Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eh?
Have you a link to back that up?

What did DeV receive from his trip to America during the War of Independence?

Do I really need to find a link for that? Seriously?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

What did DeV receive from his trip to America during the War of Independence?

Do I really need to find a link for that? Seriously?

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

Duckworth_Luas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

I remember reading the book DevValera in America. I was surprised by how much of a cause celebre Irish Independence was in the USA at the time. Not just among Irish immigrants and Irish Americans, but among the general population. He was filling major league baseball stadiums for speeches.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Worldwide support in the 1920s/1930s?

no, world wide support during the troubles from 1969 to 1998. the 1920s really aren't relevant to this discussion.

Deleted User wrote: »

The British government could easily leave "out-dated" weaponry behind "off the books". Without trying hard, I can think of a dozen scams relating to the maintenance of weaponry which would allow plenty to be lost/stolen/etc over the months prior to leaving. It's not as if the British government hasn't supplied paramilitary groups before...

the british could do this, yes.
they will do this, no
britain wants out of northern ireland, they will not give support to the loyalists this time.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did he not return with over half a million dollars?

Good point. I stand corrected. Thanks.

P_1

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

On the subject of scaremongering...

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

.... really aren't relevant to this discussion..

Nor is your evidence. I'm done with you.

joe40

A united ireland will ultimately depend on economics. I don't think that a majority of northern nationalists would opt for a united ireland if there was an economic price to pay. The population in the north are used to NHS, paying nothing for schoolbooks etc. When push comes to shove the I don't think "patriotism" would swing it. Much like the case with the scottish referendum.

bodice ripper

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

This is hysterical. In both senses of the word.

SeanSouth

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event. I don't want it and nobody that I know, wants it. The unionists don't want it and dare i say that most of the catholic community in NI doesn't want it. SinnFein and the British government want it !!

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.

joe40

[

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.[/quote]

You're on your own with that opinion. We have our problems but britain is far from perfect. I would take this country with its failings any day

end of the road

SeanSouth wrote: »

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event. I don't want it and nobody that I know, wants it. The unionists don't want it and dare i say that most of the catholic community in NI doesn't want it. SinnFein and the British government want it !!

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.

no, no we really don't need the brits to sort out the political problems in this country, given that the brits political establishment are a a billion times more of a ****show then ours ever could be. ireland will not be reuniting with britain, as i said there are plenty of us who will insure it won't happen. ireland as part of britain would take us back to the 1950s.

maryishere

joe40 wrote: »

I would take this country with its failings any day

I would also take this country, but I would take it further and quicker if it had the NHS, cheaper vehicle prices / less vrt and vat tax, had not gombeen politicians who only worried about feathering their own nests etc.

maryishere

It (a United Ireland) is not going to happen, at least not in our lifetime, we can all agree on that.

Thank God the UK govt is still involved in N.I., we should be begging them to stay.

All My Stars Aligned

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

WTF????

Your posts here are absolutely idiotic. On a scale of 1 - 10 the above is ****ing off the charts. When asked to provide some evidence as to how the ROI would financially support NI you can't. Why? Because the ROI cannot financially support itself in any sort of sustainable way. As other posters have said, our entire economy revolves around property and tax breaks to foreign multinationals. The EU would in no way want or allow one of its member states taking on a financial sinkhole like NI.

Pease do us all a favour and crawl back under your Bobby Sands duvet cover.

FrancieBrady

SeanSouth wrote: »

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event..

Events, dear boy, events.
In a very short series of events we now have a FG Taoiseach making noises about a UI and senior members of his cabinet.
If I or anyone else predicted that even a year ago, we would have been laughed off Boards.

Just shows anyone who cares to look at reality, that the failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Events, dear boy, events.
In a very short series of events we now have a FG Taoiseach making noises about a UI and senior members of his cabinet.
If I or anyone else predicted that even a year ago, we would have been laughed off Boards.

Just shows anyone who cares to look at reality, that the failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position.

and taking on a completely failed state would really help make that ok? what a stupid argument.

SeanSouth

Well if the leader of FG said it, it must be true :rolleyes:

maryishere

lol. Which is failed statelet is in a very vulnerable and perilous position?

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and taking on a completely failed state would really help make that ok? what a stupid argument.

Well Leo doesn't seem to have a problem with it and doesn't think it will lose him any votes. That tell you anything?
When a FG Taoiseach is talking positively about it, something is afoot, be assured of that

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well Leo doesn't seem to have a problem with it and doesn't think it will lose him any votes. That tell you anything?
When a FG Taoiseach is talking positively about it, something is afoot, be assured of that

you dont think he is actually serious, do you?

maryishere

He was more serious when he compared his first time in Downing Street to the antics of Hugh Grant's fictitious Prime Minister in schlocky Christmas staple Love Actually.

Could be worse, we could have elected and sent Danny Healy Rae or the lad from the south east in the pink t-shirt or the pot-smokin lad from the midlands (now an MEP) or some other lad who was never in the IRA, even though everyone knows he was.

