Moving from full EV i3

stesaurus

So I'm taking a step backwards from full EV and moving to a PHEV. A few times i've been badly let down by the infrastructure and only getting 70-80km in the really bad weather was the final straw.
So next week I'm travelling to the UK to pick up a 2017 330e and will be handing back the i3.
I'm going to miss the car so much as its a great car really. 66,000km over 28 months proves that.

I was toying with the idea of another EV with longer range but honestly I couldn't move from the i3 to a Leaf or Ioniq. A 2nd hand Model S was an option but in the end an M Sport spec 330e came up at the right price.
My plan would be to keep it for 1-2 years and then jump to a full EV again when options are more plentiful.

Do I still get to hang out here and bitch?

unkel

stesaurus wrote: »

My plan would be to keep it for 1-2 years and then jump to a full EV again Tesla Model 3

FYP

I bet you'll love the 330e, but with your mileage the running costs will increase significantly. But I'm sure you've done the sums

I was tempted by a similar move. Still am. Do you mind sharing more details about your car, what year, what price and how much will the VRT be?

Good luck with your trip. I can see myself going over to the UK for more cars too. Was a pleasant experience.

stesaurus

stesaurus wrote: »

My plan would be to keep it for 1-2 years and then jump to a full EV again when options are more plentiful.

Don't cod yourself , 1-2 years won't see much choice. Any newer electrics that may come out will be in limited supply.

The 330e as Unkel said will see your fuel costs go up significantly as it has a tiny battery.

I got the 33 Kwh i3 rex and love it, the rex means I can take it anywhere and I'd have it any day over the 330e. 150-180 Kms range Ev and petrol if I get stuck for battery energy , I can fire up the Rex on the Motorway and use the battery only when I know I'm going to make it to the next destination.

I think you'll be shedding tears handing over xx Euro's for petrol every week !

stesaurus

unkel wrote: »

FYP

I bet you'll love the 330e, but with your mileage the running costs will increase significantly. But I'm sure you've done the sums

I was tempted by a similar move. Still am. Do you mind sharing more details about your car, what year, what price and how much will the VRT be?

Good luck with your trip. I can see myself going over to the UK for more cars too. Was a pleasant experience.

Your thread on the 330e prompted me to take another look at them actually so I blame you.
I've been to the UK a few times now for cars. Always enjoyable.
It's a 2017 and including VRT should have it landed for 28k. Similar M Sport here would be a lot more.

1-2 years will hopefully see a performance Leaf 2, Kona, Model 3. Maybe a full EV 3 series on the horizon.

I had looked at the Rex and also a brand new 33kWh i3 but the new model is too expensive and the Rex would just be another compromise like the 330e will be. Id hope the 330e holds it's value better than a Rex would work this is my thinking.

I have a charger at work, home, parents and sisters so I can always get a charge in most places. So I should be able to make use of the EV side of things quite a lot.

I got a good deal on the 33 Kwh with high spec, look around.

I'd like to know why you think the 33 Kwh rex is a compromise ?

goz83

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like to know why you think the 33 Kwh rex is a compromise ?

It’s called self-justification

unkel

stesaurus wrote: »

It's a 2017 and including VRT should have it landed for 28k. Similar M Sport here would be a lot more.

That's a lot of car for the money. Maybe I should go test drive one. Although when I suggested a BMW 330e to herself, she said she preferred to keep Ioniq. Which is quite surprising as she really liked driving our E60 (and I've owned many BMWs over the years)

You sellling the i3 privately then next week?

stesaurus

Deleted User wrote: »

I got a good deal on the 33 Kwh with high spec, look around.

I'd like to know why you think the 33 Kwh rex is a compromise ?

