PSO Levy

Eskarina Smith

Hi there,
I have discovered that the charity I work for is being charged a PSO rate enormously greater than it should be. The MIC allocated to their small suit of rooms would allow them to run a small factory; it is very much higher than they would ever need. What is the best way to go about changing this?
Esk.

Electric Ireland: Brige B

Hi Esk,

Thanks for getting in touch.

The Maximum Import Capacity is not determined by Electric Ireland, but by ESB Networks.

ESB Networks designed the electricity network to provide customers with an electricity supply that is in accordance with the specified Maximum Import Capacity (MIC).

However, if electrical equipment has been added or removed from the premises the MIC may no longer reflect the customer's needs.

As such, ESB Networks have a facility available for customers to apply to have the MIC evaluated and changed, if necessary. Details on how to change this for both business and residential customers can be found online here.

We hope this helps. Should you have any questions regarding Electric Ireland, please don't hesitate to get in touch.

Thanks,
Brige

emeldc

OP, I just had my MIC reduced from 40KVA to 29KVA (minimum for 3 phase power). This will save me €340 per bi-monthly bill or approx €1800+ P/A. I think it's an absolute disgrace that no one tells the consumer that they are being over supplied with power that they cannot and will not ever use and yet you get crucified if you happen to use more than your allocated MIC. The method for calculating how much power you need is far from an exact science and in my case was grossly exaggerated. I recon it has cost me between €8k -€10k over 10 years. 

Eskarina Smith

Electric Ireland: Brige wrote: »

Hi Esk,

Thanks for getting in touch.

The Maximum Import Capacity is not determined by Electric Ireland, but by ESB Networks.

ESB Networks designed the electricity network to provide customers with an electricity supply that is in accordance with the specified Maximum Import Capacity (MIC).

However, if electrical equipment has been added or removed from the premises the MIC may no longer reflect the customer's needs.

As such, ESB Networks have a facility available for customers to apply to have the MIC evaluated and changed, if necessary. Details on how to change this for both business and residential customers can be found online here.

We hope this helps. Should you have any questions regarding Electric Ireland, please don't hesitate to get in touch.

Thanks,
Brige

Thanks for your prompt response Brige. I've downloaded the form and will get the ball rolling. 
While somebody in the organisation should have spotted the issue before now, I do feel that as a supplier, Electric Ireland (and other electricity suppliers) should have some level of duty to their customers to encourage them to check their bills and standing charges occasionally. In this case, the PSO is around 40% of each bill - an outrageous amount! The electricity use in no way matches up with the PSO level on the bill. It doesn't look like there's any hope of a refund either.

Eskarina Smith

emeldc wrote: »

OP, I just had my MIC reduced from 40KVA to 29KVA (minimum for 3 phase power). This will save me €340 per bi-monthly bill or approx €1800+ P/A. I think it's an absolute disgrace that no one tells the consumer that they are being over supplied with power that they cannot and will not ever use and yet you get crucified if you happen to use more than your allocated MIC. The method for calculating how much power you need is far from an exact science and in my case was grossly exaggerated. I recon it has cost me between €8k -€10k over 10 years. 

Thanks emeldc,
Well done on spotting it and making the change.
I work in a suite of small meeting rooms and an office with one computer and peripherals etc. No Server, no tools,the only heavy use "equipment" besides the heaters is a Burco boiler! I've no idea how long they've been paying this PSO rate, but my guess is years. The change should save about €900 per year.

Can I ask, did you have to engage an electrical engineer to help you complete the form? Since the division in rates happens after 29KVA, should we just request 29KVA or go for a more realistic 15KVA?

I'd be grateful for any advice you can give.

Esk.

emeldc

Yes, you will need to employ an electrician to help you fill out the form. If all you are using is light and heat and a few plug ins, it’s unlikely you would need any more than 15kva. Ask the electrician to contact ESB Networks for you. They should be able to tell him how much you are drawing from the network. You can then use this as a guide to apply for a reduction in the MIC according to your needs.

Eskarina Smith

Thanks again emeldc.

Electric Ireland: Aoife

Hi Esk, 

We regret any confusion.

The exact circumstances of properties are not available to Electric Ireland. As such, we strongly recommend all customers regularly check their bills.

Should you have any other questions that we can help you with, please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks, 
Aoife

minikin

Small business customer here, have just checked last bill: Actual electricity usage: €90.46, total bill including standing charges and pso levy and vat on same €431.84.