Leo ain't the worst of the bunch.

blanch152

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

What is the definition of patriotism? From Wikipedia:

"Patriotism is the ideology of attachment to a homeland. This attachment can be a combination of many different features relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism.[1][2][3] An excess of patriotism in the defense of a nation is called chauvinism; another related term is jingoism."


We certainly see a lot of chauvinism and jingoism when it comes to Northern Ireland and unification.

What is our homeland? We have never had a united Ireland except under the rule of an English King. Should patriotism mean we rejoin the Commonwealth? Or should we yearning further back to when Cuige Uladh was its own kingdom separate from the rest of Ireland? Should we be embracing the future and swearing fealty to the European Union?

Patriotism is a moveable feast like nationalism, you cannot be definitive on it. Is it only patriotic to support GAA?

Frankly, patriotims suffers by its association with nationalism which is an outdated nonsense concept.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well Leo doesn't seem to have a problem with it and doesn't think it will lose him any votes. That tell you anything?
When a FG Taoiseach is talking positively about it, something is afoot, be assured of that

Do you agree with him that a united Ireland requires cross-community support in the North?

wotzgoingon

My personal view is we should round up every protestant and tell them to hell or to england.







It happened the Irish and before people say it was a different time, was it really? They thought they were more advanced than years before them.

end of the road

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

WTF????

Your posts here are absolutely idiotic. On a scale of 1 - 10 the above is ****ing off the charts. When asked to provide some evidence as to how the ROI would financially support NI you can't. Why? Because the ROI cannot financially support itself in any sort of sustainable way. As other posters have said, our entire economy revolves around property and tax breaks to foreign multinationals. The EU would in no way want or allow one of its member states taking on a financial sinkhole like NI.

Pease do us all a favour and crawl back under your Bobby Sands duvet cover.

this is all inaccurate. it will be in britain and the EU'S interest for north and south to reunify as one state. NI is in the way it is because britain is keeping it that way.

wotzgoingon wrote: »

My personal view is we should round up every protestant and tell them to hell or to england.

i have to disagree. protestants aren't the problem. 99% of them are good decent people. extreme loyalists are the problem and would be the candidates for your solution. those people would be in a small minority and don't even have support from their own community, who would gladly see the back of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Should patriotism be considered a virtue in the first place?

blanch152

end of the road wrote: »

eventually it's going to get to the stage where what the majority want or don't want won't matter. reunification will happen and it will be forced. britain wants out of NI and they will reduce spending on it accordingly and both it and the EU will force both north and south together via trade embargo's and sanctions if needs be. so people would be stupid not to vote for reunification as what britain and the EU will do if reunification doesn't happen would damage the country more then reunification ever could. reunification is going to happen, it would be better if it is voted for then forced.

This is one of the silliest posts I have seen on boards in a long time.

The UK have signed up to an international agreement - the GFA - that says they will respect the wishes of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland. There is no possible way that they can just get rid of Northern Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

wotzgoingon wrote: »

My personal view is we should round up every protestant and tell them to hell or to england.

... and if they politely decline both options in favour of staying put?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you agree with him that a united Ireland requires cross-community support in the North?

Those who signed up to the GFA agreed to support the majority of the people's decision when it comes to a vote.
So cross community support will be there.
As there will be for a failed vote.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

maryishere

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Should patriotism be considered a virtue in the first place?

Good point, most of the worst crimes committed during the troubles were committed by "patriots" / those who considered themselves the most patriotic.

wotzgoingon

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... and if they politely decline both options in favour of staying put?

Do you not know your own history we kill them to hell. That's what the whole to hell or to england means.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

wotzgoingon wrote: »

Do you not know your own history we kill them to hell. That's what the whole to hell or to england means.

I wondered if that's what you meant. As to me knowing my own history (and by "my own" you'd mean European in my case) then yes, yes I do - and that knowledge tells me it's been attempted twice over the the last century or so and ending the same way on both occasions: millions of murders and several "patriots" standing trial for war crimes.

Panrich

SeanSouth wrote: »

United Ireland will never happen as a stand alone event. I don't want it and nobody that I know, wants it. The unionists don't want it and dare i say that most of the catholic community in NI doesn't want it. SinnFein and the British government want it !!

The only sensible progression would be to unite the entire island of Ireland with the entire island of Britain. We need the Britts to sort out the political messes in this country. How long more can our gombeen politicians be entrusted with the failed health service, the failed police force, the homeless crises, the infrastructure crisis etc etc etc.

You mean the likes of May Davis Johnson and Gove?

No thanks.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you dont think he is actually serious, do you?

A FG Taoiseach being 'serious'?

No, not at all, FG politicians will play games with northern Ireland people and use it as a bandwagon. He is indeed being mercenary.