You don't get the full range from the battery with a Rex and you're carrying around the extra weight when not needed. The battery range is just not quite enough sometimes for me. I have managed with fast charging in the past but I hate relying on the network so it would be a compromise. There is no perfect combo of performance, range and affordability at present for me.

unkel wrote: »

That's a lot of car for the money. Maybe I should go test drive one. Although when I suggested a BMW 330e to herself, she said she preferred to keep Ioniq. Which is quite surprising as she really liked driving our E60 (and I've owned many BMWs over the years)

You sellling the i3 privately then next week?

I'd say for ease I'll just be handing back under the half rule. Only a dealer would have the cash to pay for it and they're at best going to meet its current value. So hand it back and let BMW do the work.

unkel

stesaurus wrote: »

I'd say for ease I'll just be handing back under the half rule. Only a dealer would have the cash to pay for it and they're at best going to meet its current value. So hand it back and let BMW do the work.

I'd be quite interested in the details. Under the half rule, you just hand the car back, right? You will get nothing for it but you also don't suffer any consequences like the second you hand it back, you don't have to make any more payments and your credit rating is not affected or anything like that?

And what way would it work if you actually sold the car for a realistic private sale value and then paid back what you owed to the finance company? Would that be better for you even at a low ball price?

stesaurus

unkel wrote: »

I'd be quite interested in the details. Under the half rule, you just hand the car back, right? You will get nothing for it but you also don't suffer any consequences like the second you hand it back, you don't have to make any more payments and your credit rating is not affected or anything like that?

That's the thinking. It also seems to be a way of avoiding the penalties for exceeding agreed mileage on the PCP deal. It gets recorded as clearing the finance so credit record is fine although I'd imagine getting credit from them directly again might be difficult. As long as you have exceeded the 50% of total finance to be payed, including the balloon you're good.

unkel wrote: »

And what way would it work if you actually sold the car for a realistic private sale value and then paid back what you owed to the finance company? Would that be better for you even at a low ball price?

I don't see the value being much more than the current finance owed. If it is then you could sell it privately but what private person buys cars for 20k from another private person?
Seems to be much cleaner to just hand back.

stesaurus

stesaurus wrote: »

You don't get the full range from the battery with a Rex and you're carrying around the extra weight when not needed. The battery range is just not quite enough sometimes for me. I have managed with fast charging in the past but I hate relying on the network so it would be a compromise. There is no perfect combo of performance, range and affordability at present for me.

To be honest while the rex might hold back 6% battery that's usually a good bit less that you'd normally get to a charge point in a BEV. With a BEV you'd probably be plugged in by 20% where with the Rex you can use all of the available range which is a good bit more than your 21 Kwh.

In the 33 Kwh the rex is quiet capable of holding the range at 100 Kph without the charge % dropping, it's a bit more powerful than in the 21 Kwh.

You can use bimmercode anyway to eliminate the car holding back the 6% however , you risk loosing some power if you run to 0 so you need to make sure you get this right and not let it run down but as I said it should be still capable of maintaining 100 Kph though I have never tested this. I do have Bimmercode and have thought about disabling this 6% limit but then thought that I never get this low anyway.

On long motorway runs you can and probably should enable the Rex once it allows at 75% and use petrol, that's when you know you won't make the destination, then use the battery when you get onto slower roads to reach your destination, the Rex gives you a few options BEV's do not have.

Yes I am carrying around extra weight but the I3 Rex is still more efficient than the Leaf even without the heat pump.

80sDiesel

Madlad. Do you know how much the rex is extra(over the Bev) to service a year ? I am guessing it needs oil changes etc.

Well according to the trip computer it's next service is January 2019 so I'm not too bothered if I've to service it once every 2 years, however, this could change as I use the rex more. But to answer your question , I don't know how much it is to service, yet !

Cros would be the Man to ask as he's an I3 Rex owner.

cros13

80sDiesel wrote: »

Madlad. Do you know how much the rex is extra(over the Bev) to service a year ? I am guessing it needs oil changes etc.

The REx service schedule is the same as the BEV. Once every two years, regardless of mileage.

