A very good article by Cathal Dennehy

average_runner

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/other-sports/opportunity-lost-what-happened-to-irelands-european-u23-cross-country-champions-465244.html

Djoucer

Great piece.

Wottle

Djoucer wrote: »

Great piece.

Yep really enjoyed it. Have had two chats already today regarding it, good banter.

robinph

Interesting that the only one of them still active is also the only one who would have had any kind of support around them who knew anything about the sport, and that also wasn't going to drop them from that support just because of a bad race or an injury.

average_runner

robinph wrote: »

Interesting that the only one of them still active is also the only one who would have had any kind of support around them who knew anything about the sport, and that also wasn't going to drop them from that support just because of a bad race or an injury.

Yep. Support seems to be something missing for alot

Testosterscone

robinph wrote: »

Interesting that the only one of them still active is also the only one who would have had any kind of support around them who knew anything about the sport, and that also wasn't going to drop them from that support just because of a bad race or an injury.

“It’s more of a reward system to reach a certain level and then you get a pat on the back and support,” he says. “Athletes should have some protection if something goes wrong.”

This was a very important point I thought. These athletes are only getting support after they have achieved. Many of these athletes are achieving results in spite of the system and then when they get there the NGB is throwing a bit of money to stake a claim on the athletes development. It's effectively an attempt to buy themselves good PR rather than develop our athletes.

Joe_ Public

Very good and worthwhile piece that raises several important questions. In relation to funding, athletics gets in the region of 800k annually of which about a third goes to carded athletes. Would be interesting to see a breakdown of where the money goes, though has to be said it’s far from an easy task keeping everyone happy off a limited budget.

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

Interesting that the only one of them still active is also the only one who would have had any kind of support around them who knew anything about the sport, and that also wasn't going to drop them from that support just because of a bad race or an injury.

“It’s more of a reward system to reach a certain level and then you get a pat on the back and support,” he says. “Athletes should have some protection if something goes wrong.”

This was a very important point I thought. These athletes are only getting support after they have achieved. Many of these athletes are achieving results in spite of the system and then when they get there the NGB is throwing a bit of money to stake a claim on the athletes development. It's effectively an attempt to buy themselves good PR rather than develop our athletes.

I think the issue is more that there are an awful lot of athletes out there who would find it much easier to train professionally if they got funding, many, many more than can be funded significantly. If you look at the athletes who are receiving support, it's not like that money is supplementing a massive income that they are receiving from other sources in the sport! Most people getting funds are still just scraping by.

There simply isn't enough money in the support to support many professional athletes. Either you are at the very, very top level, or you have a very supportive family, or you find some other income to support you as you train, like so many of the great distance runners of the 80s who fit their training around jobs ( and one effect of the running boom is that there are more opportunities in running related work - physio, coach, running shops).

Ciaran O'Lionaird's father coaches the running club in Macroom.

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

There simply isn't enough money in the support to support many professional athletes.

That is why this sort of reward system is flawed it's designed around those who have already made it or who are being supported. Need to be cost effective with benefiting most for as low as possible

Put it this way which would benefit development more 12,000 a year to an international level athlete or say renting a 4 bed house in Athlone. You could house 4 up and coming athletes with access to top class facilities near by and create a culture of excellence and also pooling on the likes of food etc (or even form a training group) have them accessible to other up and coming athletes in the area and all of a sudden you are influencing 8-10 athletes as opposed to 1 for the diffence of 1-2k (judging by a quick scan of daft.ie for average rent prices)

RayCun

I don't think there are many who would consider a bed in a shared house to be sufficient support. Better than a kick in the teeth, sure, but enough to keep you in the sport?

I suppose for every level of support there are people at the margin for whom that would make all the difference. But I think for guys like the ones in the team above, when they finish college, they find themselves faced with a decision about whether they put their sporting careers first or second. If you think you are on the brink of Olympic qualification, you might decide you are going to give it a year, and maybe a bed in Athlone would make that an easier choice. If not, you have to wonder are you just putting your life on hold for no good reason.

Which is a difference between Irish and Kenyan athletes. Plan B for an Irish distance runner is much better than for a Kenyan.

El Caballo

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think there are many who would consider a bed in a shared house to be sufficient support. Better than a kick in the teeth, sure, but enough to keep you in the sport?