What do you think is motivating his comments? He's climbing onto a bandwagon which is heading inexorably to where he wants to be and he knows it.

exaisle

I'm getting kinda sick of all these "United Ireland" trolls....zzzzzzzz

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A FG Taoiseach being 'serious'?

No, not at all, FG politicians will play games with northern Ireland people and use it as a bandwagon. He is indeed being mercenary.

What do you think is motivating his comments? He's climbing onto a bandwagon which is heading inexorably to where he wants to be and he knows it.

I think you mean incendiary :D:D

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

I think you mean incendiary :D:D

I have no doubt that Unionists and their fellow travellers might find it 'incendiary' (bless their little insecure snowflake identities ) but I assure you I meant 'mercenary'.

All My Stars Aligned

end of the road wrote: »

i have to disagree. protestants aren't the problem. 99% of them are good decent people. extreme loyalists are the problem and would be the candidates for your solution. those people would be in a small minority and don't even have support from their own community, who would gladly see the back of them.

From about 1986 onward the PIRA did not have the support from their own community and never had the support of the people of the ROI. This didn't stop the murdering terrorists though. BTW, there's a difference between having support and being feared.

And as for your theory about the US and GB forcing UI, you are talking through your hoop.

Obi_Wan_Kenobi

Absolutely not, I'm Irish and would not want the 6 counties back.

The amount of hassle it would cause and the cost !!

NAh, keep them in the UK thanks.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Another question is: why world the unionists want to be a part of a United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Another question is: why world the unionists want to be a part of a United Ireland?

Well their name should give you a clue. They are British Unionists. Of course they would prefer to stay in the UK.
But northern Ireland has always been a contested space and unionists as well as nationalists signed up to the GFA.
That agreement states that both sides will agree to abide by the majority decision.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Another question is: why world the unionists want to be a part of a United Ireland?

Well their name should give you a clue. They are British Unionists. Of course they would prefer to stay in the UK.
But northern Ireland has always been a contested space and unionists as well as nationalists signed up to the GFA.
That agreement states that both sides will agree to abide by the majority decision.

Question was 'why'?

My point is: it's a bit rich to decry people for not being patriotic and then to steamroll over someone else's patriotism simply because they're in a minority.

FrancieBrady

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Question was 'why'?

My point is: it's a bit rich to decry people for not being patriotic and then to steamroll over someone else's patriotism simply because they're in a minority.

Whose is going to steamroll anybody? It will be a democratic vote based on a hard fought internationally binding agreement which some people haven't seemed to have read before signing up to it.

Jawgap

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Another question is: why world the unionists want to be a part of a United Ireland?

Indeed, especially if it's the type of UI that this patriot, McElduff, advocates.....

https://twitter.com/adstack68/status/949680982462025728

end of the road

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

From about 1986 onward the PIRA did not have the support from their own community and never had the support of the people of the ROI. This didn't stop the murdering terrorists though. BTW, there's a difference between having support and being feared.

And as for your theory about the US and GB forcing UI, you are talking through your hoop.

the provos who were freedom fighters (bar the few elements who did commit terrorism via targeting civilians) had a lot of support from people in the ROI. plenty of people supported them, even if they didn't admit to it.
the theory that the EU and britain would "encourage" reunification isn't "talking through one's hoop" but a very possible theory.
the loyalist extremists are not going to be able to sustain a campaign like that of the troubles.

Obi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: »

Absolutely not, I'm Irish and would not want the 6 counties back.

The amount of hassle it would cause and the cost !!

NAh, keep them in the UK thanks.

the cost would be small. it's blown out of proportion and dragged out as a last ditch attempt as to barely scrape together an argument against reunification is there is no argument against it.

Fr_Dougal

end of the road wrote: »

the provos who were freedom fighters (bar the few elements who did commit terrorism via targeting civilians) had a lot of support from people in the ROI. plenty of people supported them, even if they didn't admit to it.
the theory that the EU and britain would "encourage" reunification isn't "talking through one's hoop" but a very possible theory.
the loyalist extremists are not going to be able to sustain a campaign like that of the troubles.



the cost would be small. it's blown out of proportion and dragged out as a last ditch attempt as to barely scrape together an argument against reunification is there is no argument against it.

They were terrorists, not freedom fighters.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the provos who were freedom fighters (bar the few elements who did commit terrorism via targeting civilians) had a lot of support from people in the ROI. plenty of people supported them, even if they didn't admit to it.
the theory that the EU and britain would "encourage" reunification isn't "talking through one's hoop" but a very possible theory.
the loyalist extremists are not going to be able to sustain a campaign like that of the troubles.



the cost would be small. it's blown out of proportion and dragged out as a last ditch attempt as to barely scrape together an argument against reunification is there is no argument against it.

So under a post about Kingsmill you write that the Provos were freedom fighters?

What about the murdering of Gardai and unarmed Irish soldiers? What were those who murdered fellow Irishmen?

FrancieBrady

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

They were terrorists, not freedom fighters.

What is a 'terrorist'?