My 2nd service on the 151 is January 2019 too. I paid €320 for a six year/three service plan.

billy few mates

I take it the BMW 330e is similar technology to the VW Golf GTE (PHEV) with approx 50km electric range, how do they compare? Are they in a similar price range or is one better/higher spec than the other?

I actually took an i3 out for a test drive this week and despite my previous reservations (voiced here) I actually loved it. Her indoors was blown away by it, I didn't think she'd like the looks of it but she thought it was beautiful!
Ive only ever seen pictures of them before but I was quite surprised how different I felt when I saw one in the flesh. The inside was beautiful, very high spec and very nicely finished. The test drive was really nice too. I could definitely live with one of them.
I was a bit disappointed to discover the current BMW dealers Sterling discount offer doesn't apply to i3s for some reason so every other BMW in the place came with a 9% discount except the actual one i was interested in buying. That includes every petrol and diesel model, so much for encouraging a switch to EV!
Anyway they didn't have a suitable nearly new, the price for a new one was crazy so we left it there. He did mention other models like the hybrid 330e but I didn't look at it because it wasn't what I was looking for.
Are they worth a look?

Shefwedfan

A guy on facebook is selling his 171 BMW i3, swapping for Tesla so it might be worth a look.....

I think he said he got about 30km or less on battery. He posted on the forums

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A guy on facebook is selling his 171 BMW i3, swapping for Tesla so it might be worth a look.....

I think he said he got about 30km or less on battery. He posted on the forums

30 Kms or less in an i3 ?

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A guy on facebook is selling his 171 BMW i3, swapping for Tesla so it might be worth a look.....

I think he said he got about 30km or less on battery. He posted on the forums

30 Kms or less in an i3 ?

Bit of typo, i330e

cros13

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think he said he got about 30km or less on battery. He posted on the forums

That's not possible even on a 22kWh with the speed limiter removed, with a hurricane force headwind and going uphill.
The fastest you can discharge the 22kWh battery, potentially doing over 200km/h it would still take over 20 minutes. In that time you'd cover between 60 and 80 km.
And the 34kWh increases battery capacity by 58%.

That's keeping the discharge on the battery within safe limits, if you weren't worried about long term damage...

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bit of typo, i330e

Ah right, on the O'l Wine ?

cros13

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bit of typo, i330e

Ok... that makes more sense.

The EPA range of the 330e is only 22.5km
30km is pretty good going.

There's a lad in work that has a 330e and hogs one of the charge points the entire day !

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bit of typo, i330e

Ah right, on the O'l Wine ?

On the Hols so 1.50 a pint of beer :-)

Maybe better to check his post if you can find it, it was on IEVOA facebook.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

On the Hols so 1.50 a pint of beer :-)

Maybe better to check his post if you can find it, it was on IEVOA facebook.

1.50 a pint ? sweet. We're really ripped off on this Island, the tax on a bottle of Wine is pure extortion !

Orebro

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a lad in work that has a 330e and hogs one of the charge points the entire day !

The arrival of PHEVs is going to be a source of aggro in many workplaces I think!

Orebro

Orebro wrote: »

The arrival of PHEVs is going to be a source of aggro in many workplaces I think!

Ah , even in a 24-30 Kwh Leaf and 6.6 Kw charger I would not need to stay connected to the work charge point all day not even in the 33 Kwh i3 it's just lucky that on my part of the campus there are less people with EV/PHEV.

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

The arrival of PHEVs is going to be a source of aggro in many workplaces I think!

Why? They should use it in equal preference to a BEV. Its not misuse in any shape or form, imo.

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a lad in work that has a 330e and hogs one of the charge points the entire day !

You begrudge a PHEV a charge on your work charge points?!

You can't say thats hogging. If you do you are basically saying PHEV's can only ever use home chargers!

imo he should use the work charger because it probably means he can get to work and home entirely on EV. Thats a good thing.

