Limerick GAA Discussion Part 2

PeggyShippen

Just very hard to see how Kiely can let Gillane off after what happened last year. I think we might not see the Patrickswell man this year.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117043#Comment_120117043

Casey's pace seemed to be a little off with Na Piarsaigh; hopefully, it's temporary.

PeggyShippen

Peter Casey never had pace. He's one of those small ,skillful players that isn't fast. He times his runs brilliantly. Joe Deane wasn't quick either but he times his runs amazingly well

Looks like Reidy will be on the frees all year now. How do people feel about that?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118485#Comment_120118485

Pure speculation on your part so it's hard to "feel" anything about it. We don't even know it Reidy will start most games.

High bike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117837#Comment_120117837

The very same way as ther county managers did with players when hey stepped out of line

lukin

There is a stereotype of Limerick people being involved in criminal activity (maybe an unfair stereotype). This Limerick team are not exactly doing a lot to dispel that stereotype are they? Just saying.

High bike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118690#Comment_120118690

Is that just your own opinion or have u stats to back it up??

raindodger

Dont know what happened in latest incident or what instructions players are under at this time of year re there social life.But would guess will be treated differently because pat ryans was in the middle of a championship block of matches.

Are we asking to much for all players to be :role models: when the reason we scrutinize them is they are just good hurlers?

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118485#Comment_120118485

True, but it looked a little more pronounced against Ballygunner.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118690#Comment_120118690

"Just saying"

FFS

letsseehere14

I dont think the average person is are asking too much of players. Asking them to keep the head down, enjoy yourself but keep things civil is not asking too much in my book.

If I had any criticism of Kielys management over the last 6 to 7 years it would be two things. And trust me, he deserves very very little criticism after what he has done for hurling in the county.

• A click has developed of undroppables. Granted they are the best we have, but we are relying on the same 13 or 14 for every game for heading towards 5 or 6 years now. Now as much as that is a slight criticism, it is also admittedly a very weak one given what we have won but it leaves very little room for anyone else to really stake a place for themselves and that in time will lead to some people not developing and others getting too comfortable.
• The 2nd comment on Kiely I have is that for all the talk about the discipline he brings, there has been a long and growing list of incidents on and off the field and as much as they have been dealt with, there is also the sense that they have been brushed under the carpet at the same time. I feel it is time a proper example is made and there is one person on that squad that now deserves it.

With Gillane alone, from my knowledge this is now the 6th issue Kiely has had to deal with him with. An issue on a trip in late 19 and again before Christmas; Gillane was also needlessly sent off in 2018 against Cork, was dropped for the Munster final in 2021 as some form of discipline, should have been sent off in that final 5 mins after coming on and should have been sent off again last year.

The 2021 Munster final was an eye opener for me. What had he done to be dropped, and then 5 mins after coming on to let Kiely down again in such a manner was atrocious behaviour in my book. He won us that game in the 15 mins after half time scoring 5 and setting up 1-3 but should not have been still on the pitch. That left Kiely in the unenviable position that he had disciplined him, had to turned to him in our time of need and was let down by him again almost immediately but at the same time showed that he could not be dropped again due to what he brings to the table.

At this stage the question I would ask is, can we cope without him? If the county board sits Kiely down and asks him that very question I think the answer will be yes we can, and if we can then he has to be let go. Morrissey, Lynch, Hegarty, Hayes, Casey, Flanagan with Reidy, Boylan, O'Neill, English backup. Plenty there without him and we would still rightly be AI favourites.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120436#Comment_120120436

If you think examples need to be made of players for getting a few red cards ?

As far as I am aware the crap on that trip was the only thing he ever needed disciplining for by the backroom team.

He was dropped in 21 because his form was poor and in 18 he did stupidly retaliate but the clue is in the word. He retaliated (not instigated) after getting the shte battered out of him all game. I don't know what you are on about with your shoulda, woulda, coulda red cards.

As for the clique Kiely has tried a ton of players but the fact is most of the regular starting 15 are just better. We never had more than 8 of the 21 final winning side in the league last year and no one really put their hand up. The likes of Boylan and English have so far not shown they are ready to unseat a starter and sane for the backs. It's not through a lack of trying.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120628#Comment_120120628

Agree with this. Plenty have been given the chance to cement a starting place in the 1st team and failed. Gillane is a huge part of our success over the years. He's like an assassin. A real nuisance for defenders with that predatory instinct.

letsseehere14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120628#Comment_120120628

Believe it or not this conversation isn't unique, and has happened with the likes of Austin Gleeson at Waterford bar one main difference, the off field stuff . Also its more than just a few red cards in my eyes. Its the frequency and circumstances around them but the addition of the off field problems tip the scales for me.