I suppose for every level of support there are people at the margin for whom that would make all the difference. But I think for guys like the ones in the team above, when they finish college, they find themselves faced with a decision about whether they put their sporting careers first or second. If you think you are on the brink of Olympic qualification, you might decide you are going to give it a year, and maybe a bed in Athlone would make that an easier choice. If not, you have to wonder are you just putting your life on hold for no good reason.

Which is a difference between Irish and Kenyan athletes. Plan B for an Irish distance runner is much better than for a Kenyan.

I agree with a lot of that Ray and see where you're coming from but I also think that you can't underestimate the value and support of being part of a team and the spirit it instills in athletes. Look at the success of the marathon mission.

You see a lot of this on Letsrun in the why did you stop running threads with post-collegiate guys. Many of them say that they felt isolated when the team environment was gone that they had when they were in College. As much of an individual sport as athletics is, you still can't beat having a group of like minded people coming together to chase the goal. Of course careers and money will come into the equation but I think with the right breeding ground, many more may see a bit of light of light at the end of the tunnel and it's certainly a better option than what they have now which is nothing either in terms of support or funding.

S.L.F.

robinph wrote: »

Interesting that the only one of them still active is also the only one who would have had any kind of support around them who knew anything about the sport, and that also wasn't going to drop them from that support just because of a bad race or an injury.

I don't really agree with you there, i think through Johns own admission he wasn't making it as an International athlete so he went out to work.

"I wasn’t making the Olympics or Europeans on the track so you eventually have to grow up and start earning money,” he says. “There are some people who hang on trying to be professional athletes even though they’re not, and they’re kidding themselves.”

Although everyone knows there is no support network or enough sponsorship here in Ireland and there never will be.

It seems we're just a tiny nation, with a small interest in Athletics and every now and again a really talented, driven athlete comes along and trains in the states and is developed there.

When they come back they always get the hero's welcome they deserve and are treated like royalty.

O'Lionaird said it like it is, if you want it you have to go off and do it yourself. Even in Britain some of the top runners have to go off to the states to develop and train with the best to be the best.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

I don't really agree with you there, i think through Johns own admission he wasn't making it as an International athlete so he went out to work.

"I wasn’t making the Olympics or Europeans on the track so you eventually have to grow up and start earning money,” he says. “There are some people who hang on trying to be professional athletes even though they’re not, and they’re kidding themselves.”

Although everyone knows there is no support network or enough sponsorship here in Ireland and there never will be.

It seems we're just a tiny nation, with a small interest in Athletics and every now and again a really talented, driven athlete comes along and trains in the states and is developed there.

When they come back they always get the hero's welcome they deserve and are treated like royalty.

O'Lionaird said it like it is, if you want it you have to go off and do it yourself. Even in Britain some of the top runners have to go off to the states to develop and train with the best to be the best.

Derval O’Rourke, David Gillick, Thomas Barr. 4th, 6th and 4th at global outdoor level. None of them went to the states.

*Gillick did, but after his 6th at Worlds, and it didn’t work out at all*

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Derval O’Rourke, David Gillick, Thomas Barr. 4th, 6th and 4th at global outdoor level. None of them went to the states.

To be fair Gillick was based in Loughborough

Also add English, Heffernan, Mageean (during her development period)

In fact O Lionaird off the top of my head is the only medalists at senior level off top of my head in the last 10 years

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Derval O’Rourke, David Gillick, Thomas Barr. 4th, 6th and 4th at global outdoor level. None of them went to the states.

Never said for one minute they did, but one would argue that they could have done even better if they had have. But were they driven enough to leave everything behind...

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

Never said for one minute they did, but one would argue that they could have done even better if they had have. But were they driven enough to leave everything behind...

Not sure about that to be honest. Collegiate system isn’t for everyone. Many burn out from it. Also I remember Derval saying she’s a homebird which is why she didn’t stay long in the UK. Doesn’t matter how good a setup is, if you are not happy, then it won’t work. Homesickness can be crippling.

O’Rourke and Barr have succeeded because they managed to get their own setup in order with world class volunteer coaches (Cahill’s and Harrison’s). Definitely examples of those who suceed in spite of the system.

There are tons of World Chanpions who have never trained in the USA, across all disciplines. Suggesting somebody wouldn’t be driven enough to go there is bizarre.