This isn't the same argument at all as a PHEV (e.g. Outlander) hogging a rapid.


Now if your gripe is that its there all day, well then fair enough, he should move it and let others in once its completed its charge, but thats not a PHEV thing. A BEV could do the same. Its just a case of having a policy onsite that is enforced.

What do you do when charging at work? Do you only utilise the charge space for the 3hrs or so that it spends charging? I thought I remembered you saying you remotely activated the charge a few hours before your shift finishes?

beauf

The only way to fix that is too make it more expensive than home charging. Also limit the no of hours you can use it in a week. Or make it more expensive the more you use it without charging.

So a charge for being connected but not actively charging. With a grace period to return to car etc.

Orebro

KCross wrote: »

Why? They should use it in equal preference to a BEV. Its not misuse in any shape or form, imo.

No it's not misuse but it could be the difference between someone in a BEV needing the charge to get home, and someone in a PHEV letting their car there all day, like in mad lads example with the 330e with their token 20km range battery.

Anyway, see the aggro starting already? :-)

Won't say anymore on it, as it's going to be a touchy point!

KCross

KCross wrote: »

You begrudge a PHEV a charge on your work charge points?!

You can't say thats hogging. If you do you are basically saying PHEV's can only ever use home chargers!

imo he should use the work charger because it probably means he can get to work and home entirely on EV. Thats a good thing.

This isn't the same argument at all as a PHEV (e.g. Outlander) hogging a rapid.


Now if your gripe is that its there all day, well then fair enough, he should move it and let others in once its completed its charge, but thats not a PHEV thing. A BEV could do the same. Its just a case of having a policy onsite that is enforced.

What do you do when charging at work? Do you only utilise the charge space for the 3hrs or so that it spends charging? I thought I remembered you saying you remotely activated the charge a few hours before your shift finishes?

No I couldn't care less how much the PHEV owner uses the network including the DC network as long as they move when needed. On my part of the campus I've told security that I will move if needed , there's less charge points where the plug in cars are so it's more of an issue, it has not been an issue where I am because there are 8 charging spaces and 2 EV owners, I being one of them and I work shift so work 7 days and 7 nights a month and so there much less during regular working hours but If I have to go over to the other part of the Campus I've found myself not being able to plug in several times because there are 4 charging spaces, 2 EV owners and 1 EV owner.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

The only way to fix that is too make it more expensive than home charging. Also limit the no of hours you can use it in a week. Or make it more expensive the more you use it without charging.

So a charge for being connected but not actively charging. With a grace period to return to car etc.

Public charging needs to be priced at a profitable figure, not a punitive figure. There should be no relation to the cost of home charging. If I can provide public chargers at a cost lower than home charging and still make a profit then I should. We will all end up with a better network.

I think it's going to be a while until that point is reached so for the moment a simple profit based pricing (or even break even) should be enough.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

No I couldn't care less how much the PHEV owner uses the network including the DC network as long as they move when needed.

Absolutely.

Same applies to BEV owners too.

The main thing is that the PHEV is pulling the same rate of electricity from those work charge points as most BEV's just that they don't need as long on it as they have smaller batteries so they should move once complete. So should the BEV owners, as they could potentially be complete in 2-3hrs as well.



For work chargers its just a case of the company having an official policy on usage and enforcing it. You'll always have d*ckheads though.

No the company won't enforce anything, they installed them, they're free to use and so it's for the users to sort out among themselves, I'd imagine that if it becomes a problem for management they'll simply remove them but it would be nice if they said that the charging bays are for charging only and when charging is complete to move on and park somewhere else.

As I said though for my main place of work it's not an issue as there are only 2 of us EV owners and 8 charging bays though the vans share these spaces too, forgot about those and they can be plugged in days at a time and not moved.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

....

Public charging needs to be priced at a profitable figure, not a punitive figure. There should be no relation to the cost of home charging. If I can provide public chargers at a cost lower than home charging and still make a profit then I should. We will all end up with a better network.... .