From what I know, when he was dropped in 21 it was because the caused of his poor form lay solely with himself, some players hit poor form even working as hard as they can. That wasnt the case with him. When he was then called upon he repaid Kiely by swiping out 5mins in a Munster final when we were losing and he was needed most. Thats the circumstance that makes it much worse and just because he got away with it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. But even then, just 6 games later he followed this up with another red against Clare and then again 4 games after that in the round robin. He's 27 now not 21, if anything theyre becoming more common with age not less. Theyre not 2 yellows, or a mistimed tackle or persistent fouling, but wild swings completely within his control. So no, not just a few red cards in my book. The calculation now is does his talent pay off this risk plus his off field issues. Can we win it without him or not.

I admitted the best players are being picked, and I will admit others haven't pulled up trees, its a really tricky situation to be in, but a worry I have is that others haven't been given a fairer chance and as such have not developed as well as they could. We haven't taken the league seriously for the last 2 years. When we are not going anywhere near as hard as other teams it makes it all the more harder for others trying to break through. And it was not only 8 from the 21 final playing league last year. A very quick search shows 11 of them started against Offaly, Galway, and Clare in last years league! Considering Casey was out injured as well at the time. But like I said this is a very very slight criticism given the success but it is surely something we have to keep an eye on. One or two really have to make a push and/or be given more of a chance for a starting spot if we are to maintain this past this year in my book. If they are not good enough then are we just driving directly towards a cliff edge? Having waited so many years to take this step up to a level where we compete every year it would be very disheartening for it to be so fleeting.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124784#Comment_120124784

Your interpretation of 21 is very different to mine. I saw a player who responded to being dropped by pulling his socks up ripping Tipp apart and has hardly looked back since.

Every game himself and Hegarty played last year they were slapped around the place on and off the ball so maybe it's those defenders and refs that need dragging over the coals.

As for this latest incident much like on the pitch all the versions of the story I have heard involve Gillane not starting it.

I'm not exactly sure how you want us to take the league seriously but also blood players. If we take it seriously we put out our best 15. Not a lot we can do about young fellas not being as good as an absolute golden generation but our underage teams are competing well.

2021 Munster final is very straight forward; Four into three just doesn't go.

Since 2018 one of Aaron Gillane, Graeme Mulcahy, Séamus Flanagan and Peter Casey has been on the bench. All four are proven reliable starters. There was no disciplinary issue involved in the team selection that day - it was strictly down to form. When things weren't working out on the day the form selection was sacrificed for the tried and trusted with the introduction of Morrissey and Gillane before half time. Gillane was just dropped because it had been felt the other three were in better form. I know he's had a few issues but the speculation here is off the mark.

The incident with the player who was dropped last year - there is a misconception he was dropped for the initial altercation. Not true. The issue was with how he conducted himself after the incident. The incident itself was seen as a case of him acting in defence. (Note - no charges brought...) But he apparently was uncooperative/belligerent when directed to leave by staff/bouncers and this is why gardaí became involved. That changed it from a "You could have handled that better, take a week or two to reflect on this and come back to us" scenario to a being dropped for the rest of the championship scenario.

There has been at least 50 championship panellists since 2018. Worth noting there have been no issues with at least 90%+ of those players. There is an element of tarring them all with the same brush here. That comes with the territory of being at the top. A price I am happy to pay for success. The fact of the matter is though that almost all of those players are great role models and a credit to the county.

Some lads do need to be told though to walk away from certain situations. A handful of situations have occurred, and based what I have learned they have all been situations where they have finished a fight that they didn't instigate. That's not defending them - it's still not acceptable. The message needs to be hit home that the best form of self defence is to remove oneself from the situation. Force is only acceptable as a last resort, and again should be used as a means to remove oneself from the situation. It should never be about winning.

Gillane - he's harmless, but not the smartest in certain situations. He can be made to react and is targeted as such. You'll see it every single game he plays, his marker will be hanging off him, pulling all the usual tricks which are par for the course for a lot of corner backs. He get's a lot of "special" treatment. And he has reacted from time to time.

From what I have heard - exclusion from the holiday was the punishment - and he is expected back involved for the league campaign.

lim4ev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128474#Comment_120128474

you see the issue is when there's drink on board all rite and reason go out the door I'm talking in general as I have no clue what happened but would guess its probably blown out of all proportions

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132327#Comment_120132327

The difference these days is social media, what's app groups etc. Stuff like this could have been easily enough kept in house previously, alot harder to do that now. Lads need to be mindful of this weather they like it or not.

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128474#Comment_120128474

How come the medal presentation of munster and league medals at the end of 2019 was cancelled?

High bike

Great to see Pat Ryan back,well overdue

PeggyShippen

As a person and for him it's good that Pat is back. For the genuine good of the squad he's a help although he ll never nail done a starting position.

I do agree with some posters that this golden period will end as dramatically as it started if some change of personnel don't start coming through. Like will Cathal O Neill become a starter, Colin Coughlan isn't starting in the Fitzgibbon . Adam English has all the attributes but he's young and he drifts out if games alarmingly in my view. I'd have called up William Henn. I see enough in him to coach him onto the next level. What about O Dailaigh for Monaleen..Is he worth a look? One school in the Harty and most of the best players from Clare. The Whole full forward line is from Cratloe for gods sake. 1 player on the UL Fitzgibbon team...1.

