Consistently Targeted by a Moderator (and General Inconsistencies)

Billy86

I've had an ongoing issue with one particular moderator for over a year now, whose inconsistencies are nothing short of maddening. It's pretty apparent that they don't check (or mind about) re-regs either so I can always just go down that route, in which case I'm unsure if this is more applicable here or in somewhere like feedback, but I'll put it here nonetheless and let the mods/admin decide if it needs reallocation.

Your post:

Billy86 wrote: »

Amerika wrote: »

The O’Keeffe...

The exact point at which everyone would be best served to stop reading this post. You'll save yourself seeing this poster go on and try to use Trumps own campaign (breitbart) as a source of any integrity.

Anyone confused should Google O'Keeffe and ask themselves if this is the kind of argument they should even be bothered engaging in.

For this I received an infraction. Which itself might seem fine in isolation, but if this is the case then the same should apply any time ‘fake news’ is brought up to discredit a story on either side of the debate. I’m not sure if I’ve seen anyone else carded in the US election/Trump forums over two years for pointing out an unreliable source.

For anyone that follows US politics, James O’Keeffe’s latest stunt was to plant a fake complaint of sexual harassment in the Washington Post a few weeks back in order to make sexual assault victims of that Roy Moore fella. But we’re not allowed discredit him as an unreliable source, and instead have to treat him as every bit as reliable as the likes of the BBC.

The specific wording was “You have been infracted for being uncivil. Typically, this means that you are posting in a needlessly aggressive or confrontational manner being disruptive on the forum or causing stress for the other members. We don't want that here.” So if the moderator would like to try and claim it wasn’t to do with dismissing the source (if it was, there's are posts even from today that need infractions), if that’s the tone we’re calling uncivil there are several hundred posts just in that thread, never even mind all of Politics, that infractions needs to be given out for.


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https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105011077#post105011077

Here I got an infraction for posting an image as a response, which was odd to me as I even said in the response that the picture did all the talking. Long story short it was in relation to the whole NFL kneeling thing, and about how that had nothing to do with “the flag” as some were claiming, which literally could not be summed up better than a photo of a guy in a “I stand for the anthem!” t-shirt sitting on a flag, rubbing it into the ground with his arse.

The only way for me to add to that would be to describe the photo that people can see with their own eyes, directly underneath it.

The mod then later told me to look at the charter (for which from what I can see there is no mention of ‘image dumping’ which was the reason they gave for the card, though I can see how it would fall under 'one liners'). I’ve had to correct this mod on what the charter actually says a few times now, to the point they denied it said what I was quoting directly from it and tried to state I was intentionally misinterpreting it... yet when I quoted it and directly asked how, they point blank refused to respond. With all due respect, what kind of level of moderation is this?

So if it’s the case that the post did deserve an infraction then absolutely fair enough. Then every post that’s simply an image, Youtube video or tweet, regardless of content, context or anything else, should get an automatic infraction, which we all know doesn’t happen.


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https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101661127#post101661127

Here is another infraction I got that would mean, if rules were applied consistently, infractions would skyrocket all across the board to the tune of hundreds a month. This explicitly points to the previous posts, inconsistencies within them, and the fact the poster did a complete U-turn on something that remained unchanged simply because of the letter beside the politician’s name.


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johnnyskeleton wrote:

Dear Billy86,

You have been warned for a breach of the forum charter.

Every forum on Boards.ie has a charter which lists any specific rules that forum may have and it is really important that you read this as it'll help you familiarise yourself with how that forum works. You should also understand that every forum is different and that charters are how you learn the differences.

Please see the Boards.ie FAQ for more details.



johnnyskeleton

Moderator Note

Telling people you have reported their post is not debate. It's a kind of backseat moderation

Your post:

Billy86 wrote: »

Amerika wrote: »

I guess my response to that should be... Better than Hillary exploiting the Haiti earthquake in order to steal billions of dollars from the sick and starving people. See... Everyone can play that game.

Reported.

So why no card here? https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101403551

Or here? https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94608780&postcount=2043

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anyone carded on the politics forum for stating they reported a post. Perhaps the mods here, with more access to infraction histories etc, can point out to me the times this has happened to other posters on the politics forum.

Otherwise it seems the rule only applies to one person and from one mod, because I got an infraction from the very same mod for the very same thing here - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101534869#post101534869


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This is the same moderator that says: "If you are not happy with the outcome of the reported post, please PM a moderator in case it slipped through the cracks (there are an awful lot of reported posts these days)"... Yet when I did this, to directly quote what they told me when I pointed such posts out "im not even going to engage with your whataboutery pointing out other posts."