The only way to make the public network a better network is to stop people blocking the chargers.

It seems most EV users rarely use the public charges.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

The only way to make the public network a better network is to stop people blocking the chargers.

It seems most EV users rarely use the public charges.

If most people rarely use them, then why are so many people complaining?

Improving the network is achieved by adding to the network. The network should not be a pay to play system designed around some peoples need to not charge in public. The one off users are terrible customers, I'd rather position my infrastructure in a place with regular customers than where someone might use it once a week.

To me the most important incentive for an operator must be to supply the most kWh in a period of time. This ensures that they use up to date equipment and are incentivised to prevent under utilization, i.e. a PHEV plugging in and using 1/10 of the connection speed.

beauf

Because they can't rely on them?

You are entirely missing the point that people are using them for parking not charging.

Use of the network is high , some parts more than others, individual use may not be so high but as EV numbers grow the demand will also grow especially for people who can't charge at home such as apartment owners and those who live in rented properties.

The problem we have is that the ESB deem the Network adequate for the amount of EVs on the road now.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Because they can't rely on them?

You are entirely missing the point that people are using them for parking not charging.

And your missing my point, right now eCars have zero incentive to do anything about somebody parking in a charging spot. If anything, it's marginally beneficial to them as there is zero electricity used. In the same manner, they have zero incentive to repair a charging station other than the cost of staffing the call centre.

I suppose this thread has gone OT ?

beauf

liamog wrote: »

And your missing my point, right now eCars have zero incentive to do anything about somebody parking in a charging spot. If anything, it's marginally beneficial to them as there is zero electricity used. In the same manner, they have zero incentive to repair a charging station other than the cost of staffing the call centre.

Well if there is zero incentive, then the network will not improve. it will degenerate. People won't buy a EV unless mainly home charging is how they will use it.

From the OP....

stesaurus wrote: »

So I'm taking a step backwards from full EV and moving to a PHEV. A few times i've been badly let down by the infrastructure and only getting 70-80km in the really bad weather was the final straw.....

.. etc.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Well if there is zero incentive, then the network will not improve. it will degenerate. People won't buy a EV unless mainly home charging is how they will use it.

Which is why I think the charging network should be made profitable in such a way that an operator is incentivised to provide as many kW as possible in the shortest time. That way people won't need to make compromise decisions such as going for a PHEV or REX. The balance has to be ensuring that their are enough customers to actual use the network to make it worthwhile.
The punitive charges many people ask for will have an adverse affect on the number of customers and will just as likely drive people to choosing PHEVs for longer journeys.

We really need the CRU to hurry up and sort out the system so we can move past the stalemate from 2015.

beauf

I don't get why you don't see people parking at the chargers as a bigger issue. Without customers there is no need to invest in the network at all. There will be no return.

Microsoft did this with its phones, abandoned its main user base then wondered why the platform withered and died.

Regardless that most people don't use the public chargers that often. The perception is they will, and if they hear all these stories, and see people parking in them, they won't want to move to an EV.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

I don't get why you don't see people parking at the chargers as a bigger issue. Without customers there is no need to invest in the network at all. There will be no return.

Regardless that most people don't use the public chargers that often. The perception is they will, and if they hear all these stories, and see people parking in them, they won't want to move to an EV.

People charging at chargers are customers. Whether they are doing it as part of a long journey, they are using it because they don't have home charging, or they are opportunity charging.
I've looked at the charger nearest to me (Blanch). Using the data from cpinfo.ie it looks like the rapid is being used 8/10 times per day.