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think there are many who would consider a bed in a shared house to be sufficient support. Better than a kick in the teeth, sure, but enough to keep you in the sport?

I suppose for every level of support there are people at the margin for whom that would make all the difference. But I think for guys like the ones in the team above, when they finish college, they find themselves faced with a decision about whether they put their sporting careers first or second. If you think you are on the brink of Olympic qualification, you might decide you are going to give it a year, and maybe a bed in Athlone would make that an easier choice. If not, you have to wonder are you just putting your life on hold for no good reason.
.

Some may not take that choice but for some it's an extra year to give it a shot

I'll give you an example there was a guy who finished college in states a few years back, came home and and moved down the country just to keep costs down as family we're supporting him. The extra year gave him a chance to get a shoe contract and he has regularly been making Irish teams.

Similarly I have seen atleast a few the cusp of who have been surviving on dole while chasing the dream. 12,000 wouldn't change any lives but better to ease things for four to a similar extent than on is what I mean.

Testosterscone

S.L.F. wrote: »

Never said for one minute they did, but one would argue that they could have done even better if they had have. But were they driven enough to leave everything behind...

Gillick did go to the states after his National record and joined training group in Florida. It didn't work out and he was back after a year

Similarly Gregan did same to U.K. And came back and had his best year since his return

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not sure about that to be honest. Collegiate system isn’t for everyone. Many burn out from it. Also I remember Derval saying she’s a homebird which is why she didn’t stay long in the UK. Doesn’t matter how good a setup is, if you are not happy, then it won’t work. Homesickness can be crippling.

O’Rourke and Barr have succeeded because they managed to get their own setup in order with world class volunteer coaches (Cahill’s and Harrison’s). Definitely examples of those who suceed in spite of the system.

There are tons of World Chanpions who have never trained in the USA, across all disciplines. Suggesting somebody wouldn’t be driven enough to go there is bizarre.

Nothing bizarre about it, you get the gist of what I'm saying. Most athletes need to go away to train with the best. They need to withstand the drawbacks and not burn out. That's the whole package isn't it?

The tons you're talking about have a decent set-up in their own country like the Jamaicans, Kenyan's etc.

Just wondering, when O'Rourke won that gold if the favourite's were in that race do you remember?

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

Nothing bizarre about it, you get the gist of what I'm saying. Most athletes need to go away to train with the best. They need to withstand the drawbacks and not burn out. That's the whole package isn't it?

The tons you're talking about have a decent set-up in their own country like the Jamaicans, Kenyan's etc.

Just wondering, when O'Rourke won that gold if the favourite's were in that race do you remember?

When she won world Indoors Suzanna Kallur was third, and she’s the WR holder for the 60m hurdles.

O’Rourke came 4th in the outdoor Worlds, against the very best the world has to offer. That’s more than any distance runner in last 17 years who went off to the USA can say!

Joe_ Public

Whether it means much most of our successful athletes of the past 20-25 years haven’t gone stateside collegiate route. I grew up with the consensus that you simply had to go in order to be serious about a track career. Derval helped explode that myth and others followed. It’s still an option, a good one to have, but that’s all it is.

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

When she won world Indoors Suzanna Kallur was third, and she’s the WR holder for the 60m hurdles.

O’Rourke came 4th in the outdoor Worlds, against the very best the world has to offer. That’s more than any distance runner in last 17 years who went off to the USA can say!

That wasnt what I asked though, I'm trying to remember the race where she won but the two top favourites were out at the time.

I'd argue that Sonia who went state side would clean the floor with anyone you mentioned and Coghlan too.

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

When she won world Indoors Suzanna Kallur was third, and she’s the WR holder for the 60m hurdles.

O’Rourke came 4th in the outdoor Worlds, against the very best the world has to offer. That’s more than any distance runner in last 17 years who went off to the USA can say!

I'm not arguing with you that its clear O'Rourke is the best hurdler Ireland has ever had but for me personally I always thought she was unreliable and she had an element of luck as well.

You could easily say someone was a world record holder and someone beat them. People go off form or past it, eventually they will be beaten.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

That wasnt what I asked though, I'm trying to remember the race where she won but the two top favourites were out at the time.

I'd argue that Sonia who went state side would clean the floor with anyone you mentioned and Coghlan too.

She won the world indoors. World indoors never has all the best athletes at it. She ran 7.84 though which is phenomenally fast.