Added to that, I’ve had that same mod literally tell me to stop reporting posts. Over and over we get told if we have a problem with a post, to report it. Yet here I am, on that very forum, from that very mod, that I need to report posts less. Even here, pointing out the issues, and how nothing was done... all we got told was “well, report it”. I had reported this, and had reported this poster breaking that exact part of the charter over and over and over and over - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100843545&postcount=74

Nothing happened. After this post repeatedly broke the charter and was repeatedly reported and repeatedly nothing was done on it, I just call them on their lies for what they were. Needless to say,

Of course, there’s little need to point out the irony that this was in a thread with a lot of complaints about moderation (sound familiar?) – https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94784270 – during which this specific mod was questioned by other posts as here, in relation to ignoring reported posts: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94784140&postcount=2310


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Now as any mod here can see, I’ve received several infractions down the years - not denying nor hiding that whatsoever, and I'm fully aware it can put a red flag on you. However you’ll also notice that I have one for a joke about John Terry in the soccer forum that wasn’t taken all that kindly on by a mod (fair enough, no worries there), and otherwise... every single infraction for well over a full year has come from one moderator and one moderator alone. There are older ones from other mods on that forum, which after back-and-forth with the mods who gave them out, led to some fairly productive discussion and I even wound up grabbing a pint with one of them last Feb. These had come from calling posters out for lying, which was a contentious issue for a number of reasons (for example either that they were parroting other people's lies/fake news stories quite often rather than their own, or were very slippery when it came to lying), so I can definitely understand that it was a tricky one to rule over.

But here’s the thing... when you report someone lying over and over and the mods do nothing about it as that poster continues to lie, well what's the next step next? To PM this mod apparently as he had requested, though they are just ignored. I actually did get a response from a different mod after a very detailed PM about a poster repeatedly lying, which let me know “I've forwarded this pm onto the other mods and we'll discuss it now, particularly the ignore function part of it!“... The ignore function part wasn’t a sarcastic comment by them, but alluded to the absolutely indisputable lies from said poster who was claiming to have not seen posts correcting their incorrect statements due to those posters allegedly being on their ignore list... while they were still replying to those same posters. Who were apparently on their ignore list.

Anyway, nothing ever happened, which is exactly what I had expected. I got banned for calling his lies for what they are, and he got allowed to continue to carry on lying.

And to absolutely none of my surprise, the same mod who has it in for me has since claimed “All I’ve ever seen is you calling people liars without backing it up.” If wished, I can post the PM in question here that this mod would have seen, very clearly and explicitly outlining these lies. They later added that it “doesn’t matter” if those posters were lying or not.

Again, what kind of moderation is that?

The charter specifically states: "Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned." ... Yet this is absolutely not the case. We saw this all through the US election threads, with the same posters posting the same garbage that had already been debunked multiple times, including by themselves, with nothing being done.

Then again, given we’re about 8-9 mod warnings deep into not using ‘But Hillary’ or ‘But Obama’ talk, and yet as recently as just last week, any time a poster comes around with this whataboutery and derailment efforts, and it’s usually the same few posters over and over... nothing. This despite the charter very specifically stating: Thread derailing will be treated particularly harshly. If there's more than a couple of examples of a poster taking an unrelated thread and turning it into a public-versus-private / unionists-versus-nationalists / us-versus-them contest, then expect a sanction.

The politics charter needs to be heavily redone in my opinion, or some form of clarity provided, because some rules are enforced and others simply are not. And others are enforced in ways not mentioned in the charter, with the wording in the charter being ignored entirely.

Though it also seems the inconsistency is often not down to what was posted, but who posted it. An example a few weeks back being two posters who each made one single sentence off topic about chocolate and each got an infraction for it. Meanwhile, the very page before that two other posters went off topic for 1-2 posts each, each 1-2 sentences, about cars... nothing happened. The difference? The two guys who did not get an infraction happened to both be mods. I reported this, followed up, and... nothing happened except for the two ‘chocolate infractions’ vanishing as it seems there’s a mod there who loves to throw out cards to certain posters but doesn’t seem that to have much appetite when it comes to applying the rules evenly.


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And then this morning I got a permanent ban, based on this post - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105725513#post105725513 . This post came as a result of Noel82 spreading misinformation about me by claiming I “echoed the how much a choirboy Clinton was during the election and as of last week I think you were still defending her”. It seems to be an accusation a 'new' poster throws out in my direction every month or so.

Now... call me mental... but does or doesn’t the charter explicitly state: “Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned" as I have pointed to multiple times in this post?