Of the last few times I've used rapid chargers, I've had to wait around 10/15 mins for someone to complete their charge, I've not had too much of a problem with people "just parking". Yes people park their car, plug in, and come back when the charging is nearly done. This is pretty reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to support people who park in charging spaces without plugging in, but I think the correct way to address the problem is making it hit the operator in the wallet. The same effect would encourage maintenance in a timely manner.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

...I'm not trying to support people who park in charging spaces without plugging in, but I think the correct way to address the problem is making it hit the operator in the wallet. The same effect would encourage maintenance in a timely manner.

I think the opposite.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

I think the opposite.

You're going to have to explain that one.

It's in my interest for chargers to be available outside of my driveway, and for that charger to provide energy to me as quickly as possible so I can resume my journey.

I want the operator to have the same incentive, charge point available, and energy supplied as quickly as possible. Allowing them to levy a fee per kWh is the best possible way to do this.

Where a charging station becomes congested, the operator should want to expand the number of available points at the station. This increases the total amount of energy that can be supplied and increases availability.

At the moment, if somebody blocks a charger, it's my problem. The operator has zero incentive to move the blocking vehicle. If their revenue stream is blocked, they are far more likely to make an effort to remove the offending vehicles.

Why wouldn't any EV driver want faster charging, and available charging points?

beauf

Operator moving vehicles vs just charging them a fee while not charging...

Complicated vs Simple

Theres a reason it's the last resort of clampers...

liamog

Why would I go to the expense of introducing towing vehicles. Under the current system you have a problem with someone parking at my charger, I don't.

If I'm charging per kWh fees to my customers, then yeah I have a problem too and will want to solve it.

beauf

I'm taking about people parking at a public charger for extended periods, and not charging and thus blocking it. Since that's I thought what the thread was discussing at that point.

We are on different wavelengths. You are taking about your charger and expanding the free charging network.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

I'm taking about people parking at a public charger for extended periods, and not charging and thus blocking it. Since that's I thought what the thread was discussing at that point.

We are on different wavelengths. You are taking about your charger and expanding the free charging network.

No, I'm talking about making people who park at a public charger and block it a problem for the operator. At the moment the operator (eCars) has zero incentive to prevent blocking.

Matt Simis

liamog wrote: »

Where a charging station becomes congested, the operator should want to expand the number of available points at the station. This increases the total amount of energy that can be supplied and increases availability.

At the moment, if somebody blocks a charger, it's my problem. The operator has zero incentive to move the blocking vehicle. If their revenue stream is blocked, they are far more likely to make an effort to remove the offending vehicles.

Why wouldn't any EV driver want faster charging, and available charging points?

I subscribe to your logic!

Casati

stesaurus wrote: »

So I'm taking a step backwards from full EV and moving to a PHEV. A few times i've been badly let down by the infrastructure and only getting 70-80km in the really bad weather was the final straw.
So next week I'm travelling to the UK to pick up a 2017 330e and will be handing back the i3.
I'm going to miss the car so much as its a great car really. 66,000km over 28 months proves that.

I was toying with the idea of another EV with longer range but honestly I couldn't move from the i3 to a Leaf or Ioniq. A 2nd hand Model S was an option but in the end an M Sport spec 330e came up at the right price.
My plan would be to keep it for 1-2 years and then jump to a full EV again when options are more plentiful.

Do I still get to hang out here and bitch?

Very surprised to hear your only getting 70-80km even in the cold weather, I wonder if something is wrong with your car? This is the type of user feedback that scares me big time - ie most people’s commute doesnt decrease as it gets colder

My guess is that your i3 has cost you 20k for two years motoring so even after paying for petrol I can’t see the 330e costing anything like much over the next two years. I guess a three year old 330e would still be worth 20k and the petrol cost for 66000km at 7 l per 100km would be 7k but that assumes you’d never charge it. So simple maths total depreciation and fuel for next two years would be less than 14k and maybe a lot less if you charge it a lot

Question- are you sure mileage won’t affect the half rule? That’s v interesting if that’s the case. How about vehicle condition, if you have a dent in the doors does that also not effect the way half rule works? If that’s the case then this is a big benefit with PCP