meanwhile in the real world good employees get treated way better than poor employees.

And good managers don't get their employers sued.

Xterminator

_Brian wrote: »

Thanks.
Meanwhile in the real world good employees get treated way better than poor employees.

not in my experience. the awkwards ones, who complain the most get treated with kid gloves and good decent people get ridden.

seamus

caviardreams wrote: »

I would have assumed annual leave was the obvious solution here - given the circumstances the employers should probably understand the short notice etc. Surely this is exactly the kind of thing that annual leave is for i.e. when you are unable to attend work for whatever reason be it family-related or otherwise.

Depends on the workplace. Union shops, for example, are usually incredibly by-the-book and may not allow for annual leave to be taken without a request in writing at least several days ahead of time. Sudden absences like these can sometimes be require several different forms to be filled out and potentially formal meetings with HR and managers about what happened and why.

When the obvious solution is that a phone call is just fine and retroactively deducting annual leave should be no problem.

Never underestimate the level of bureaucracy in some workplaces. Many are still run more like a 1950's school than a modern company.

I was laughing the Friday before Xmas at my brother - who occupies a far more senior position and has 20+ years tenure at his company - because he wouldn't skip out of work early until he was formally "allowed" to go by his own boss, according to company rules.

I, on the other hand, can just stand up and leave.