Because I asked Noel82 to back up these statements - nothing... I then reported this - nothing... I asked Noel82 to back it up again - nothing... At this point, it had been a few days and was clear that no mod action would be taken. Given that so many of Noel’s posts are simply “but Hillary, but Obama!” despite numerous mod warnings throughout the thread not to do so, it’s not all that surprising.

So I then made the post linked to above. I asked again for him to clarify, stating (from plenty of experience!) that even though he was ignoring any request to back up his claim and show it wasn't a lie, that I would receive an infraction for it. I also pointed out that he was talking about (well, fabricating) my posting through 2016 when he registered in July 2017. So I pointed out he must then be a re-reg. Instant permanent ban... for me. Now according to this mod, this is for “posting in an intentionally provocative fashion in order to gain a reaction from other members. This is disruptive and causes stress to other members“. Yeah I wanted a reaction - I wanted him to actually back up his statement since this mod had not apparent interest in holding him accountable for it.

So for this mod, it’s absolutely fine for people to make up whatever they want about me, and no action will be taken. Christ, this is the same mod who told me I shouldn’t be reporting these posts despite them also saying in threads that people should report these posts, and that it “doesn’t really matter” if people are lying or not, despite the charter explicitly stating that it very much does matter. However, on top of not being allowed report posts I’m also not allowed respond in kind, to let them know I’ve reported it, to press them too much on it, to point out that they are a re-reg, or to really say or do a thing about it.

Basically, this mod seems eager for my only option to having people outright lying about me or the topic of debate is to let them continue to lie at their own will and not even report posts because “it really doesn’t matter any more whether the posters you are talking about are telling truth or lies.” Sure at that rate I don’t even need to dispute this ban, all I need to do is go and make a new account and go right back to posting in the politics forum.

I have done moderating on a similarly busy if not busier forum before and know it can be arduous and thankless, but I also know well from mod forums that like all authoritative positions, it’s got a bit of a habit of attracting people whose biggest interest is a power trip and not even enforcement. I also get that it’s got to be tricky when the person many of these posters borderline worship lies multiple times every single day, it’s hard to find where the balance is when it comes to how to deal with these when repeated by his followers even after debunked.

But there has to be a line somewhere – when you’re allowing free reign for some to throw accusations about others around that they refuse to back up, ignoring when these posts are reported, and then ban the person having accusation made of them for calling the accuser out on it after several requests to back up their statement, you’ve got a seriously flawed and inconsistent moderation.


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So in summary, while I’ve got other mods telling me to report posts, I’ve got this mod telling me to stop reporting posts.

While I’ve got other mods saying that they do see what I mean about direct lies in posts and that he would bring this to the likes of this mods' attention, I’ve got this mod point blank telling me that a) “all I’ve ever seen is you calling people liars without backing it up” while also saying “it really doesnt matter any more whether the posters you are talking about are telling truth or lies”.

I’ve got this mod previously giving me an infraction for the words I used in a post, while simultaneously claiming that the words I used in that same post were not relevant, which makes absolutely no sense.

I’ve got this mod, when I asked for clarification on the rules, accusing me of having “deliberately misinterpreted this to mean that you should report any post that you think the person might not have been correct” by quoting it verbatim, as opposed to using their own definitions (that are nowhere to be found on the charter). This is the supposed “deliberate misinterpretation”.

“Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned."
Here is how I am interpreting it: don't knowingly spread misinformation or try to distort the truth or facts.

"We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information."
Here is how I am interpreting it: honest mistakes are OK, but only to an extent and if you are to make a claim you need to be able to back it up with something verifiable.

"If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned."
Here is how I am interpreting it: if you continue to post misleading and distortion of information, the protections you have of claiming ignorance are not there.

So I’ll also tie in appeal to other mods to explain to me where I am incorrect in the interpretation above, can anyone provide further clarification?

The reason I ask for further clarification is I’ve when I requested as much from this mod all I got was the following – “stop trying to needle me.”

So he’s fully willing to hand out an infraction for calling someone’s lies, but entirely unwilling to do anything about people just making up whatever they wish about the topic or other posters, as they go. He’s also fully willing to try and invoke the charter for reasoning behind these infractions, but when pointed out to him what the charter actually says (which I wouldn’t expect to need to do for a mod) all I've got is instant disengagement from him.

There are numerous threads on the slow death of boards in recent times, and to be honest this is as much about this as it is about multiple disputes with this mod. As stated earlier, I can just create a new account anyway since apparently they're grand with re-regs. Very, very frequently and from a wide array of different users, these discussions about what is killing Boards boil down to inconsistent moderating and the distinct impression some mods give off of simply being interested in a power trip. I know various other posters have expressed as much sentiment over PM about this guy, and frankly I consider this kind of carry on a very large reason why this place in dying off.