Since Sonia we’ve had bugger all athletes suceed who went down the US route. COL came 10th in Daegu but his career was crocked with non stop injury. Hardly an endorsement of the US route. Can’t think of any other success stories.

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

She won the world indoors. World indoors never has all the best athletes at it. She ran 7.84 though which is phenomenally fast.

Since Sonia we’ve had bugger all athletes suceed who went down the US route. COL came 10th in Daegu but his career was crocked with non stop injury. Hardly an endorsement of the US route. Can’t think of any other success stories.

Sure reading about Irish Athletics in general most athletes are skipping the country for blocks at a time doing their training somewhere abroad. Even the ones who are not world class are altitude training with athletes of higher calibre. Still being classified as home grown.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

Sure reading about Irish Athletics in general most athletes are skipping the country for blocks at a time doing their training somewhere abroad. Even the ones who are not world class are altitude training with athletes of higher calibre. Still being classified as home grown.

Bit of a difference going abroad for a month to do altitude training or warm weather training and actually emigrating.

I’m not saying the US route is bad. It works for some, not for others. Barr and Derval have shown you can be world class living here. Gillick and Hession showed you can be world class by going to the UK. The US of A is not a necessity at all. Be interesting to see how Siofra does from it. She looked shattered in Amsterdam and London from so much racing for her university. Burn out is a real concern.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

I'm not arguing with you that its clear O'Rourke is the best hurdler Ireland has ever had but for me personally I always thought she was unreliable and she had an element of luck as well.

You could easily say someone was a world record holder and someone beat them. People go off form or past it, eventually they will be beaten.

Luck? Please enlighten me.

Unreliable? She produced national outdoor records at the 2006 Europeans, 2009 Worlds and 2010 Europeans, finishing 2nd, 4th and 2nd (behind a filthy drug cheat). She produced her best when it mattered. We’ve had no other athlete bar Sonia who was such a Championship performer.

If that’s unreliable I’d like to see what’s reliable.

Good heavens. What an incredible post.

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Luck? Please enlighten me.

Unreliable? She produced national outdoor records at the 2006 Europeans, 2009 Worlds and 2010 Europeans, finishing 2nd, 4th and 2nd (behind a filthy drug cheat).

If that’s unreliable I’d like to see what’s reliable.

Good heavens.

I just remember I would sit down to watch her run and you never knew if she was going to perform or not, with injury or whatever was going on.

There was a couple of years between those victories you mentioned there, looking back its an impressive sheet no doubt about it but there were many races were she didn't perform and didn't even make the finals.

You could always count on Sonia, Coghlan, Markus O'Sullivan to at least get top 5 in the race finals consistently every season year in year out for their particular time in the sun.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

I just remember I would sit down to watch her run and you never knew if she was going to perform or not, with injury or whatever was going on.

There was a couple of years between those victories you mentioned there, looking back its an impressive sheet no doubt about it but there were many races were she didn't perform and didn't even make the finals.

You could always count on Sonia, Coghlan, Markus O'Sullivan to at least get top 5 in the race finals consistently every season year in year out for their particular time in the sun.

Are you for real? Marcus did F all in Championships Outdoors. He has one 8th place finish in the Olympics. Nothing else. All his success was indoors.

Derval had 2 bad years in 2007 and 2008 (she still finished in top 16 at Worlds in 2007), but so did Sonia in 1996 and 1997.

Derval has 2 outdoor European medals. Coghlan has 1. Coghlan won a world title too which was essentially a European title as the Africans hadn’t emerged. Not to take away from such an enormous achievement, but it has to be said. He was no more reliable than Derval was.

Anything can happen in hurdles. It’s such an unpredictable event, so to hit national outdoor records in 3 out of 5 major outdoor championships from 2006-2010 is absolutely remarkable.

Chivito550

S.L.F. wrote: »

I just remember I would sit down to watch her run and you never knew if she was going to perform or not, with injury or whatever was going on.

There was a couple of years between those victories you mentioned there, looking back its an impressive sheet no doubt about it but there were many races were she didn't perform and didn't even make the finals.

You could always count on Sonia, Coghlan, Markus O'Sullivan to at least get top 5 in the race finals consistently every season year in year out for their particular time in the sun.

Also please explain how luck came into it. Does somebody fluke a 12.65 clocking in a European final?