The problem is this is an almost impossible team to break in to. It’s not the case at all that Kiely and co aren’t giving new lads enough of an opportunity.

Cathal O’Neill - which one of Hegarty, Hayes, Morrisey, Gillane, Flanagan and Mulcahy deserved to be dropped last year? Mulcahy turns 33 this year but we have the return to full fitness of Lynch and Casey to factor in. It’s going to be incredibly difficult for O’Neill to nail down a starting spot.

Colin Coughlan - which one of Byrnes, Hannon or Dan Morrissey deserved to be dropped?

Honestly I think Kiely and his selectors are only being fair on those who have been performing. They have been very generous in handing out game time in pre season and the league to fringe players.

The fact is our generation of players born in 1994/1995/1996 is truly once in a lifetime stuff.

The senior team in 2014 were agonisingly pipped by Kilkenny in that semi final in the monsoon. They emptied themselves that day and it still wasn’t enough, and that killed that team, the belief was gone, they were never the same again. At the same time the underage conveyor belt was in the middle of supply the county with an exceptional generation of underage players. The way was effectively clear for them to take their places on an effectively broken senior team.

The conveyor belt now isn’t as strong but is still producing some good prospects but the way isn’t clear at all for them to claim places on the senior team.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142668#Comment_120142668

The current starting 15 almost won 15 All Stars in 2021. We need guys coming up to replace some of the older lads but that doesn't mean the older lads deserve to be dropped.

Quaid and Gannon are some of the oldest but it would be mental to drop them because you are worried about some possible future All Ireland when we have an All Ireland to win now.

PeggyShippen

I'm notvtalking about dropping anyone . I'm talking about developing the next group. Developing replacements for Hannon and Dan Morrissey ect. That means starting new guys in some round Robin games.. league starts aren't enough. My concerns are around ten likes of Coughlan and Robbie Hanley and Costello and even Jerome Boylan. They've all gone back in my opinion ,Coughlan especially. The way its going at the moment Limerick seniors will all retire together and it ll be like going over a cliff.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143453#Comment_120143453

So you want to risk the 4 in a row by risking not getting out of Munster ?

Of course we are playing our best team in championship games. Anything else would be stupid.

Good auld Peggy the expert on every county across 32 threads

billyhead

We have to strike while the irons hot and win as much as we can now. The likes of Cathal O'Neill and Coughlan will still see plenty of league action. I see Pat Ryan played today. Good to have him back.

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143530#Comment_120143530

i said the same up here nearly 10 years ago , unfortunately the man in charge at the time didn't have the brain of john kiely , in fact i am not sure if he had any brain , he let paul kinnerk leave the setup for two years ffs...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143453#Comment_120143453

They have been given plenty of room to develop - a look at the league selections in the last 5 years will show you they’re making around 8 changes to the starting XV for each game in the league.

The simple fact of the matter is there is a gulf in class between the main core of around 20 trusted starting options and everyone else. You have outlined Coughlan, Hanley, Costello (who is actually the third oldest member of the panel) and and Boylan as players who should potentially be starting round robin games; to play them you have to drop some of the established starters.

You can’t have it both ways. You say your not talking about dropping anyone but how on earth do you expect us to make room for developing players without dropping some of the established starters?

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143530#Comment_120143530

Absolutely right. Win what we can while we can- we were long enough in the doldrums and will be again, but for the moment we should go for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120136016#Comment_120136016

Because of the incident which happened while the squad were in the USA for the Fenway Classic.

In the context of the post you’re replying to I think it’s safe to assume you’re pointing the finger at Gillane here despite the fact he didn’t lay a finger on anyone in that situation.

He saw a fellow panellist and friend having a fight with someone and recorded the incident on his phone. And he shared that recording with friends of his and it went ‘viral’ from there.

The person who was in the actual fight was not invited back on to the 2020 panel and has never returned. I that may have been as a result of disciplinary action or it may have been because he was going to be dropped anyway as he wasn’t looking likely to break on to the first team after a number of years.

It has often been incorrectly claimed that Gillane was actually involved in the fight. He wasn’t. Yes, he probably should not have recorded and shared it and yes it would have been better had he tried to diffuse the situation. But he’s not responsible for the actions of his friends. That fight was 100% on the people who chose to have it. Gillane could absolutely have made better choices there but he didn’t commit any major wrongdoing there either.

The Christmas incident - a lot of people seem to have gone with the ridiculous interpretation of a Clare based Facebook group. He definitely crossed the line. But it wasn’t quite “Man randomly attacks innocent defenceless victim”, two sides to every story definitely applies here. I’d love to say what I’ve recently learned (and seen) but there may possibly be legal issues to consider.