Beasty

Are you appealing any cards or bans? If so this is the place to do so, but you should try and resolve that directly with the mod first. This forum only deals with appeals against cards or bans, and the vast majority of you post is not related to specific mod actions on that front

Any specific mod complaints are dealt with in Help Desk, but you should first try an deal directly with the relevant mod(s) to try and resolve any issues

Beasty

Sorry, just noticed you are permanently banned from Politics - if you re-register and post while banned from a forum, that's an automatic site ban. If you do it repeatedly the siteban becomes permanent

Billy86

Beasty wrote: »

Sorry, just noticed you are permanently banned from Politics - if you re-register and post while banned from a forum, that's an automatic site ban. If you do it repeatedly the siteban becomes permanent

Cheers for the clarification on that, been in touch with the mod in question already who as per usual since getting caught out on his own charter, wants to have absolutely zero conversation on the matter. I PMed him after getting the ban asking how is it that I get a ban while nothing occurs to the guy just making stuff up about me as he pleases. This was the response.

"Youre constantly trying to rile people up, not least the mods. Feel free to go to DRP."

It's also odd as the only other mod on there that I recall dealing with in is K-9 who has been inactive for a long time (or at least I've not seen him post/etc in ages) and ancapailldorcha who I'd consider myself to get on well with. Think I've had some interactions with Quin_Dub also though if memory serves that was poster-to-poster (e.g. completely unrelated to anything to do with moderating) and I'm not only quite fond of him as a poster but also tend to agree with him very frequently.

So sure I'll dispute it. I don't know how much I might hold my breath or not there since I absolutely will hold my hands up and say I've been confrontational with posters who refuse to engage in factual conversation over the 2-3 years on there, but there's a wider issue which has been extremely prevalent that could use some discussion (even if only directly in relation to the posts/infractions referenced in the OP rather than a wider 'site' issue), because the shifting of goalposts as to what is or is not acceptable, what actions/paths posters should take, and the remarkable inconsistency from this mod is disconcerting.

Beasty

That's fine, and I'll drop a note to the Politics CMods alerting them to this thread

Please stick to the facts surrounding this ban (which I am sure extend to earlier mod actions against you, but not actions taken, or indeed not taken against others)

Once this appeal has been dealt with you can start a thread in Help Desk if you wish to follow up on any wider complaints about moderation

Pat Mustard

Billy86, I'll take a look at this. There seems to be quite a bit to read so it may take some time. I hope that is okay.

Billy86

Thanks for that Pat, not a worry at all re the timeline and feel free to let me know if there is anything else you should require on my end - apologies for the length though it has been an ongoing issue with this mod. Just to quickly point out the reason for the mentioning of the surrounding previous incidents and context leading up to this is largely because standards of posting of course vary between forums (e.g. stuff flies in AH or many sports forums that never, ever would in Personal Issues for obvious reasons) so it's good practice to get a gauge of what is the required level in any particular one, yet there doesn't seem to be any consistency with this mod so long as I'm involved.

We are told if we think someone is lying to report it, yet at the same time this same mod has point blank said he doesn't care if people lie and doesn't care if I report it, and no action gets taken on these. This really makes little to no sense whatsoever as it is directly and deliberately in breach of the charter by a mod - "Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned" and "If you have a problem with a post, use the report post function", which I have put to that moderator before and which they refused to go any beyond claiming I was deliberately misinterpreting it (near the very bottom of the first post, I'm curious how anyone could call that a 'deliberate misinterpretation' of the rules).

To be blunt, it very much strikes me as a deliberately imposed double standard by this mod on me (hence every infraction bar an ill-advised joke about John Terry on the soccer forum being from this one mod), with this being just the latest example as I was responding to a point blank lie about me (and far from the first time with this particular lie!) yet never called the poster a liar and indeed reported it as we are told to do so often.

Pat Mustard

Hi Billy86,

I've been looking through what you have posted, to include the linked content.

I might say at the outset that a number of posts mentioned by you are in relation to other posters. Although I get that your argument is that this is in relation to even-handedness of moderation, those posts should be outside the terms of what we are discussing here.

I think that the crux of the matter is in relation to your permanent ban from the Politics forum for this post: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105725513#post105725513

Whilst I understand that you have a dispute in relation to moderation, complaints about moderators are for the Helpdesk forum and the DRF is for disputes about cards or bans.

Therefore I would propose to take a look at your permaban from the forum, if that is in order with you.

Pat Mustard

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Therefore I would propose to take a look at your permaban from the forum, if that is in order with you.