Disgusted that this hasn't been mentioned by electric ireland before ... does electric ireland get any proportion of this pso levy?

emeldc

minikin wrote: »

Small business customer here, have just checked last bill: Actual electricity usage: €90.46, total bill including standing charges and pso levy and vat on same €431.84.

Disgusted that this hasn't been mentioned by electric ireland before ... does electric ireland get any proportion of this pso levy?

In fairness AFAIK Electric Ireland have nothing to do with it. It's just a tax that's collected by them. By the sound of it your supply is greater than 29KVA which means you get charged (€3.50?) per kva p/m rather than the standard €30? p/m charge when it's below 29kva. Educate yourself a little on it and then get an electrician in to help with the form NC3.
PDF link wont work. Google Form NC3

minikin

emeldc wrote: »

minikin wrote: »

Small business customer here, have just checked last bill: Actual electricity usage: €90.46, total bill including standing charges and pso levy and vat on same €431.84.

Disgusted that this hasn't been mentioned by electric ireland before ... does electric ireland get any proportion of this pso levy?

In fairness AFAIK Electric Ireland have nothing to do with it. It's just a tax that's collected by them. By the sound of it your supply is greater than 29KVA which means you get charged (€3.50?) per kva p/m rather than the standard €30? p/m charge when it's below 29kva. Educate yourself a little on it and then get an electrician in to help with the form NC3.
PDF link wont work. Google Form NC3

Thanks for the response emeldc but 'in fairness' they're the professionals when it comes to charging for electricity.
They know my exact usage and surely could have an automated system to indicate that their customers usage profile are not inline with the MIC.
I'm neither an electrician nor an electrical engineer, I'm paying electric ireland for a service - they're supposed to be the experts.

This is the first I've heard that it was possible to be on an inappropriate MIC.
Looks like I've been overcharged over €7,000+vat since I switched to them.


I'm sure the additional cash flow hasn't done them any harm in that time, no wonder they kept quiet about it.
Disgusted, can you trust utilities suppliers about anything anymore? You've to watch everyone like a hawk.

emeldc

minikin wrote: »

emeldc wrote: »

minikin wrote: »

Small business customer here, have just checked last bill: Actual electricity usage: €90.46, total bill including standing charges and pso levy and vat on same €431.84.

Disgusted that this hasn't been mentioned by electric ireland before ... does electric ireland get any proportion of this pso levy?

In fairness AFAIK Electric Ireland have nothing to do with it. It's just a tax that's collected by them. By the sound of it your supply is greater than 29KVA which means you get charged (€3.50?) per kva p/m rather than the standard €30? p/m charge when it's below 29kva. Educate yourself a little on it and then get an electrician in to help with the form NC3.
PDF link wont work. Google Form NC3

Thanks but 'in fairness' they're the professionals when it comes to charging for electricity.
They know my exact usage and surely could have an automated system to indicate that their customers are not on an inappropriate MIC.
I'm neither an electrician nor an electrical engineer, I'm paying electric ireland for a service - they're supposed to be the experts.

This is the first I've heard that it was possible to be on an inappropriate MIC.
Looks like I've been overcharged over €6,000+vat since I switched to them.


I'm sure the additional cash flow hasn't done them any harm in that time, no wonder they kept quiet about it.
Disgusted, can you trust utilities suppliers about anything anymore? You've to watch everyone like a hawk.

It doesn't matter which supplier you're with. It's tax. I'm not speaking for EI but they're collecting the PSO levy just as you collect VAT for the revenue. But I agree, there should be some mechanism in place to flag under-use.

minikin

emeldc wrote: »

It doesn't matter which supplier you're with. It's tax. I'm not speaking for EI but they're collecting the PSO levy just as you collect VAT for the revenue. But I agree, there should be some mechanism in place to flag under-use.

I understand that you're playing devils advocate here, and appreciate you doing so as Electric Ireland don't seem too chatty at the moment.

Well, it's a levy rather than a tax (which would go to the exchequer) in that it goes to ESB networks then to Eirgrid and then to the pso-supported generators/suppliers.

Are Electric Ireland (who are simply the retail arm of ESB) a pso-supported generator or supplier?
If they are then they directly benefit in a financial sense from this 'confusion'. 

Electric Ireland: Una

Hi folks,

We wish to reassure that we always aim to reach each public query within two hours.