Hi Billy86,

In relation to the above, you might clarify that it is in order with you for me to single out and deal with the issue of the permaban from Politics.

Thank you.

Billy86

Hi Pat, apologies as I missed your initial reply the other day. I would be in supportive of that and appreciate you getting back to me on the matter.

Pat Mustard

Hi Billy86,

I'm sorry about the long delay. There is a lot going on at the moment and it's difficult to find time to reply in detail.

This is the relevant part of the post which resulted in the ban:

Billy86 wrote: »

I'd flat out call you a liar but the mods will card me for it, I'm unsure if they sanction people for lying or just decide to let it go with impunity, so I'd appreciate if you could back that up.

Actually on that note, you're talking about posts from 2016 and yet joined in July 2017... funny that you're a re-reg. Say... you've a hang up about 'fake news' and the mainstream media, right?

The rule is to play the ball, not the man. Calling someone a liar is not acceptable. Although closing one account and opening another is not against the rules as long as it is not to circumvent a ban, the term rereg has the connotation of a rereg troll and in the context in which you phrased the above, it was playing the man and not the ball. Therefore, this post is actionable by the moderator, in my view.

The sanction that was applied was a permanent ban from Politics. Your record in the Politics forum shows a significant number of previous cards and bans. Leaving aside the current ban and a ban which was lifted following your discussion with a moderator, there are 5 bans, 3 infractions, 3 warnings in the Politics forum alone. There are another couple of warnings in Politics Cafe also. So your record in Politics is not great, even apart from the rest of your cards and bans picked up in other forums.

It should be pointed out that moderators are entitled to escalate sanctions. If posters do not respond to warnings, they can impose infractions and bans. Shorter bans can be followed by longer bans.

One of your previous bans in Politics was a long ban. It was for one month. The other bans in Politics were short bans. Given the number of previous cards and bans which were picked up in the forum, the moderators had an entitlement to impose a more severe sanction for the post quoted above.

Your post was actionable insofar as it was uncivil but it may seem somewhat severe to impose a permanent ban from the forum for it. However, it was given on the back of a significant record in the forum and made under the principle of escalating sanction. You got mostly short bans previously but this time the sanction increased.

That said, when posters have been around for years, it is unfortunate to see them getting permanently banned. Also, most of your previous bans have been short ones. With that in mind, I approached the forum mods to see if they would take a look at shortening the length of the current ban. It may be possible to do that but in order for this to happen, it will be necessary for you to accept that your posting style needs to change. I am going to run through some of the issues now.

When an issue arises, you should report the post. And then you should drop the issue because it is up to the moderators to check the issue and to take action, or not. Even if no action is taken, that needs to be the end of the matter. It is not appropriate to make further comment on the thread later on.

For instance, if you think that someone is lying about something and if you think that there is some breach of the rules in that regard, report the post and then you have to drop it. It is not appropriate to call another poster a liar, whether or not the moderators have taken action in relation to a reported post.

Not every post is reported and not every post is seen by the moderators. Therefore, it can arise that actionable posts can go unsanctioned. Just because an actionable post goes unsanctioned does not make it unfair for the moderators to sanction another actionable post. Therefore, I would suggest to you that if you see an actionable post, report it and leave it at that.

I think that the main source of difficulty in relation to your posts is in relation to playing the man, not the ball. I think that if you were to observe the "play the ball, not the man" principle, you would avoid much of problems of the type which had arisen previously.

I wonder if you would consider the above and get back to me. I think that if you could go through the details above, accept that there are shortcomings in your posting and agree to remedy these issues, the mods may agree to a reduced ban.

The Hill Billy

Billy86 - Are you still appealing this? If so, please respond to PW. If not we close this.

Thanks,

tHB

Billy86

I've given this a bit of thought and rather than proceed, I will be shutting my account and leaving boards in the next few weeks. To be honest what's the point when that same mod is openly bragging about not applying the rules equally, about ignoring reported posts (which is exactly where this ban stemmed from by... feck all coincidence), about refusing to go by the own rules of their own charter, and who appears to have little interest in doing anything but feeding his own ego with a little power trip.

Thanks all the same, but after a fair bit of thought on the matter it's just not worth that hassle given they'll just try to ban me again for a typo.

The Hill Billy

Billy86 - I am sorry to hear that you are closing your account.

In relation to your allegations of poor mod behaviour - I view this as quite serious. Please provide links back this up & it will be looked into. You can PM me directly or start a thread in Help Desk.

I'll leave this thread open for a couple of days in case you change your mind about the appeal.

tHB

The Hill Billy

Hi billy86:

As I've had no response on the appeal or to back-up your allegation, I'm closing this now.

tHB