We need to advise that commercial related queries do need to be put to the Electric Ireland Business team as we just look after residential account queries here on Social Media.

Regards,
Una

minikin

Electric Ireland: Una wrote: »

Hi folks,

We wish to reassure that we always aim to reach each public query within two hours.

We need to advise that commercial related queries do need to be put to the Electric Ireland Business team as we just look after residential account queries here on Social Media.

Regards,
Una

Thank you Una, I'll be in touch with your colleagues wearing the E.I. business jerseys and report back here for the benefit of the boards community. As, were it not for this thread I would not have known anything about this massive overcharge.

Eskarina Smith

Minikin I would imagine there are hundreds, probably thousands of small-medium enterprises out there that are in the same boat - allocated an MIC hugely greater than they will ever require and paying a PSO levy out of all proportion to their useage. I'm no spring chicken and I don't recall ever seeing a public service advert/announcement/anything clearly informing the public or business owners about the PSO levy and how to check that your bill is fair. Now, that's not to say this information has never been put out there, but if it has it certainly went over my head.

Electric Ireland: Aoife

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Hi all,[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]In addition to the post by my colleague Una, please see below.[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Electric Ireland are unable to adjust the Maximum Import Capacity (MIC) on a property. This needs to be done through ESB Networks, who maintain the electricity network for all electricity suppliers (including Electric Ireland). The level of MIC will determine the amount of the PSO Levy.[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]The MIC is the capacity of electricity that ESB Networks will deliver to the property.[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]In order to gauge the appropriateness of your MIC, you should analyse a full year of electricity usage at your premises. See here for a general guide on calculating an appropriate MIC.[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Once the bills have been analysed, you will need to consult with an independent electrical contractor before making a request to ESB Networks to change your MIC. See here for more information. You can find contact details for ESB Networks here.[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]For any specific queries relating to billing of non-residential properties, we recommend calling our colleagues in the Business team on 1850 372 787 (9am-5:30pm Monday to Friday).[/font]


[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Thanks,[/font]
[font=Calibri, sans-serif]Aoife[/font]

Eskarina Smith

Hi again,
I was successful in getting the office's PSO levy reduced, resulting in savings of approx. €150 per bill! I'd urge everyone using a business premises or hall to check their PSO levy. If your MIC is 30kva, it could be well worth asking an electrical engineer to check your bills and useage. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Here's what I did:

• Got information from the link posted by Brige above: https://www.esbnetworks.ie/existing-connection/increasing-decreasing-supply/changing-your-level-of--supply 
• Downloaded the form under Step 1 here: https://www.esbnetworks.ie/existing-connection/increasing-decreasing-supply/business-user
• Nabbed the very obliging electrical engineer 😬 who looks after our landlord's complex and sweet-talked him into helping me complete the form at no cost to us, very good of him.
• Sent it in to the ESB.
• A local engineer came out to check that our rating could safely be reduced at no cost.
• ESB reduced the rate and informed our supplier (Electric Ireland).
• Organisation saving a small fortune!
  

[*]

I haven't got a pay rise yet in thanks but I'm working on it 😜

Esk.

Community Hall Vicarstown

Well done Eskarina Smith on getting this adjusted for your organisation. You deserve a pay rise.

I am part of a voluntary organisation who were affected by the same PSO overcharging. We have since adjusted our MIC to an appropriate level and got reduction from this in PSO charges. However since PSO charges were introduced in 2009 we have been overcharged to the extent of €10,000.

We have requested repayment from ESB Networks of this money. They refuse saying that it is the responsibility of each connected property owner/occupier to request the correct MIC. They also say they had no responsibility to inform likely affected property owners/occupiers of the financial implications of incorrect MIC after PSO was introduced and subsequently increased significantly. We appealed their refusal to repay to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities who upheld their decision. In our opinion this appeal process was just a false facade aligned with ESB Networks.

We intend to follow the process further through political and legal routes. We have the Minister For Justice and the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in our constituency and we are also looking for legal assistance on a conditional fee arrangement. 

There are thousands of small businesses and voluntary organisations out there that are and have been overcharged due to inexpertness/lack of knowledge. ESB Networks have done nothing to address this even though they are well aware and it is well covered in their new connection literature.

We seek similarly affected individuals/small businesses/voluntary organisations to join us in this quest. Contact can be made at communityhallvicarstownatgmail.com

I will also set up a new post for this.